PING: Mike Jacoubowsky

[Larry Coon]

Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
> yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
> One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
> and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
> fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
> is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
> twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
> do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
> spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
> same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
> to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
don't break in them. The rim should wear out first. How many miles?

As for the repair, spokes shouldn't appear twisted; the correct way to
tighten & loosen them involves holding the bladed section of the spoke with
something (it can be a piece of plastic that you've hacksawed a slot into)
while turning the spoke wrench. That does give me some reason to wonder how
well the job was done, although it's generally not a good idea for me to
second-guess something I haven't seen in real life.

But the wheels aren't on the edge of practicality, so replacing a spoke
isn't rocket science and requires no unusual skill.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Larry Coon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
> yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
> One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
> and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
> fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
> is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
> twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
> do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
> spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
> same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
> to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?
>
> Thanks for any advice.

 

[Larry Coon]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
> X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
> don't break in them.

Well, you can't say THAT any more.

> The rim should wear out first. How many miles?

About 8,000 miles. No significant trauma, save for a crash
about a year ago (wheel came out from under me in a turn).
The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
hub.

> As for the repair, spokes shouldn't appear twisted; the correct way to
> tighten & loosen them involves holding the bladed section of the spoke with
> something (it can be a piece of plastic that you've hacksawed a slot into)
> while turning the spoke wrench. That does give me some reason to wonder how
> well the job was done, although it's generally not a good idea for me to
> second-guess something I haven't seen in real life.

That was the main thing that gave me pause. -I- know to hold
the blade with something (I use bent-jaw, non-serrated needle
nose pliers, like B recommends) and I haven't worked in a shop
in about 25 years. I didn't think there was any excuse for the
spokes to come back like that, so that left me wondering if he
knew what the hell he was doing (and he was the owner & been
in business since the 80's).

He also showed me the hop and said, "that's as good as it's
going to get," which I now interpret as "that's as good as HE
can get it."

> But the wheels aren't on the edge of practicality, so replacing a spoke
> isn't rocket science and requires no unusual skill.

I've never done it with one of these newfangled paired-spoke
wheels, so I didn't know if there was anything special
required, such as stressing the wheel.

 

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>
>>Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
>>X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
>>don't break in them.
>
>
> Well, you can't say THAT any more.
>
>
>>The rim should wear out first. How many miles?
>
>
> About 8,000 miles. No significant trauma, save for a crash
> about a year ago (wheel came out from under me in a turn).
> The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
> seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
> hub.

in that location, it's almost /always/ due to surface damage of some
kind initiating fatigue. a stone for instance can impact a spoke,
apparently superficially, but leave a small gouge with a sufficiently
sharp root to start fatigue right away. once started, you're just
counting load cycles to failure.

>
>
>>As for the repair, spokes shouldn't appear twisted; the correct way to
>>tighten & loosen them involves holding the bladed section of the spoke with
>>something (it can be a piece of plastic that you've hacksawed a slot into)
>>while turning the spoke wrench. That does give me some reason to wonder how
>>well the job was done, although it's generally not a good idea for me to
>>second-guess something I haven't seen in real life.
>
>
> That was the main thing that gave me pause. -I- know to hold
> the blade with something (I use bent-jaw, non-serrated needle
> nose pliers, like B recommends) and I haven't worked in a shop
> in about 25 years. I didn't think there was any excuse for the
> spokes to come back like that, so that left me wondering if he
> knew what the hell he was doing (and he was the owner & been
> in business since the 80's).
>
> He also showed me the hop and said, "that's as good as it's
> going to get," which I now interpret as "that's as good as HE
> can get it."
>
>
>>But the wheels aren't on the edge of practicality, so replacing a spoke
>>isn't rocket science and requires no unusual skill.
>
>
> I've never done it with one of these newfangled paired-spoke
> wheels, so I didn't know if there was anything special
> required, such as stressing the wheel.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
> seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
> hub.

Unlikely the wheel design or building was at fault in this case. Usually a
spoke failure in the middle (as opposed to either where the thread start at
one end or the head is at the other) occurs due to some sort of trauma the
wheel underwent, and generally something where the spoke was impacted and
nicked. Sorry that it failed, but it doesn't sound like something one can
blame the design on; this sort of thing happens as often in a 32-spoke-wheel
as in other designs. Which, fortunately, isn't too often.

