Please help explain, coggan, RD, RST

[jeff828]

Can one of you guys or someone else with any input explain what is going on and what do I need to train to overcome this situation?

I raced a crit this past weekend and got in a 3 man break for several laps, the initial effort to make the break jacked my HR up to about 200 (max is 210). I was then able to stay with these guys "in the draft" with a HR bouncing between 192-205 the whole time "BUT" when I came to the front to take a pull I could not pull the same speed these guys were setting, I probably dropped 2-3mph, but still maintained a HR 192-205.



Second scenario happened last year when I raced the masters state RR and got in a 8 man. The course was fairly flat with a couple longish hills, no steep climbs. The initial surge jacked my HR up again 190-200,203 & didn't come down since these guys set a pace of about 28mph. Well once again I was pegged and could not take any pulls at that pace but was able to stay at that HR in the draft for 1:38min until the legs just ran out of juice (that's 1 hour & 38minutes) averages 192 for 65mi
Even on the hills I can stay with them in the draft.


1) Why can I do this, what ability does this tell you guys I have, if any, I can sit in the draft at that HR for long, long periods of time pegged, but cant take a pull?

2) What training do I need to overcome this? threshold, Vo, neuromuscular?

Thanks for any help

 

[whoawhoa]

1) Why can I do this, what ability does this tell you guys I have, if any, I can sit in the draft at that HR for long, long periods of time pegged, but cant take a pull?

Because you're putting out 20-30% more watts while in the wind.

2) What training do I need to overcome this? threshold, Vo, neuromuscular?

Thanks for any help

I don't see any reason for special work here, continued threshold and AWC work that you would traditionally do to target crit racing should be sufficient.

 

[otb4evr]

1) Why can I do this, what ability does this tell you guys I have, if any, I can sit in the draft at that HR for long, long periods of time pegged, but cant take a pull?

2) What training do I need to overcome this? threshold, Vo, neuromuscular?

Thanks for any help

Jeff,

Heart rate has nothing to do with power production.

Here is a general idea of what I consider 1 way to build your FTP. For more specific workouts/schedules, consult a coach...

From now until the end of the year, work on Tempo/Zone 3 and NeuroMuscular.

Pick up VO2Max 1 - 3 days a week after the first of the year and at least 1 day of Tempo. Keep the NM work for your warm ups and/or cool downs, as it will be important later on. Do this for about 6 weeks.

Throw down a mix of Threshold/Tempo work for another 6 weeks. Don't forget NM work.

Hit your AWC a couple times a week for the next 6 weeks, along with your first part of the racing season. Do Sprint training 1 day a week, where all you do is a warm up, a lot of form sprints, and then a cool down...

Hit a 2 week peak and 2 weeks rest. You should be ready for your 2nd half...

As I said, this is just my opinion and 1 way to skin the cat. There are many ways to build FTP. Find what works for you...

Jim

 

[SolarEnergy]

I raced a crit this past weekend and got in a 3 man break for several laps, the initial effort to make the break jacked my HR up to about 200 (max is 210). I was then able to stay with these guys "in the draft" with a HR bouncing between 192-205 the whole time "BUT" when I came to the front to take a pull I could not pull the same speed these guys were setting, I probably dropped 2-3mph, but still maintained a HR 192-205.

How often are you training at these speed Jeff?
And how often are you training in pace lines and at what speed?

 

[frenchyge]

1) Why can I do this, what ability does this tell you guys I have, if any, I can sit in the draft at that HR for long, long periods of time pegged, but cant take a pull?

If you're pegged sitting in someone's draft, then you definitely won't be able to take a pull. That's a situation you need to learn to recognize. As Whoawhoa said, the power requirement is much higher with the wind hitting you in the chest.

It's actually kinda fun when I can tell someone is riding over their head in a paceline (on a fast group ride, for example) and I can force them to the front somehow. One pull and their gone....

 

[RapDaddyo]

Because you're putting out 20-30% more watts while in the wind.

