Please critique this h*lm*t letter...



?

_

Guest
I'm about to send off a little rocket...

Local hospital has some pamphlets prominently bearing the 85% figure. I
have so far written a few polite letters which have found out who is
responsible for the pamphlets, and that they know where the 85% comes from.

Comments welcome:
-------------------------
Dear (redacted):

You may recall some correspondence concerning the source of the 85% figure
headlined in several pamphlets ((redacted) and (redacted)) produced and
distributed by (redacted). In your last letter to me, you said that that
figure came from the paper written by Thompson, Riviera and Thompson (TRT).

(redacted), have you read this paper? I sincerely hope that you have not -
and my reasons for saying this will follow in a few paragraphs...

The 1987 TRT paper has been the subject of much criticism. It was of a
type known as "case-control", where two sub-populations drawn from the
population at risk are compared. The major flaw is that of a large
difference in helmet-wearing rates between the control group and the
population at risk, but there are others - a small sample size, the use of
odds ratios rather than risk ratios to generate a claimed "reduction of
risk", and the ignoring of other factors that may have skewed the results.
As an example of this last point, using the data that TRT present, and
using their own methods which produced the 85% figure, it can be concluded
with equal strength that wearing a helmet reduced the percentage of leg
injuries by over 70%.

In contrast to case-control studies, time-series studies take data from an
entire population and compare what happens when a change in helmet wearing
rates occurs. Such studies have been done; they typically are much better
designed, and involve much greater sample sizes; and they typically show
results very different to the TRT paper. TRT's extraodinary results have
never been replicated.

Now, the above is the basis for my hope that you have not read the TRT
paper. It cannot be relied upon. A UK charity called the Bicycle Helmet
Initiative Trust (which name gives a most unfortunate acronym) was the
subject of a complaint to the UK Advertising Standards Agency following
their use of the 85% figure, and they have agreed not to do so in future.
If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts about
either

a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or

b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours sincerely,
 
_ writtificated

> The 1987 TRT paper has been the subject of much criticism.


Was this the one that had the mathematical error that would have reduced
the supposed benefit of helmet wearing to 65% or so, or have I completely
mis-remembered?

I would drop this bit:

If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts
about either

a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or

b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.


It comes across as quite rude and patronising (I appreciate that this is
why you included it :) and may backfire.
 
"_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>
> Local hospital has some pamphlets prominently bearing the 85% figure. I
> have so far written a few polite letters which have found out who is
> responsible for the pamphlets, and that they know where the 85% comes
> from.
>
> Comments welcome:
> -------------------------
> Dear (redacted):
>
> You may recall some correspondence concerning the source of the 85% figure
> headlined in several pamphlets ((redacted) and (redacted)) produced and
> distributed by (redacted). In your last letter to me, you said that that
> figure came from the paper written by Thompson, Riviera and Thompson
> (TRT).
>
> (redacted), have you read this paper? I sincerely hope that you have
> not -
> and my reasons for saying this will follow in a few paragraphs...
>
> The 1987 TRT paper has been the subject of much criticism. It was of a
> type known as "case-control", where two sub-populations drawn from the
> population at risk are compared. The major flaw is that of a large
> difference in helmet-wearing rates between the control group and the
> population at risk, but there are others - a small sample size, the use of
> odds ratios rather than risk ratios to generate a claimed "reduction of
> risk", and the ignoring of other factors that may have skewed the results.
> As an example of this last point, using the data that TRT present, and
> using their own methods which produced the 85% figure, it can be concluded
> with equal strength that wearing a helmet reduced the percentage of leg
> injuries by over 70%.
>
> In contrast to case-control studies, time-series studies take data from an
> entire population and compare what happens when a change in helmet wearing
> rates occurs. Such studies have been done; they typically are much better
> designed, and involve much greater sample sizes; and they typically show
> results very different to the TRT paper. TRT's extraodinary results have
> never been replicated.
>
> Now, the above is the basis for my hope that you have not read the TRT
> paper. It cannot be relied upon. A UK charity called the Bicycle Helmet
> Initiative Trust (which name gives a most unfortunate acronym) was the
> subject of a complaint to the UK Advertising Standards Agency following
> their use of the 85% figure, and they have agreed not to do so in future.
> If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts about
> either
>
> a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or
>
> b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.
>
> I look forward to your reply.
>
> Yours sincerely,


