Please help explain, coggan, RD, RST

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

I know people are talking about racing in general, but it's also good to keep local conditions in mind. Here are the results for a New Mexico race from last summer. I chose it at random, but it's typical of all the races. If anything, the time gaps are smaller than would usually be seen. My guess is the field went easy the first lap and only started racing the second. A field sprint in a women's race here is still a long way off.

1 02:50:25.00
2 02:50:56.00
3 02:52:11.00
4 02:52:19.00
5 02:52:45.00
6 02:54:49.00
7 02:59:25.00
8 02:59:57.00
9 03:00:24.00
10 03:10:19.00
11 03:10:21.00

Hi - I was checking the results from this years NMRS and basically noticed the same thing at a glance.

It seems, for here in NM, that the women's field is:

a) rather small, in terms of particpants

b) riders have very different abilities as it is basically a generic "W" category as opposed to A, B, C, or cat 1/2, 3/4, etc

c) as a result of the above, bunch finishes are unlikely

d) many of the events are contested at the invidiual level rather than any sort of team

That's what I'm inferring from what I've read on line. Can you please enlighten me - if any of this is remotely close to being accurate?

Obviously you are an expert on the NM women's racing scene.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Ah, but then Lucy will no doubt have her first race win ....and as I recall, the first one (race win) is always the hardest to come by....then things just seem to fall into place

Ha! Thanks for the encouragement, but at this point, suffering through L4 intervals - I'll be happy just to finish and not crash the first time out!

The much vaunted sprint that RD alluded to

, and the much lamented FTP
as well

​

 

[asgelle]

Obviously you are an expert on the NM women's racing scene.

Hard to know if this was meant to sound as sarcastic as it comes off, but I never claimed to be an expert at women's racing or anything else. There are others with much more knowledge than I, but it seemed they weren't participating here so I thought I would share what I did know (and as you are aware, though others aren't, in a PM, I directed you to a local woman rider specifically to help you get a better feel for women's racing and training here). One thing I do know is that given the current levels of participation, the idea of a field sprint in a women's race in New Mexico (with the exception of the one NRC event) is ludicrous.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Hard to know if this was meant to sound as sarcastic as it comes off, but I never claimed to be an expert at women's racing or anything else. There are others with much more knowledge than I, but it seemed they weren't participating here so I thought I would share what I did know (and as you are aware, though others aren't, in a PM, I directed you to a local woman rider specifically to help you get a better feel for women's racing and training here). One thing I do know is that given the current levels of participation, the idea of a field sprint in a women's race in New Mexico (with the exception of the one NRC event) is ludicrous.

huh - sarcastic?

I have: a) never been to/seen a women's race in NM, b) I don't know any women who race in NM, and c) there is precious little information about this online (at least readily accessible. You mentioned being involved or at least connected to the organization of future racing events in NM. Given that, how you felt I was being sarcastic I can't say.

My questions about NM racing in this thread are sincere, if you happen not to know the answer or not wish to answer, that's fine.

I'm not going to discuss or debate the specific contents of a PM here as I see no reason to share that with the entire forum.

 

[frenchyge]

Hard to know if this was meant to sound as sarcastic as it comes off.....

I didn't take it as sarcastic. Between your knowledge of that other gentleman's death and how the vacancy was being supported by others, and the statements about the lack of pack sprints in the women's fields, I also assumed that you were somehow involved in the local racing scene in NM. Maybe 'expert' was just a colorful choice of words.

Edit: PM? Okay, nevermind. I'll butt out...

 

[Pureshot78]

Hi - I was checking the results from this years NMRS and basically noticed the same thing at a glance.

It seems, for here in NM, that the women's field is:

a) rather small, in terms of particpants

b) riders have very different abilities as it is basically a generic "W" category as opposed to A, B, C, or cat 1/2, 3/4, etc

c) as a result of the above, bunch finishes are unlikely

d) many of the events are contested at the invidiual level rather than any sort of team

That's what I'm inferring from what I've read on line. Can you please enlighten me - if any of this is remotely close to being accurate?

Obviously you are an expert on the NM women's racing scene.

Lucy,



I did a year of racing in NM in the Men's C category. I agree with your assessment for the most part. The very strong women typically rode in the Men's B race and the W category was very wide ranging in ability. In fact, there were only one or two female riders from my club (which is the only one in Las Cruces) so team competition was non-existent. In the Men's C race team competition was pretty much non-existent as well with a late attack usually winning the RR.