Actually, it's probably closer to 43% more watts on front. The drafting advantage is ~30% in the #2 slot and approaches 40% further back. So, if you move to the front at the same pace, it's ~43% minimum (1.00/0.70=0.43). Physiologically, it's closer to 400% more power on front.

If you're at your limit drafting on the flat, you're going to be dropped at the first hill or at the first strong surge. The only solution is more power, across the board. Lots more power!

 

[Alex Simmons]

It's actually kinda fun when I can tell someone is riding over their head in a paceline (on a fast group ride, for example) and I can force them to the front somehow. One pull and their gone....

Evil man. I suppose you half wheel them on training rides too?

There's a tactic I've seen used by some to rid a paceline of chronic hangers on - especially for those that won't do turns. Effective in flat/rolling terrain. But don't expect to make friends with it....

As rider A slides towards the back on the paceline and gets the hanger-on sitting on their wheel - they let the paceline go and let a gap form. They let the gap grow. Eventually the hanger-on will either (i) go round rider A to get back to the group, in which case rider A just sucks their wheel to get back on (hence hanger-on could/should do their turns and typically gets a few choice words thrown their way) or (ii) they won't, which is when rider A attacks, creating another gap to get back to the group and force the hanger-on to work hard. 2 or 3 of those usually does the trick, especially if done by more than one rider. It makes sitting on the back harder than riding in the paceline and doing turns. The hanger-on usually gets the message by then.

Then there are the tactics to employ when you are one of the hangers-on but I digress...

 

[jeff828]

How often are you training at these speed Jeff?
And how often are you training in pace lines and at what speed?

Thanks for everyone's input once again!

I don't get to train at these speeds much, only on Saturday with the local guys that are strong but not race caliber. The paceline speed is not over 25mph, when I do go over to the other city there are stronger faster guys & paceline is 25-30mph, when I'm sitting in HR is 170s-180s, its because its on roads with long stretches & pace is "steady" & there aren't alot of variations in speed. I don't like to many of those city rides anymore because we all know what they turn out to be HAMMER FEST, not real good training when everyone trying to kill each other to flex their egos.

Its also not like a crit/circuit race where there is a sharp acceleration & then the lead riders are riding at a frantic pace the "whole" time to get away from the chasing pack, they are not like the pros that get away, then settle into a pace, everybody ride balls to the wall

It takes me about 3-5minutes to get my HR down & settled into a rhythm & can work after an acceleration like that, but here's the problem, 3-5min is a long time and is not like the above situation with the long stretch of road, so in a crit/circuit race there's always a turn,hill,rider pulling to hard that screws everybody else up, something like that so I never get the old ticker down.

I have motorpaced before, Its helped some but I already have the ability to draft, (I did pop out into the wind then back) I want to produce the raw power !

 

[jeff828]

If you're at your limit drafting on the flat, you're going to be dropped at the first hill or at the first strong surge. The only solution is more power, across the board. Lots more power!

So RD its as simple as just keep working all the levels. L4,L5,L6

I have been doing L4,L5 and am improving, more this year than ever before, just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything. There are less & less races that are putting in this situation, (at this level of racing) but when I do get put back in this kind situation (riding pegged) it makes me question if there something I'm not doing right.

 

[RapDaddyo]

So RD its as simple as just keep working all the levels. L4,L5,L6

I have been doing L4,L5 and am improving, more this year than ever before, just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything. There are less & less races that are putting in this situation, (at this level of racing) but when I do get put back in this kind situation (riding pegged) it makes me question if there something I'm not doing right.

No, you're not missing something. When you have more power, you won't be at your limit drafting at these speeds. Now, it's true that some people need a fast-paced group to push them to high L4 pace. But, it's not group riding that produces the adaptations, it's the intensity and duration of the efforts which some of us can do solo. But, whatever it takes, you need more power. As you say, it's as simple as that.

 

[jeff828]

It's actually kinda fun when I can tell someone is riding over their head in a paceline (on a fast group ride, for example) and I can force them to the front somehow. One pull and their gone....

