ok so i was at the local flea market and saw this bike i paid ten bucks for the bike. i do not know the maker there is no markings and all the decals have been taken off it have a campy record derailleur(sp) cinelli handlebars and a sugino crank anyone have any ideas it has bar end shifters as well
Please help id
- Thread starter sasher1982
- Start date
The used Campy Record rear derailleur is worth the $10.
Semi-Wrap over seat stays...I'm stumped.
I don't think it's a Raleigh. Maybe French?
Any brand info on the double-tunnel cable guide or the headset? It originally had centerpull brakes and the rear cable-stop bridge has been ground partially away.
What brand bars and stem?
What brand hubs?
What brand pedals?
Is the bottom bracket English threaded or Italian? Sometime that info is marked on one of the bearing cups. Does the bottom bracket measure 68 or 70 MM in width?
Semi-Wrap over seat stays...I'm stumped.
I don't think it's a Raleigh. Maybe French?
Any brand info on the double-tunnel cable guide or the headset? It originally had centerpull brakes and the rear cable-stop bridge has been ground partially away.
What brand bars and stem?
What brand hubs?
What brand pedals?
Is the bottom bracket English threaded or Italian? Sometime that info is marked on one of the bearing cups. Does the bottom bracket measure 68 or 70 MM in width?
Well obviously we're, or at least I am, just guessing, but due to the color of the bike and rear looped bridge on the rear stay I would say it's a Gitane Professional touring bike, that at sometime had it's original fork replaced. The only problem with that guess is the Campy derailleur, Gitane touring bikes usually came with Simplex, so either that bike in that year came with Campy, or the Simplex (which were mostly junk even when new) was replaced by a Campy unit, or I've got the wrong bike. I do know that Gitane did use Sugino bottom brackets on some touring bikes but that one looks newer which is ok since BB's and gear rings don't last forever, so it may have been replaced with the same brand just a newer model.
More than likely my Gitane guess is probably wrong, but I am stabbing in the dark.
More than likely my Gitane guess is probably wrong, but I am stabbing in the dark.
Just what I was thinking...Motobecane or Gitane with Mafac centerpull brakes. I don't think it's a Professional as those came with sidepull brakes IIRC.
If the frame has a serial number stamped on it there are websites to run the number through.
As a guess, most of the original components have been replaced over the years. The stem and possibly the bars are original. The seatpost has the correct...er...'patina', but who knows? Headset is possibly original.
If the frame has a serial number stamped on it there are websites to run the number through.
As a guess, most of the original components have been replaced over the years. The stem and possibly the bars are original. The seatpost has the correct...er...'patina', but who knows? Headset is possibly original.
Gitane Professional did indeed come with sidepull brakes, however the Professional Touring bike came with centerpull brakes.
Yeah...even the older Pro road racers had Competition or Racer centerpulls, but that goes back a ways. I need to go look at some old Gitane catalogs and see when the Mafacs died out on the higher end models. A buddy had second-from-top model and it had Universal Super 68 sidepulls...that was 1972 IIRC.
Peugeot held on to Mafacs until maybe 1975?
Peugeot held on to Mafacs until maybe 1975?
I'm thinking it may also be the 1970 Tour De France touring model as well, after spending some time looking at the Gitane cats. Again a guess, but look at the green paint of the OP picture and look at the lug outline, you can still see traces of the gold outline done by Gitane. Notice the barely visible arched bridge on the rear stays. Look also at the quill stem in both the OP pics and the Cat pic, it appears to be the same stem.
On those Professionals and the Tour De France there were two options, race and touring, touring would have had the center pull brakes. The Cat pic only shows one of the two models which I believe is the touring model based on how far the rear wheel is from the seat tube, (and it has centerpull brakes), vs how close it is to the OP's seat tube, (and his has sidepulls) which makes me think he has the race model.
http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1970_pg5.jpg
There is also a strong possiblity that since the center pull brakes required that arch bridge at the seat tube that the brakes on the OP bike are not original since side pulls don't require that arch. If what I'm saying is true then there is a lot on this bike that was changed over the years.
Anyway, I'm probably wrong so let's find another bike that's closer.
On those Professionals and the Tour De France there were two options, race and touring, touring would have had the center pull brakes. The Cat pic only shows one of the two models which I believe is the touring model based on how far the rear wheel is from the seat tube, (and it has centerpull brakes), vs how close it is to the OP's seat tube, (and his has sidepulls) which makes me think he has the race model.
http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1970_pg5.jpg
There is also a strong possiblity that since the center pull brakes required that arch bridge at the seat tube that the brakes on the OP bike are not original since side pulls don't require that arch. If what I'm saying is true then there is a lot on this bike that was changed over the years.
Anyway, I'm probably wrong so let's find another bike that's closer.
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I was also checking out old Gitane and Motobecane catalogs last night. Both companies held onto the Mafac Racer and Competition centerpulls a year or two longer than I thought. Some models used the brazed-on cable stop bridge and some used the stamped steel hanger that attached to the seatpost binder bolt.
I'm guess that due to a lack of chrome plating and just going by sales numbers and how expensive models were usually better cared for that 'if' this is Gitane it is one of the low end Interclub or Gran Sport models.
And yeah, a lot of pieces parts have been replaced over the years.
This early 1970's Interclub has a half-chrome fork with chrome crown (stamped cap or plated?) and has the brazed-on cable stop.