> That was the main thing that gave me pause. -I- know to hold
> the blade with something (I use bent-jaw, non-serrated needle
> nose pliers, like B recommends) and I haven't worked in a shop
> in about 25 years. I didn't think there was any excuse for the
> spokes to come back like that, so that left me wondering if he
> knew what the hell he was doing (and he was the owner & been
> in business since the 80's).

It could have been that the other spokes didn't have to be turned much at
all, so the mechanic didn't bother with trying to keep them straight and
simply forgot to twist them back when he was done. It could simply be that
he rushed things a bit and didn't finish the job. I'd like to pretend that
I've never done anything like that, but it wouldn't be truthful. People can
make a mistake now and then and still be a generally good person and maybe
even an excellent mechanic.

> He also showed me the hop and said, "that's as good as it's
> going to get," which I now interpret as "that's as good as HE
> can get it."

Perhaps. Could be one of those things where it takes another 20 minutes to
get a tiny incremental improvement.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Larry Coon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager
>> Race
>> X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes
>> simply
>> don't break in them.
>
> Well, you can't say THAT any more.
>
>> The rim should wear out first. How many miles?
>
> About 8,000 miles. No significant trauma, save for a crash
> about a year ago (wheel came out from under me in a turn).
> The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
> seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
> hub.
>
>> As for the repair, spokes shouldn't appear twisted; the correct way to
>> tighten & loosen them involves holding the bladed section of the spoke
>> with
>> something (it can be a piece of plastic that you've hacksawed a slot
>> into)
>> while turning the spoke wrench. That does give me some reason to wonder
>> how
>> well the job was done, although it's generally not a good idea for me to
>> second-guess something I haven't seen in real life.
>
> That was the main thing that gave me pause. -I- know to hold
> the blade with something (I use bent-jaw, non-serrated needle
> nose pliers, like B recommends) and I haven't worked in a shop
> in about 25 years. I didn't think there was any excuse for the
> spokes to come back like that, so that left me wondering if he
> knew what the hell he was doing (and he was the owner & been
> in business since the 80's).
>
> He also showed me the hop and said, "that's as good as it's
> going to get," which I now interpret as "that's as good as HE
> can get it."
>
>> But the wheels aren't on the edge of practicality, so replacing a spoke
>> isn't rocket science and requires no unusual skill.
>
> I've never done it with one of these newfangled paired-spoke
> wheels, so I didn't know if there was anything special
> required, such as stressing the wheel.

 

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:06:53 -0700, Larry Coon <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
>> X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
>> don't break in them.
>
>Well, you can't say THAT any more.
>
>> The rim should wear out first. How many miles?
>
>About 8,000 miles. No significant trauma, save for a crash
>about a year ago (wheel came out from under me in a turn).
>The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
>seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
>hub.

[snip]

Dear Larry,

As Jim Beam points out, that's a very odd location for an ordinary
spoke failure, three inches from the hub.

About 90% of normal spokes (with elbows) break at the elbow, the rest
at the threads. In the only known spoke fatigue tests over 20 years
ago, 68 spokes broke at the elbow, and 8 broke at the threads, but
none broke in the middle:

http://www.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf

(Search for "stanford" or scroll down to page 10.)

This is why butted spokes work fine--even their thinner midspans are
practically invulnerable in normal use. The parts of a spoke that are
bent during manufacture, assembly, and riding are at its ends.

A spoke that breaks out in its midspan has probably been damaged by a
rock, a chain, or something else that the rider either didn't notice
or else forgot because the spoke fatigued slowly instead of breaking
right away.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Larry Coon]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Unlikely the wheel design or building was at fault in this case. Usually a
> spoke failure in the middle (as opposed to either where the thread start at
> one end or the head is at the other) occurs due to some sort of trauma the
> wheel underwent, and generally something where the spoke was impacted and
> nicked.

Well...you, Jim & Carl gave the same answer....glad to
know that great minds think alike.

I didn't check to be sure at the time, and I no longer have
the spoke, but the break could have been right where it
crossed another spoke. I'm sure if there was a nick there,
as you suggest, then that could have made it worse.

> Sorry that it failed, but it doesn't sound like something one can
> blame the design on; this sort of thing happens as often in a 32-spoke-wheel
> as in other designs. Which, fortunately, isn't too often.

Good -- I was hoping I wasn't counting the miles until the
next loud "ping" sound. And of course, these things never
happen where it's convenient. I was in the middle of a
canyon, pretty far away from home. Why can't these things
happen in my driveway?

