Phoenix, Az. Bicycle on Sidewalk Laws-NEED HELP!



"Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles"
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:JZM4c.38005$%[email protected]...
>
>> So, to me, even if the cyclist was acting legally, he's
>> still an idiot waiting to be killed.
>
>I agree with Mike. It is inherently unsafe to be riding the
>wrong way on the sidewalk. This behavior is only excusable
>for children using their bikes as toys under adult
>supervision; or cyclists at extremely low rate of speeds,
>i.e., at a walking pace, or perhaps "Fred Flintstoning"
> along. When I come out of the transit station downtown,
> I scootle in this fashion for a half block to get to
> the street, for example.

One of my regular routes includes a short section where I
can avoid crossing a busy four lane road twice (and that in
a VERY odd and confusing intersection). I sometimes take the
option of taking the sidewalk for the width of the
intersection (about 100 yards/meters), but I keep in mind
that I am riding in a manner that will prevent many people
from seeing me (approaching most traffic from the wrong
side). I yield to anything and everything when I'm doing
this, and keep my speed down to the point where I can stop
"no matter what".

>Then again, I've spent some time recently in Phoenix, my
>impression is that the city seems to suffer from an
>extremely car-centric design and behavior, and totally
>clueless cyclists. You just want to knock everyone's heads
>together and put some sense in their brains.

First, banging on car hoods, now "knocking heads". ;-)
Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Phoenix is a large city, and isn't as bad as most I've lived
in (in terms of cycling anyway). The east valley (Tempe,
Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert) actually has quite a workable
system of bike facilities including wide, clearly marked
dedicated bike lanes (not "paths") on about half the major
roads. And FWIW, the motorists (in the Phoenix east valley)
seem to be more cognizant of cyclists - but apparently agree
with Claire on the "cluelessness" of the cyclists, as most
will act as if they expect me to run stop signs / traffic
lights, etc. - and are as a result almost annoyingly
acommodating. Most, that is - there are jerks here as well.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
"Luigi de Guzman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:08:49 GMT, "Mike Kruger" <MikeKr@mouse-
> potato.com> wrote:
>
> >The whole Phoenix code, in searchable form, is here:
>
>ivepublish.municode.com/2/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=altmain-
>nf-hitli
st.htm&2.0
> >(this specific link is the result of a search on
> >"sidewalk")
> >
> >Oh, and my previous post may have been a bit snippy.
> >
> >I certainly agree with those who point out that, legal or
> >not, it is imprudent for a bicyclist to ride on the
> >sidewalk in the "wrong"
direction
> >at a high rate of speed.
> >
> >In my pedestrian mode, I'm really tired of people
> >blocking the sidewalks.
>
> Agreed. But now what I want to know is whether or not
> there is a difference between a cyclist and a pedestrian
> on the sidewalk, legally-speaking. If a cyclist on the
> sidewalk is considered a pedestrian moving really really
> fast, that's one thing. If the cyclist is considered a
> vehicle operator who is incidentally permitted to operate
> on the sidewalk (where other vehicles are not permitted),
> then that's qutie another, isn't it?
>
Phoenix code sounds more like your second meaning, as least
as I interpret this part:

"Whenever any person is riding a bicycle upon a sidewalk he
shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian.

(Code 1962, § 37-25.05) "
 
"Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> writes:

> >But is a cyclist on the sidewalk a *pedestrian* that must
> >be yielded to?
>
> A good hair splitting queston. In my opinion, no.
>
> The cyclist wouldn't have been on the sidewalk in the
> first place, it was illegal.

Whether it is legal or not varies from place to place. In
the town I live in, you can ride a bicycle on the
sidewalks everywhere except for two small business
districts. On a few streets, you can use the sidewalk, but
are required to ride in the same direction as traffic
(according to posted signs.)

In this town, many of the streets where you can ride a
bicycle on the sidewalk are residential streets with little
traffic, with the sidewalk usage consisting primarily of
small children riding up and down the sidewalk in front of
their homes, without ever crossing an intersection.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:19:58 +0100, Dalibor Bauernfrajnd
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>no matter if he is allowed to be there, if you hit a
>bicycle with your car, it's gonna be your fault. Also, if a
>bike rams you, it's his fault.

Unless, for example, the bike rams you because you move into
its path having failed to see it.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:53:44 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>SMIDSY? "sorry, mate I didn't see you?"

Correct.

>In any event, Guy, the cyclist was counterflow and moving
>fast on the footpath. Nobody looks for anything there. A
>few of these SMIDSY incidents and I was a confirmed
>vehicular cyclist.

No arguments there - but consider the relative likelihood of
(a) a cyclist failing to see a stationary car and T-boning
it and (b) a car driver failing to see a cyclist and moving
into its path. On balance of probabilities (b) gets it every
time, being the basis of a fair proportion of bike crashes.