I know that the "group ride" has been hated on in this forum from a training perspective, but I would encourage you to do that saturday ride every week you can. The women i rode with on a regular basis said that what they found was that the major barrier to other women riding was that they didn't want to be the only female on the ride. If you can get out there, be visible and welcome the others when they do show up, my guess is that you play a valuable part in promoting women's cycling in your area.



Matthew



P.S. It might take a little swallowing of your pride to do your hard workouts away from the group rides and be ok with sitting up to help a newbie (or actually being too fatigued to hang), but in my book encouraging another person to adopt that healthy lifestyle is more important than being the first one up the group ride climb. *steps down from soap box*

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Lucy,



I did a year of racing in NM in the Men's C category. I agree with your assessment for the most part. The very strong women typically rode in the Men's B race and the W category was very wide ranging in ability. In fact, there were only one or two female riders from my club (which is the only one in Las Cruces) so team competition was non-existent. In the Men's C race team competition was pretty much non-existent as well with a late attack usually winning the RR.



I know that the "group ride" has been hated on in this forum from a training perspective, but I would encourage you to do that saturday ride every week you can. The women i rode with on a regular basis said that what they found was that the major barrier to other women riding was that they didn't want to be the only female on the ride. If you can get out there, be visible and welcome the others when they do show up, my guess is that you play a valuable part in promoting women's cycling in your area.



Matthew



P.S. It might take a little swallowing of your pride to do your hard workouts away from the group rides and be ok with sitting up to help a newbie (or actually being too fatigued to hang), but in my book encouraging another person to adopt that healthy lifestyle is more important than being the first one up the group ride climb. *steps down from soap box*

Hi Matthew....

Thanks for your comments and sharing your experiences. I can believe what you are saying given what seems like the relatively small size of the field and the absence of teams or team tactics.

About group rides, I admit I have a strong dislike of them as it seems many people here do. Then my reasons are possibly a bit different. As someone who is going on 3 months of riding, I've tried a number of the rides with the local bike clubs and found them distinctly unpleasant.

Overwhelmingly it is a group of men and more often than not, hammering from start to finish. It, for me, has not been at all welcoming - it is a good thing I never harbored any illusions about meeting people through cycling or any social aspect - because if I had, I would have already quit! I've talked with some other women who cycle in the area and it seems I'm not alone in finding this very unappealing.

I'd have no problem helping out someone newer or less fit than me.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I've talked with some other women who cycle in the area and it seems I'm not alone in finding this very unappealing.

Start a new riding group. All it takes is an email list, a starting time and location, a route and a ride leader. If the rides are fun and the routes challenging, word will get out and more will come. That's how my club started 2 years ago and today we have almost 200 members.

 

[frenchyge]

About group rides, I admit I have a strong dislike of them as it seems many people here do. Then my reasons are possibly a bit different. As someone who is going on 3 months of riding, I've tried a number of the rides with the local bike clubs and found them distinctly unpleasant.

Wow that really sucks, and is a bit surprising. Kansas City is probably a bit larger than Albuquerque, but we have several clubs in the metro area which host rides of all different lengths and speeds. One of the clubs even hosts a combined website which lists the rides, speeds, distances, etc. There's really no reason for a newbie to get caught in a hammerfest, because the ride speeds are all listed in advance (although most rides diverge somewhat at the start and re-join at the end). Most of the club rides start and end at a bar or eating establishment, specfically so people can socialize afterward. Of course, that's all in addition to the team rides, although club riders are typically welcome there as well.

I'm sorry to hear that your club scene isn't quite up to snuff. Maybe next spring when your fitness and confidence are higher you'll feel more comfortable and have a better experience.

 

[asgelle]

Wow that really sucks, and is a bit surprising. Kansas City is probably a bit larger than Albuquerque, but we have several clubs in the metro area which host rides of all different lengths and speeds.

Off the top of my head these are the public group rides I can think of from slowest to fastest (though the exact pace on rides can change week to week) None of these is restricted to members.:
Monday Morning ride
Wed. Morning ride
Friday Morning ride (these three are weekday mornings, mostly retirees)
NM Touring Society - multiple rides posted in advance
Sunday Starbucks ride
Sat. and Sunday Lobo ride
Sportz Outdoors Sat. ride
New Mexico Velosport Sat. ride
Focus Fitness Sat. ride
NMVS Tues/Thus evening ride
Mon, Wed. Fri. Lunch ride on base (if you have access)
Tues, Thus Lunch ride to Tijeras

I think that's not bad for a city with fewer than 450,000 residents in a state with under 300 licensed racers.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I joined a club last year and I quickly noticed that the group will normally break into two groups within the first 10 miles with the advanced riders moving on to their faster pace after they warm up.