(I guess it coulda been worse -- I had just finished
descending a pretty fast hill.)

> It could have been that the other spokes didn't have to be turned much at
> all, so the mechanic didn't bother with trying to keep them straight and
> simply forgot to twist them back when he was done.

He pointed it out to me that they were twisted. It really
seemed like he didn't know to hold them. That was when I
thought "uh oh."

> Perhaps. Could be one of those things where it takes another 20 minutes to
> get a tiny incremental improvement.

I went over it tonight, and got a pretty significant
improvement. (Took 20 minutes, too -- how'd 'ya know?)

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> Sorry that it failed, but it doesn't sound like something one can
>> blame the design on; this sort of thing happens as often in a
>> 32-spoke-wheel
>> as in other designs. Which, fortunately, isn't too often.
>
> Good -- I was hoping I wasn't counting the miles until the
> next loud "ping" sound. And of course, these things never
> happen where it's convenient. I was in the middle of a
> canyon, pretty far away from home. Why can't these things
> happen in my driveway?

It's not that big a deal to handle a broken spoke on a paired-spoke wheel,
particularly one that uses normal spoke nipples. Just loosen the spoke next
to the one that broke, and you'll have a bit of hop at that point, but it
will pass through the brake pads just fine.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Larry Coon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Unlikely the wheel design or building was at fault in this case. Usually
>> a
>> spoke failure in the middle (as opposed to either where the thread start
>> at
>> one end or the head is at the other) occurs due to some sort of trauma
>> the
>> wheel underwent, and generally something where the spoke was impacted and
>> nicked.
>
> Well...you, Jim & Carl gave the same answer....glad to
> know that great minds think alike.
>
> I didn't check to be sure at the time, and I no longer have
> the spoke, but the break could have been right where it
> crossed another spoke. I'm sure if there was a nick there,
> as you suggest, then that could have made it worse.
>
>> Sorry that it failed, but it doesn't sound like something one can
>> blame the design on; this sort of thing happens as often in a
>> 32-spoke-wheel
>> as in other designs. Which, fortunately, isn't too often.
>
> Good -- I was hoping I wasn't counting the miles until the
> next loud "ping" sound. And of course, these things never
> happen where it's convenient. I was in the middle of a
> canyon, pretty far away from home. Why can't these things
> happen in my driveway?
>
> (I guess it coulda been worse -- I had just finished
> descending a pretty fast hill.)
>
>> It could have been that the other spokes didn't have to be turned much at
>> all, so the mechanic didn't bother with trying to keep them straight and
>> simply forgot to twist them back when he was done.
>
> He pointed it out to me that they were twisted. It really
> seemed like he didn't know to hold them. That was when I
> thought "uh oh."
>
>> Perhaps. Could be one of those things where it takes another 20 minutes
>> to
>> get a tiny incremental improvement.
>
> I went over it tonight, and got a pretty significant
> improvement. (Took 20 minutes, too -- how'd 'ya know?)

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Larry Coon wrote:
> Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
> yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
> One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
> and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
> fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
> is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
> twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
> do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
> spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
> same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
> to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Breaking a spoke is a syptom of an 'ill' wheel. The spoke broke for a
reason, most likely, the rim has gotten to the point that the spoke
tension is no longer 'even'...

BUT sometimes you can replace one, true round dish and tension and it
will be fine for a 'while' BUT with twisted spokes and a hop, methinks
the bike shop knucklehead did a poor job. NOT a characteristic of Trek
dealers but of bike shop techs in general.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
> > yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
> > One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
> > and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
> > fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
> > is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
> > twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
> > do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
> > spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
> > same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
> > to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?
> >
> > Thanks for any advice.
>
> Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
> X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
> don't break in them. The rim should wear out first. How many miles?

Easy Mike, we don't sell them at all but have seen probably 4-5 broken
spokes on these in the last 6 months. 'The rim should wear out first'
doesn't really apply to just about any wheel these days...
>
> As for the repair, spokes shouldn't appear twisted; the correct way to
> tighten & loosen them involves holding the bladed section of the spoke with
> something (it can be a piece of plastic that you've hacksawed a slot into)
> while turning the spoke wrench. That does give me some reason to wonder how
> well the job was done, although it's generally not a good idea for me to
> second-guess something I haven't seen in real life.
>
> But the wheels aren't on the edge of practicality, so replacing a spoke
> isn't rocket science and requires no unusual skill.