Moral: don't ride on the footway.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles"
> ><[email protected]>
wrote
> >in message
> >news:JZM4c.38005$%[email protected]...
> >
> >> So, to me, even if the cyclist was acting legally, he's
> >> still an idiot waiting to be killed.
> >
> >I agree with Mike. It is inherently unsafe to be riding
> >the wrong way on
the
> >sidewalk. This behavior is only excusable for children
> >using their bikes
as
> >toys under adult supervision; or cyclists at extremely
> >low rate of
speeds,
> >i.e., at a walking pace, or perhaps "Fred Flintstoning"
> > along. When I
come
> >out of the transit station downtown, I scootle in this
> >fashion for a half block to get to the street, for
> >example.
>
> One of my regular routes includes a short section where I
> can avoid crossing a busy four lane road twice (and that
> in a VERY odd and confusing intersection). I sometimes
> take the option of taking the sidewalk for the width of
> the intersection (about 100 yards/meters), but I keep in
> mind that I am riding in a manner that will prevent many
> people from seeing me (approaching most traffic from the
> wrong side). I yield to anything and everything when I'm
> doing this, and keep my speed down to the point where I
> can stop "no matter what".
>
> >Then again, I've spent some time recently in Phoenix, my
> >impression is
that
> >the city seems to suffer from an extremely car-centric
> >design and
behavior,
> >and totally clueless cyclists. You just want to knock
> >everyone's heads together and put some sense in their
> >brains.
>
> First, banging on car hoods, now "knocking heads". ;-)
> Tsk, tsk, tsk.
>
> Phoenix is a large city, and isn't as bad as most I've
> lived in (in terms of cycling anyway). The east valley
> (Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert) actually has quite a
> workable system of bike facilities including wide, clearly
> marked dedicated bike lanes (not "paths") on about half
> the major roads. And FWIW, the motorists (in the Phoenix
> east valley) seem to be more cognizant of cyclists - but
> apparently agree with Claire on the "cluelessness" of the
> cyclists, as most will act as if they expect me to run
> stop signs / traffic lights, etc. - and are as a result
> almost annoyingly acommodating. Most, that is - there are
> jerks here as well.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home
> of the $695 ti frame

I'm in Tempe. The city puts bike lanes on low traffic side
streets where they're not need tthem to begin with. The
majority of the major roads do not have bike lanes and has
traffic speeds of 45 - 55MPH except during 'rush' hour.

If I was just out for a joy ride, then yes, there are bike
routes I can travel. But I use a bicycle as a means of
transportation to actually go to places. Currently I get at
least 2 persistant car honkers and about 1 person yelling
out their window per mile.

The city puts up signs that say ' Bicycle Friendly
Community', but that certainly doesn't refer to the people.
 
"Bobby" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote

>> Phoenix is a large city, and isn't as bad as most I've
>> lived in (in terms of cycling anyway). The east valley
>> (Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert) actually has quite a
>> workable system of bike facilities including wide,
>> clearly marked dedicated bike lanes (not "paths") on
>> about half the major roads. And FWIW, the motorists (in
>> the Phoenix east valley) seem to be more cognizant of
>> cyclists - but apparently agree with Claire on the
>> "cluelessness" of the cyclists, as most will act as if
>> they expect me to run stop signs / traffic lights, etc. -
>> and are as a result almost annoyingly acommodating. Most,
>> that is - there are jerks here as well.

>I'm in Tempe. The city puts bike lanes on low traffic side
>streets where they're not need tthem to begin with. The
>majority of the major roads do not have bike lanes and has
>traffic speeds of 45 - 55MPH except during 'rush' hour.

OK, I say "about half" and you say "the majority do not"...

>If I was just out for a joy ride, then yes, there are bike
>routes I can travel. But I use a bicycle as a means of
>transportation to actually go to places.

I do too - to the tune of 5-7,000 miles per year. The
majority of it is on bike lanes. I guess you must live in a
part of the Tempe I've never ridden in (though I didn't
realize there were any).

>Currently I get at least 2 persistant car honkers and about
>1 person yelling out their window per mile.

Now I KNOW you are riding in a part of Tempe I've never
ridden in. I can't remember the last time this happened
to me. I'd say this happens to me once every four to
six months.

>The city puts up signs that say ' Bicycle Friendly
>Community', but that certainly doesn't refer to the people.

Same planet, different world.

If the rest of you would like to find how the Phoenix area
compares to where YOU live in terms of planning for
bicycles, check out their excellent online document at:
http://www.mcdot.maricopa.gov/bicycle/BikePlan/bikeplan.PDF

If you'd like to see how "sparse" the bike
lanes/paths/routes are check out the map on page 22 (the
dark lines are all bike lanes/paths/routes").

I've lived in a lot of places, and other than Beijing, the
Phoenix east valley has the best bike facilities. I'm sure
there are some out there that are better... but
considering the cost of building the bike lanes (averages
well over $100K per mile), I'm surprised there are as many
as there are.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of
the $695 ti frame
 
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:08:49 GMT, "Mike Kruger"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In my pedestrian mode, I'm really tired of people blocking
>the sidewalks.

I walk about eight blocks each way in downtown DC. The ones
that block open sight intersections, especially crosswalks,
irritate me. OTOH, alleys opening into places like Q street,
I let it go - better they block the sidewalk for a moment
than get killed entering the intersection blind.

I borrowed a car from my brother long ago - some long hooded
Ford from my brother (some Torino deriviative - Elite
maybe?). I was coming out of an alley in downtown Wichita
and found it literally impossible to see traffic without
putting the front of the car into the roadway (by a small
bit). Was rather glad to get back to my Fiat 124.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...
 
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:19:58 +0100, Dalibor Bauernfrajnd
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Don't know the exact laws there, but, no matter if he is
>allowed to be there, if you hit a bicycle with your car,
>it's gonna be your fault. Also, if a bike rams you, it's
>his fault. Then everything else.

That would probably be the first decider - even if riding on
the sidewalk is illegal. If the bicycle is in the grill, it
would be on the motorist to prove whether or not the cyclist
was moving too fast to be avoided; cyclist wedged in door,
the cyclist starts at the disadvantage.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...
 
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