I now find it odd that my improvements have me in between the two groups. I can hang with the advanced riders (sometimes) for the first half of the ride and then finish the ride either by myself or another mid pack rider that is also at my level.

There is a hammerfest in the advanced group and someday I hope to be in there with them. That is my goal for next spring just to hang on the back. I don't expect to make my share of pulls, but that will be a goal later down the road.

Right now I am happy whether I end up riding by myself in a gap between 30 to 50 riders or if I end up with a small group riding at my level.

I found a very supportive, motivating and friendly club that has really enhanced riding on the weekend.

I think like RD mentioned finding people that have a common attitude and making an email list is also a good way to establish a group that is compatible. It seems to evolve from there. I am now on several email lists outside of the club rides.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Start a new riding group. All it takes is an email list, a starting time and location, a route and a ride leader. If the rides are fun and the routes challenging, word will get out and more will come. That's how my club started 2 years ago and today we have almost 200 members.

That's quite enterprising, but at this point, not surprising that you pulled this off! And 200 members is a healthy amount for any town I'd think.

I would consider doing the same but I have a number of volunteer committments that are very important. Between that and training I don't have a lot of time to start up a club and such.

Wow that really sucks, and is a bit surprising. Kansas City is probably a bit larger than Albuquerque, but we have several clubs in the metro area which host rides of all different lengths and speeds. One of the clubs even hosts a combined website which lists the rides, speeds, distances, etc. There's really no reason for a newbie to get caught in a hammerfest, because the ride speeds are all listed in advance (although most rides diverge somewhat at the start and re-join at the end). Most of the club rides start and end at a bar or eating establishment, specfically so people can socialize afterward. Of course, that's all in addition to the team rides, although club riders are typically welcome there as well.

I'm sorry to hear that your club scene isn't quite up to snuff. Maybe next spring when your fitness and confidence are higher you'll feel more comfortable and have a better experience.

The ABQ metro area, which includes (ABQ, Rio Rancho, Corrales, RR, East Mtns, etc), is about 750-900K depending on which statistics you read. Not sure how that compares with KC.

That's quite an extensive listing on the website you mentioned. Well done too.

After riding for about 4 weeks I contacted several clubs here which all promoted so-called 'all speeds welcome' rides. I contacted the ride leaders and was then basically lectured that 'all speeds welcomed' meant 19mph+ on the flats, if you get a mechanical you are on your own, etc. None of this exactly appeals to me - not now, and not in a year either.

Even when I am more fit, I don't want to be part of these clubs that do nothing to encourage newer riders. I've turned down a few offers to ride with others now and am happiest on my own.

 

[Felt_Rider]

After riding for about 4 weeks I contacted several clubs here which all promoted so-called 'all speeds welcome' rides. I contacted the ride leaders and was then basically lectured that 'all speeds welcomed' meant 19mph+ on the flats, if you get a mechanical you are on your own, etc. None of this exactly appeals to me - not now, and not in a year either.

Even when I am more fit, I don't want to be part of these clubs that do nothing to encourage newer riders. I've turned down a few offers to ride with others now and am happiest on my own.

We have some of that in Atlanta as well that are on the unfriendly side and most of them pretending to be "racers."
I don't blame you for not wanting to be part of that.
Lest you evolve into one of them over a period of time.

All of the people in my club seem to be friendly and humble in spirit.
I believe it really has to do with their age as I am one of the youngest riders at 43, but like Tyson and RD I have learned to respect their riding power despite age.

Age, humility, friendliness and still a lot of power

 

[RapDaddyo]

That's quite enterprising, but at this point, not surprising that you pulled this off! And 200 members is a healthy amount for any town I'd think.

I would consider doing the same but I have a number of volunteer committments that are very important. Between that and training I don't have a lot of time to start up a club and such.