But it does involve some skill, lacking in the OPs bike shop.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Larry Coon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Broke a spoke on a '04 Bontrager Race X-Lite (rear, drive side)
> > yesterday (I know -- this is my last set of boutique wheels).
> > One of the local Trek/Bontrager dealers had the spoke in stock
> > and was willing to do it as a while-you-wait job. It's now
> > fixed, but I'm concerned about the quality of the fix. There
> > is now a slight hop in the rim, and a couple of the spokes are
> > twisted. With one of these wheels, is it really important to
> > do everything a specific way, or is it that once I break a
> > spoke on one of these, the wheel probably will never be the
> > same? How concerned should I be, and should I take the wheel
> > to someone who -really- knows what he/she is doing?
> >
> > Thanks for any advice.

 

[Larry Coon]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> It's not that big a deal to handle a broken spoke on a paired-spoke wheel,
> particularly one that uses normal spoke nipples. Just loosen the spoke next
> to the one that broke, and you'll have a bit of hop at that point, but it
> will pass through the brake pads just fine.

My kingdom for a spoke wrench. Guess I gotta start carrying one
when I ride -- I'm more of a minimalist when it comes to what I
take with me.

I -was- able to get home okay. It still hit the brake pads with
just the QR open, but when I loosened the cable clamp & opened
the caliper all the way it didn't hit. I just rode slowly, so it
was a long ride home.

 

[Larry Coon]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> It's not that big a deal to handle a broken spoke on a paired-spoke wheel,
> particularly one that uses normal spoke nipples. Just loosen the spoke next
> to the one that broke, and you'll have a bit of hop at that point, but it
> will pass through the brake pads just fine.

BTW, thanks for all your help! Same for Jim, Carl & Peter.

 

[Larry Coon]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Breaking a spoke is a syptom of an 'ill' wheel. The spoke broke for a
> reason, most likely, the rim has gotten to the point that the spoke
> tension is no longer 'even'...
>
> BUT sometimes you can replace one, true round dish and tension and it
> will be fine for a 'while' BUT with twisted spokes and a hop, methinks
> the bike shop knucklehead did a poor job. NOT a characteristic of Trek
> dealers but of bike shop techs in general.

Thanks, Peter.

Yeah, like I said, it wasn't a LBS I frequent. The two
closest Trek/Bontrager dealers didn't have the spoke in
stock, so I started calling around & found this guy, who
was about 30 miles away. Shop was kind of a hole in the
wall in the middle of an industrial complex, and the
inventory looked like none of it had moved for a while.
Nice enough guy (we were swapping stories about meeting
Ernesto Colnago), but I didn't walk away feeling good
about his work. Like I said, I was able to get it a lot
truer (and no twisted spokes) when I went over the wheel
on my own -- and I don't even own a truing stand any more.

Given what you said, is it worth it to have somebody with
a tensiometer check it out?

(And if you ever want to set up shop in the republic of
Orange County, CA, I'll be happy to scout out locations
for you.)

 

[Sorni]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Breaking a spoke is a syptom of an 'ill' wheel. The spoke broke for a
> reason, most likely, the rim has gotten to the point that the spoke
> tension is no longer 'even'...

But what if a crash or rock or something nicks a spoke and weakens it (as
appears to be the case in this case)? Can't the wheel still be "healthy"
despite having a sick (or injured or broken) spoke?

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> My kingdom for a spoke wrench. Guess I gotta start carrying one
> when I ride -- I'm more of a minimalist when it comes to what I
> take with me.

I carry one of the Topeak Hexus tools (used to be called the Hummer), which
has just about everything. It's a bit heavier than what I'd need for myself,
but even the chain tool has come in handy when I've come across people
broken down out on the road or trail.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Larry Coon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> It's not that big a deal to handle a broken spoke on a paired-spoke
>> wheel,
>> particularly one that uses normal spoke nipples. Just loosen the spoke
>> next
>> to the one that broke, and you'll have a bit of hop at that point, but it
>> will pass through the brake pads just fine.
>
> My kingdom for a spoke wrench. Guess I gotta start carrying one
> when I ride -- I'm more of a minimalist when it comes to what I
> take with me.
>
> I -was- able to get home okay. It still hit the brake pads with
> just the QR open, but when I loosened the cable clamp & opened
> the caliper all the way it didn't hit. I just rode slowly, so it
> was a long ride home.

