PING: Margaret - Thanksgiving Begging

"Michael "Dog3"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Found a few interesting articles. Here's one in the NYT. This is an
excerpt from the article. The rest of the article is unrelated to the
Thanksgiving Begging tradition. I found a lot of information on the
tradition. Apparently it faded out in favor of 'Trick or Treating' but
I'm not positive on that yet.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=
990CE7D71F3FF936A35750C0A963958260

Thanksgiving Begging

Q. When I was growing up in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, in the 1950's, little
was made of Halloween trick-or-treating. Instead, we went out, dressed as
Indians or ragamuffins, on Thanksgiving morning, to ask neighbors:
"Anything for Thanksgiving?" We were given coins, apples, nuts, candy,
etc. This would last till about noon. Can any "old Brooklynite" comment
on the custom of Thanksgiving begging? How widespread was it? How did it
start? Why did it end? A. Its exact beginnings are hard to pinpoint, but
it probably dates back to at least the early part of the century, says
Prof. Jack Santino, an expert on holidays at the Department of Popular
Culture at Bowling Green University.

Mr. Santino has spoken to Jewish and Italian Brooklynites who remember
such holiday begging in their immigrant communities as far back as the
early 1920's, and he believes it may date back even further. The
tradition, he says, probably stems from a European tradition of symbolic
begging on holidays, a custom still palpable in trick-or-treating on
Halloween, begging for pennies on Guy Fawkes Day, and even in Christmas
carolling. Mr. Santino says that the booty from Thanksgiving begging was
sometimes shared with the less fortunate in communities, but it was never
really integrated with the idea of Thanksgiving.

Brooklyn, with a large European immigrant population, was a natural
breeding ground for this custom, which probably was practiced on
Thanksgiving simply because it was an already established American
holiday.

The custom died out as trick-or-treating became more popular after World
War II, though a Ragamuffin Parade, established in 1966, is still active
in Bay Ridge. The parade, usually held on the last Saturday of September
or the first Saturday of October, attracts thousands of children in
costumes, and more than a few ragamuffins. This year it will be held
Sept. 30. JESSE MCKINLEY

Michael

--
Last words spoken before execution . . .

"Well, gentlemen, you are about to see a baked Appel."
Executed in electric chair in New York.
~~ George Appel, d. 1928

Send email to: michael at lonergan dot us dot com

Along the same vein, Michael, my eldest and his friends who took band in
school, used to roam the streets in our neighborhood when we lived in
Philly, playing Christmas Carols. They always came home with cash in hand,
saying how people paid them to play.....we always said they paid them to
STOP playing (snort).
Miss Christmas in the city. Although it is not too bad in the country.
-ginny

"Virginia Tadrzynski" <[email hidden]> dropped this
news:[email hidden]: in rec.food.cooking

Quoted message said:

Along the same vein, Michael, my eldest and his friends who took band
in school, used to roam the streets in our neighborhood when we lived
in Philly, playing Christmas Carols. They always came home with cash
in hand, saying how people paid them to play.....we always said they
paid them to STOP playing (snort).
Miss Christmas in the city. Although it is not too bad in the
country. -ginny

I really miss the holidays in the city. That is about the only thing I
really miss about the city though. The holiday seem to bring out the best
in people, even the older crumudgeony types. Here in the burbs it's pretty
dull during the holidays. All hustle and bustle and not much in the way of
enjoying your neighbor's company etc.

Michael <- refuses to give up his garden... EVER.

--
Last words spoken before execution . . .

"Well, gentlemen, you are about to see a baked Appel."
Executed in electric chair in New York.
~~ George Appel, d. 1928

Send email to: michael at lonergan dot us dot com

Michael 'Dog3 said:

Found a few interesting articles. Here's one in the NYT. This is an
excerpt from the article. The rest of the article is unrelated to the
Thanksgiving Begging tradition. I found a lot of information on the
tradition. Apparently it faded out in favor of 'Trick or Treating' but
I'm not positive on that yet.

Thank you. I only remember seeing the little kids in 1940. By 1941,
with everybody knowing that we could not stay out of WW II, there was
low unemployment because the factories were going full steam. The
economy was good and the WW I veterans were no longer seen on so many
corners, selling apples. Thus, children were no longer encouraged, to
beg for pennies, so that they could help put food o the table.

I do not remember Trick or Treaters until several years later, perhaps
in the early 1950's when I lived in a building that had many baby
boomers that were just at the age to start celebrating Halloween with
candy. With so many families from all over the USA having moved to New
York City after the end of WW II, who knows where Trick or Treating came
from, perhaps the Mid-West of the South.

margaret suran said:

Michael 'Dog3 said:

Found a few interesting articles. Here's one in the NYT. This is an
excerpt from the article. The rest of the article is unrelated to
the Thanksgiving Begging tradition. I found a lot of information on
the tradition. Apparently it faded out in favor of 'Trick or
Treating' but I'm not positive on that yet.

Thank you. I only remember seeing the little kids in 1940. By 1941,
with everybody knowing that we could not stay out of WW II, there was
low unemployment because the factories were going full steam. The
economy was good and the WW I veterans were no longer seen on so many
corners, selling apples. Thus, children were no longer encouraged, to
beg for pennies, so that they could help put food o the table.

I do not remember Trick or Treaters until several years later, perhaps
in the early 1950's when I lived in a building that had many baby
boomers that were just at the age to start celebrating Halloween with
candy. With so many families from all over the USA having moved to
New York City after the end of WW II, who knows where Trick or
Treating came from, perhaps the Mid-West of the South.

When I arrived in Baltimore from England in 1946, I encountered two
little tykes at the bus stop. They chanted, "Trikkatree, trikkatree",
and I didn't even know what they were talking about, since I'd never
encountered it before.
They got pretty disgusted; one said to the other, "C'm on - she don't
know nuthin' ", and away they went. I soon learned.

Dora