Nice frenchy, nice I'll remember that when I sit in your draft and you try to drop me. I don't get forced to the front much, its hard to force someone to the front when they also know the game & is not intimidated
Most riders you can just yell at them to pull through & they will, its kinda like you feel obligated to share the pace, bump that, they physically cant make you, all they can do is rant & rave.

Remember RDs post, it takes about 43% more watts/energy to be at the front trying to drop the guy in your draft (me), so one good thing for me is I can hold that 200 HR really long, hopefully longer than you can put out 43% more watts ......until we get to the hill, then I'm as good as dead

 

[jeff828]

Evil man. I suppose you half wheel them on training rides too?

There's a tactic I've seen used by some to rid a paceline of chronic hangers on - especially for those that won't do turns. Effective in flat/rolling terrain. But don't expect to make friends with it....

As rider A slides towards the back on the paceline and gets the hanger-on sitting on their wheel - they let the paceline go and let a gap form. They let the gap grow. Eventually the hanger-on will either (I) go round rider A to get back to the group, in which case rider A just sucks their wheel to get back on (hence hanger-on could/should do their turns and typically gets a few choice words thrown their way) or (ii) they won't, which is when rider A attacks, creating another gap to get back to the group and force the hanger-on to work hard. 2 or 3 of those usually does the trick, especially if done by more than one rider. It makes sitting on the back harder than riding in the paceline and doing turns. The hanger-on usually gets the message by then.

Then there are the tactics to employ when you are one of the hangers-on but I digress...

I had this done to me last year with those masters, they thought I was just sucking wheel, when I wasn't, I was just pegged. One of them kept letting the gap open at the back & then sprint to close it, but he didn't know I'm able to stay in the draft easier, so I just followed his acceleration, after the 4th time we spoke & I told him I was pegged & IF I made it to the end I wouldn't contest the sprint for the top 3 medals, it was the only right thing to do, I was just content getting top 6.

Now if you are feeling good & playing that game, the guys that keep letting the gaps open at the end of the line are also burning their matches to get ride of you, the longer you wait the bigger that gap becomes, so its a waiting game . Just make sure when the guy lets the gap open, don't let him behind you, then you will get caught off guard, keep him in front like I did

Tactics are so fun

 

[Alex Simmons]

after the 4th time we spoke & I told him I was pegged & IF I made it to the end I wouldn't contest the sprint for the top 3 medals

Ignore him and go for it! If he isn't good enough to get rid of you and you're good enough to still be there, then why not go for it? That's what sprinters have been doing since Adam was a boy. It will play on his mind a lot more than yours! I've seen plenty of egos crumble like that - then they start doing dumb things like trying to prove they're the strongest and forgetting their own race plan, only to be done over in the sprint because you stuck to your plan. You can actually have as much fun when you're the weaker but smarter rider!

 

[doctorSpoc]

your problem is L4/Threshold.. i would spend as much time as you can devoted to L4... but as others have said without completely neglecting L5-L7... you need to make it such that when you're riding in the wheels your HR isn't that high or like you said any little riser or acceleration means you go bye, bye... L4 work... for me, the HR that makes me blow up is ~195 (max 205-210)... i'm ok at below 190, but if my HR gets over 190 for anything over 2mins it will shoot up to 195 or so i'm done.. that's one of the things i've discovered this 1st season using power... regaurdless of power, if for whatever reason my HR gets to that level it's lights out...

 

[jeff828]

Ignore him and go for it! If he isn't good enough to get rid of you and you're good enough to still be there, then why not go for it? That's what sprinters have been doing since Adam was a boy. It will play on his mind a lot more than yours! I've seen plenty of egos crumble like that - then they start doing dumb things like trying to prove they're the strongest and forgetting their own race plan, only to be done over in the sprint because you stuck to your plan. You can actually have as much fun when you're the weaker but smarter rider!

I hear ya, but in this case remember I did nothing, sat in for basically 40miles (we got away 5mi into a 65mi race) it would have been wrong to then sprint them & possibly win, so it wouldn't be to make enemies since you have to race with these guys the following weekends, its hard enough to get a break as it is.