You may be overestimating the work involved to get a riding group started or at least a new type of ride started within an existing club. I didn't start my club. Rather, when I moved to Las Vegas ~18 months ago I investigated all of the group rides in the area. The NW side of town had several clubs and rides for different abilities, but that would require a 30min drive to the rides each way and I preferred to ride to the ride from my house. On my side of town, there were two options. One was a Cat2-Cat4 race team whose training rides were basically race-pace. If you got dropped, tough luck. I wasn't ready for that sort of pace. The other option was a recreational club with basically one ride each weekend day, ~30miles at ~15-16mph. I joined a few of these rides and a few of us would just push the pace and ride ahead of the group. I enjoyed the people in the club, but found the rides not sufficiently challenging. So, with the permission of the club's board of directors, I began posting "A" rides that were longer (50-75 miles), more challenging (i.e., more climbing) and a faster pace (20+mph on the flats). But, we follow a practice that I think more fast group rides should follow. We regroup at the tops of major climbs. This is where the group is going to splinter even if everybody can hang on on the flats (due to the 30% drafting advantage). This allows everybody to do the climbs at their own pace, but the riders with less power won't be left behind because we either wait at the top or soft pedal after the climb until everybody is on board. And, if someone gets a mechanical or flats, we all stop and either pitch in to get him/her underway or just wait and tell the guys working on the bike to hurry up. Initially, my rides had ~3-4 riders, but word spread and soon others started showing up. Now, my rides have 12-20 riders and it's still growing.

You might want to see if there is a club whose rides depart from a location that is convenient for you geographically and, if they don't have a ride that suits your needs, ask the club's leaders if you can start up a new ride within the club. It's really not that much effort and group rides on the weekend can be a lot of fun. I wouldn't miss my rides for anything but a race. Of course, I should like my rides since I designed them.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

RD - what you've described sounds like a sensible, sane approach to starting a club, or at least, arranging a regular ride with you and like-minded people.

It may as you say, not require that much time from me personally. So it is a possibility at some point.

In the interim though, I'm rather sour on clubs and club rides (as I'm sure is obvious!)

Training and riding alone is very productive in my case.

 

[RapDaddyo]

RD - what you've described sounds like a sensible, sane approach to starting a club, or at least, arranging a regular ride with you and like-minded people.

It may as you say, not require that much time from me personally. So it is a possibility at some point.

In the interim though, I'm rather sour on clubs and club rides (as I'm sure is obvious!)

Training and riding alone is very productive in my case.

That may be, but some form of group rides is going to be essential before you begin racing seriously. Here's why. Solo rides mean that you are exclusively in control of your power and your pace. This tends to result in steady efforts. RRs and crits don't afford this luxury. You are forced to respond to the pace of the lead group or get dropped. Eventually, you may develop enough power to be the one on front forcing the pace, but initially you have to learn to respond to the pace being set on front. Fast group rides prepare you for this, both physiologically and mentally. Initially, you cling to someone's wheel as though your life depended on it, which it does in the sense that if you get dropped you're done. As you develop more power and more confidence, you don't worry if there is a small gap because you know you can close it. You begin to look around and see who's where and what's going on because you don't have to constantly stare at the guy's wheel in front of you. You learn to eat, drink and, most importantly, think while you're staying with the group. There is no substitute for fast group riding as preparation for racing. Until next spring, it probably doesn't matter for you because you're trying to just build your power. But, next spring you should find a group to ride with as preparation for racing.

 

[frenchyge]

Not to mention learning to draft, rotate and pace smoothly and safely, and throw elbows when needed.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

That may be, but some form of group rides is going to be essential before you begin racing seriously. Here's why. Solo rides mean that you are exclusively in control of your power and your pace. This tends to result in steady efforts. RRs and crits don't afford this luxury.....

I agree that bike handling skills, tactics, variable pacing, etc are all keys to being successful on the road. In a big enough field, and one where the riders abilities were relatively comprable, it would all play a big part.

Specific to my own situation (and location....)....After digging around google ad nauseum, I finally found the results & times to a race for the women's category here. Ten riders....the closest time between riders was 40 seconds - more typically several minutes! Almost an hour between 1st place and 10th.

Not to mention learning to draft, rotate and pace smoothly and safely, and throw elbows when needed.

Hey now, aren't you supposed to be encouraging me? Or is the elbow throwing part of that?

 

[asgelle]

Specific to my own situation (and location....)....After digging around google ad nauseum, I finally found the results & times to a race for the women's category here. Ten riders....the closest time between riders was 40 seconds - more typically several minutes! Almost an hour between 1st place and 10th.

http://www.nmcycling.org/results.htm

 

[RapDaddyo]

Specific to my own situation (and location....)....After digging around google ad nauseum, I finally found the results & times to a race for the women's category here. Ten riders....the closest time between riders was 40 seconds - more typically several minutes! Almost an hour between 1st place and 10th.

You have to be a little careful about interpreting such results. Gaps of even several minutes can be created in the last few miles of a race. It's possible that the first several places (4-5) were riding together in a group off the front and then they splintered in the last few miles as one or more of them began to apply pressure. When riders get dropped, they often drop well off the pace unless there is another rider in hot pursuit.