Looks pretty good to me, if a bit accusatory for a first letter? Might also
be worth mentioning that the Seattle Three (TRT) no longer support the 85%
figure themselves, after all the criticism they've reduced it to something
like 63%

If it was me, I'd drop your last sentence and the a) and b). Keep your
powder dry and save the ammo for when they reply that they aren't going to
change anything, then give 'em both barrels, as they may be just blindly
following some other publication, or the BMA (Bunch of Quacks). Anybody not
confused by the mixed metaphors can send a postcard to "The Mixed Metahphor
helpline 0905 834 7967"
 
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:41 +0100, burtthebike wrote:

> "_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>>
>> Local hospital has some pamphlets prominently bearing the 85% figure. I
>> have so far written a few polite letters which have found out who is
>> responsible for the pamphlets, and that they know where the 85% comes
>> from.
>>
>> Comments welcome:
>> -------------------------
>> Dear (redacted):
>>
>> You may recall some correspondence concerning the source of the 85% figure
>> headlined in several pamphlets ((redacted) and (redacted)) produced and
>> distributed by (redacted). In your last letter to me, you said that that
>> figure came from the paper written by Thompson, Riviera and Thompson
>> (TRT).
>>
>> (redacted), have you read this paper? I sincerely hope that you have
>> not -
>> and my reasons for saying this will follow in a few paragraphs...
>>
>> The 1987 TRT paper has been the subject of much criticism. It was of a
>> type known as "case-control", where two sub-populations drawn from the
>> population at risk are compared. The major flaw is that of a large
>> difference in helmet-wearing rates between the control group and the
>> population at risk, but there are others - a small sample size, the use of
>> odds ratios rather than risk ratios to generate a claimed "reduction of
>> risk", and the ignoring of other factors that may have skewed the results.
>> As an example of this last point, using the data that TRT present, and
>> using their own methods which produced the 85% figure, it can be concluded
>> with equal strength that wearing a helmet reduced the percentage of leg
>> injuries by over 70%.
>>
>> In contrast to case-control studies, time-series studies take data from an
>> entire population and compare what happens when a change in helmet wearing
>> rates occurs. Such studies have been done; they typically are much better
>> designed, and involve much greater sample sizes; and they typically show
>> results very different to the TRT paper. TRT's extraodinary results have
>> never been replicated.
>>
>> Now, the above is the basis for my hope that you have not read the TRT
>> paper. It cannot be relied upon. A UK charity called the Bicycle Helmet
>> Initiative Trust (which name gives a most unfortunate acronym) was the
>> subject of a complaint to the UK Advertising Standards Agency following
>> their use of the 85% figure, and they have agreed not to do so in future.
>> If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts about
>> either
>>
>> a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or
>>
>> b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.
>>
>> I look forward to your reply.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,

>
> Looks pretty good to me, if a bit accusatory for a first letter?


Third letter. First that does more than ask questions, though.

> Might also
> be worth mentioning that the Seattle Three (TRT) no longer support the 85%
> figure themselves, after all the criticism they've reduced it to something
> like 63%
>
> If it was me, I'd drop your last sentence and the a) and b). Keep your
> powder dry and save the ammo for when they reply that they aren't going to
> change anything, then give 'em both barrels, as they may be just blindly
> following some other publication, or the BMA (Bunch of Quacks). Anybody not
> confused by the mixed metaphors can send a postcard to "The Mixed Metahphor
> helpline 0905 834 7967"
 
"_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>
> If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts about
> either
>
> a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or
>
> b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.


Have you ever read the book 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'? If
you have, I would doubt either your ability to interact socially with anyone
on the planet, or your classification as a human being. Now I didn't mean
that, but having read it reflect on what you were just about to do. You were
just about to alienate someone who might have been helpful in getting the
advertising withdrawn.
 
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:47:17 +0100, David Lloyd wrote:

> "_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>>
>> If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts about
>> either
>>
>> a) your ability to understand and critically read research papers; or
>>
>> b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.