I did end up in a medal position due to the fact some of the guys blew up themselves, 1 had to stop & pee, the other threw power bar wrappers on the ground & the official made him go back & pick it up (what a way to get put out of the break ) so now bets are off, I'm sitting with only 2 guys left & will take 3rd but I blew & cramped & some of those other dropped guys caught & passed me in the last 15mi, so I ended up 6th, I had fun though & learned a lot from being in the break all day with some really strong riders.

 

[jeff828]

your problem is L4/Threshold.. i would spend as much time as you can devoted to L4... but as others have said without completely neglecting L5-L7... you need to make it such that when you're riding in the wheels your HR isn't that high or like you said any little riser or acceleration means you go bye, bye... L4 work... for me, the HR that makes me blow up is ~195 (max 205-210)... i'm ok at below 190, but if my HR gets over 190 for anything over 2mins it will shoot up to 195 or so i'm done.. that's one of the things i've discovered this 1st season using power... regaurdless of power, if for whatever reason my HR gets to that level it's lights out...

I'm glad to hear some else still thinks HR has its place in relationship to power, a lot of people now disregard it altogether, now that training with power is the thing

 

[frenchyge]

Nice frenchy, nice I'll remember that when I sit in your draft and you try to drop me. I don't get forced to the front much, its hard to force someone to the front when they also know the game & is not intimidated
Most riders you can just yell at them to pull through & they will, its kinda like you feel obligated to share the pace, bump that, they physically cant make you, all they can do is rant & rave.

Remember RDs post, it takes about 43% more watts/energy to be at the front trying to drop the guy in your draft (me), so one good thing for me is I can hold that 200 HR really long, hopefully longer than you can put out 43% more watts ......until we get to the hill, then I'm as good as dead

Heh, it's nothing personal, but having stragglers in the group that can't contribute to the pace-making makes the stronger riders not want to work either. That's why it's important to shake the weaker riders out so that the break can have a chance to succeed. In a race it's not just fun, it's a necessity.

You're right, it's harder to force someone to the front in a race where they know the game, but a couple attacks (especially on a hill or corner) will usually take care of them once all the rest of the riders in the break recognize that they are just hoping for a free ride. Gapping them off like Alex mentioned certainly does the trick.

 

[doctorSpoc]

I'm glad to hear some else still thinks HR has its place in relationship to power, a lot of people now disregard it altogether, now that training with power is the thing

i would have to agree with most that training with HR is pretty useless but.. power has it's limits of usefulness while racing... heat and dehydration can cause your numbers to shift.. and "burning matches" isn't really apparent by just looking down at your power numbers while on the bike... but for racing specifically road racing, knowing this number that makes you blow up is a huge advantage... knowing that in a couple of minutes if i keep on at this pace i'm going to blow is huge... i think those that completely ignore HR do so to their own detriment...

 

[jeff828]

Heh, it's nothing personal, but having stragglers in the group that can't contribute to the pace-making makes the stronger riders not want to work either. That's why it's important to shake the weaker riders out so that the break can have a chance to succeed. In a race it's not just fun, it's a necessity.

You're right, it's harder to force someone to the front in a race where they know the game, but a couple attacks (especially on a hill or corner) will usually take care of them once all the rest of the riders in the break recognize that they are just hoping for a free ride. Gapping them off like Alex mentioned certainly does the trick.

I hear ya french, 100% Sometime though playing head games is just as much fun as having power just to drop them, kinda the slow torture method or the cat playing with the mouse no fun in just killing the mouse outright.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I hear ya french, 100% Sometime though playing head games is just as much fun as having power just to drop them, kinda the slow torture method or the cat playing with the mouse no fun in just killing the mouse outright.

That's why some of us hate flat courses. In the RRs out here, I never give any thought to the hangers-on because I know they won't be there at the top of a long climb. The guys who make me nervous are the little 120-130 lb guys. Damn, if I could weigh 125 lbs for just one race.