 

[Mike DeMicco]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
> > X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
> > don't break in them. The rim should wear out first. How many miles?
>
> Easy Mike, we don't sell them at all but have seen probably 4-5 broken
> spokes on these in the last 6 months. 'The rim should wear out first'
> doesn't really apply to just about any wheel these days...

Perhaps he meant the rim should crack and fail at the spoke holes before
you break a spoke, which is what happened to my Bontrager Race Lite
Aero's after only 3600 miles. Different rim than the OPs, however.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email protected]>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> Easy Mike, we don't sell them at all but have seen probably 4-5 broken
>> spokes on these in the last 6 months. 'The rim should wear out first'
>> doesn't really apply to just about any wheel these days...
>
> Perhaps he meant the rim should crack and fail at the spoke holes before
> you break a spoke, which is what happened to my Bontrager Race Lite
> Aero's after only 3600 miles. Different rim than the OPs, however.

Exactly! Yeah, I know, I've seen that one. Definitely an issue with one of
the extrusions, which has been fixed. Rims just don't seem all that
difficult to make, so why all the issues? Like the Open Pros with the
clicking eyelets. It's just an extrusion with eyelets, right? Seems like the
manufacturers ought to get something completely right once, and then not
change anything.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mike DeMicco" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> > Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager
>> > Race
>> > X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes
>> > simply
>> > don't break in them. The rim should wear out first. How many miles?
>>
>> Easy Mike, we don't sell them at all but have seen probably 4-5 broken
>> spokes on these in the last 6 months. 'The rim should wear out first'
>> doesn't really apply to just about any wheel these days...
>
> Perhaps he meant the rim should crack and fail at the spoke holes before
> you break a spoke, which is what happened to my Bontrager Race Lite
> Aero's after only 3600 miles. Different rim than the OPs, however.
>
> --
> Mike DeMicco <[email protected]>

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >> Easy Mike, we don't sell them at all but have seen probably 4-5 broken
> >> spokes on these in the last 6 months. 'The rim should wear out first'
> >> doesn't really apply to just about any wheel these days...
> >
> > Perhaps he meant the rim should crack and fail at the spoke holes before
> > you break a spoke, which is what happened to my Bontrager Race Lite
> > Aero's after only 3600 miles. Different rim than the OPs, however.
>
> Exactly! Yeah, I know, I've seen that one. Definitely an issue with one of
> the extrusions, which has been fixed. Rims just don't seem all that
> difficult to make, so why all the issues? Like the Open Pros with the
> clicking eyelets. It's just an extrusion with eyelets, right? Seems like the
> manufacturers ought to get something completely right once, and then not
> change anything.
>

But then they wouldn't have anything new and "improved" (lighter!
faster! slicker!) to sell next year. Making a durable product that
doesn't change for the sake of change, what a quaint, old-fashioned
idea!

 

[A Muzi]

>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> Larry: I'm a bit concerned as to why you broke a spoke in the Bontrager Race
>>> X-Lite. We've sold many hundreds of pair of those wheels, and spokes simply
>>> don't break in them.

Larry Coon <[email protected] wrote:
>> Well, you can't say THAT any more.

>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> The rim should wear out first. How many miles?

Larry Coon <[email protected]>
> wrote: >> About 8,000 miles. No significant trauma, save for a crash
>> about a year ago (wheel came out from under me in a turn).
>> The spoke broke during a climb (about 7% grade, and I was
>> seated & pedaling steady). The break was about 3" from the
>> hub.

[email protected] wrote:
-snip-
> About 90% of normal spokes (with elbows) break at the elbow, the rest
> at the threads. In the only known spoke fatigue tests over 20 years
> ago, 68 spokes broke at the elbow, and 8 broke at the threads, but
> none broke in the middle:
>
> http://www.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf
>
> (Search for "stanford" or scroll down to page 10.)
>
> This is why butted spokes work fine--even their thinner midspans are
> practically invulnerable in normal use. The parts of a spoke that are
> bent during manufacture, assembly, and riding are at its ends.
>
> A spoke that breaks out in its midspan has probably been damaged by a
> rock, a chain, or something else that the rider either didn't notice
> or else forgot because the spoke fatigued slowly instead of breaking
> right away.

Agreed, that's an anomalous break. Gee I missed you guys!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Bill Sornson]

A Muzi wrote:

> Gee I missed you guys!

Hey, look what the cat dragged (back) in!

Where ya been, AM? (Too lazy to go look up in case it's "Googlable" )