>
> Have you ever read the book 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'? If
> you have, I would doubt either your ability to interact socially with anyone
> on the planet, or your classification as a human being. Now I didn't mean
> that, but having read it reflect on what you were just about to do. You were
> just about to alienate someone who might have been helpful in getting the
> advertising withdrawn.


That's what one's peers are for.

Thanks.

2nd draft to come...
 
_ <[email protected]> writes:

> the use of odds ratios rather than risk ratios


That's a criticism without any real substance: odds ratios are better to
use than risk ratios, when they differ. When the outcome is rare, as it
is here, they differ very little, so medics often call odds ratios risk
ratios.

Apart from that, I like the thrust of the letter.

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
mailto:[email protected] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html
 
_ wrote:
> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>
> Local hospital has some pamphlets prominently bearing the 85% figure.
> I have so far written a few polite letters which have found out who is
> responsible for the pamphlets, and that they know where the 85% comes
> from.
>
> Comments welcome:
> -------------------------
> Dear (redacted):
>
> You may recall some correspondence concerning the source of the 85%
> figure headlined in several pamphlets ((redacted) and (redacted))
> produced and distributed by (redacted). In your last letter to me,
> you said that that figure came from the paper written by Thompson,
> Riviera and Thompson (TRT).


Isn't it simpler to say that
1) TRT have retracted the 85% figure.
2) The ASA have told others not to use the 85% figure



If you want to have a debate about TRT methodology and the possible reasons
why some small studies show one result and population statistics show a
different one, then there are reams on the cyclehelmets.org website.



- Nigel


----
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:05:38 +0100, Nigel Cliffe wrote:

> _ wrote:
>> I'm about to send off a little rocket...
>>
>> Local hospital has some pamphlets prominently bearing the 85% figure.
>> I have so far written a few polite letters which have found out who is
>> responsible for the pamphlets, and that they know where the 85% comes
>> from.
>>
>> Comments welcome:
>> -------------------------
>> Dear (redacted):
>>
>> You may recall some correspondence concerning the source of the 85%
>> figure headlined in several pamphlets ((redacted) and (redacted))
>> produced and distributed by (redacted). In your last letter to me,
>> you said that that figure came from the paper written by Thompson,
>> Riviera and Thompson (TRT).

>
> Isn't it simpler to say that
> 1) TRT have retracted the 85% figure.


I'd love to have a cite for this; I understand it was in a letter they
wrote in reply to criticism that was published. A cite, and I'll use it.

> 2) The ASA have told others not to use the 85% figure
>


The cite I've found in re the above does not actually SAY that "others"
(read:BHIT) have been told not to use it, merely that the complaint was
"'informaly resolved by ASA, which usually means that the advertiser has
agreed to withdraw and not repeat the assertions."

It would be very nice to have unassailable chapter and verse on that one.

>
>
> If you want to have a debate about TRT methodology and the possible reasons
> why some small studies show one result and population statistics show a
> different one, then there are reams on the cyclehelmets.org website.


I know that - I was just hoping that by hitting the high points, a hospital
administrator would realise that this is not a crank letter but something
that indicates that they could well have a real problem using TRT.
 
On Apr 22, 6:16 pm, Mark T
<pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>
wrote:

> I would drop this bit:
>
>         If you did, indeed, read that paper I would have serious doubts
>         about either
>
>         a) your ability to understand and critically read researchpapers; or
>
>         b) your honesty in choosing which results to publish.
>
> It comes across as quite rude and patronising (I appreciate that this is
> why you included it :) and may backfire.


Delete "may" and insert "will". "_" can't possibly write that in a
letter to someone he is hoping onto get onto his side.

--
Dave...
 
In article <[email protected]>,
_ <[email protected]> wrote:
>The cite I've found in re the above does not actually SAY that "others"
>(read:BHIT) have been told not to use it, merely that the complaint was
>"'informaly resolved by ASA, which usually means that the advertiser has
>agreed to withdraw and not repeat the assertions."


Use journo-speak: `the advertisements were withdrawn and no longer
used, following a complaint to the ASA'.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 

Similar threads