By 1975 the Interclub used the seatpost binder bolt hanger and a full-chrome fork. Note the rear light/generator braze-on and top tube cable guide braze-on's.
I'm guess that due to a lack of chrome plating and just going by sales numbers and how expensive models were usually better cared for that 'if' this is Gitane it is one of the low end Interclub or Gran Sport models.
And yeah, a lot of pieces parts have been replaced over the years.
This early 1970's Interclub has a half-chrome fork with chrome crown (stamped cap or plated?) and has the brazed-on cable stop.
By 1975 the Interclub used the seatpost binder bolt hanger and a full-chrome fork. Note the rear light/generator braze-on and top tube cable guide braze-on's.
I doubt it's the 75 since the paint color is a lighter green and the stem is different, but the 70 one you showed could be it too, and it has the gold outlined lugs.
To add to the difficulty in identifying the OP's bike, the French were the absolute worst at not adhering to catalog specs. They built up bikes using whatever components they had on hand. Simplex...Suntour...no difference, right? Out of Stronglight cranksets? Toss a T.A. on there, Maurice! No more Arc En Ciel's in stock? Monthlery's will do fine.
They also varied their offerings by market. Europe got different stuff than England. Canada spec bikes were different from U.S.A. spec.
Paint? Monsieur you are fortunate we even bothered to paint zis for you! French paint, particularly Peugeot's, made the Italians look like concours jobs. And That's saying something as Italian paint jobs in the 1970's mostly looked like they hired the blind. As a lot, the Euro's slopped on the paint and those cheesy decals half drunk after their lunch vino breaks like n one was ever going to look at their products. They did improve as time went on, but yeesh! Talk about craptastic quality.
They also varied their offerings by market. Europe got different stuff than England. Canada spec bikes were different from U.S.A. spec.
Paint? Monsieur you are fortunate we even bothered to paint zis for you! French paint, particularly Peugeot's, made the Italians look like concours jobs. And That's saying something as Italian paint jobs in the 1970's mostly looked like they hired the blind. As a lot, the Euro's slopped on the paint and those cheesy decals half drunk after their lunch vino breaks like n one was ever going to look at their products. They did improve as time went on, but yeesh! Talk about craptastic quality.
Shown to illustrate the rear brake cable stops differences and the addition of more chrome and braze on's.
1974 Tour De LAvenir:
As crappy as the paint was coming out of France and Italy they still sold those bikes by the millions because everyone thought they were the best of the best...and they were until America and Japan stepped up their game in very late 70's but even then France and Italy, especially Italy was the bike to have even though they paled in comparison to America and Japan. Even England had some crappy paint work, just look at old Motobecane and Raleigh, these were hit and miss, I saw a lot of chity paint work by those companies back in the day. Italian paint was also very well known not to hold up long. This is why I don't understand why today those bikes sell for a lot more money than American or Japanese bikes that had superior paint and decal application, far better brazing; and in regards to components, especially Suntour, was also far superior to any of the European components. So those Euro brand bikes still carry the high sticker prices even used as they did when they were new because that stigma has never gone away.
My 1974 Schwinn Paramount was very well done. My California painted Masi awesome. My 80's Cinelli is well done. My 80's Pinarello's and Bottecchia are very well done. The last of my Colnago's are well done. The early Colnago's I owned had poor paint work and cheap decals. The early Bottechia's were sloppy. The early Cinelli's were sloppy.
They all learned...eventually.
Even the last of the real Raleighs were decently done.
But, from the bike boom into the 80's there was a lot of schlock on the market. I think we bought the Italian stuff for its geometry and ride. And for the better Italian components that came with a lot of it. The French stuff was a bargain and usually light weight. My Peugeot 1973 Py-10 had a horrible paint job.
One of the weird things about the early days of the 1970's bike boom years was that the American makers had been selling **** bikes with really nice paint jobs. For decades! Over-built tanks, including their racing style bikes, with cheap components slapped onto a nice paint job.
Yeah, the Japs did a good job of detailing for the most part. But they kind of share the same story as the Euro's...the did learn more quickly though! Some of those early SOMA's, Nishiki's (American company, Jap production), Panasonic's, Kabuki's, etc. were pretty rough. The early Fuji's weren't much better. A friend had either The Finest or The Newest model and it rusted through the paint just looking at it. The later production of their steel stuff was really good.
Now, everyone has their frames manufactured, painted and decaled in China and most of the results are outstanding. A few of the Italian, French, English and American firms also seem to turn out great paint jobs. Allied bikes might be gaudy, but I like them... https://alliedcycleworks.com/two-new-chrome-paint-colors-for-valentines-day/
They all learned...eventually.
Even the last of the real Raleighs were decently done.
But, from the bike boom into the 80's there was a lot of schlock on the market. I think we bought the Italian stuff for its geometry and ride. And for the better Italian components that came with a lot of it. The French stuff was a bargain and usually light weight. My Peugeot 1973 Py-10 had a horrible paint job.
One of the weird things about the early days of the 1970's bike boom years was that the American makers had been selling **** bikes with really nice paint jobs. For decades! Over-built tanks, including their racing style bikes, with cheap components slapped onto a nice paint job.
Yeah, the Japs did a good job of detailing for the most part. But they kind of share the same story as the Euro's...the did learn more quickly though! Some of those early SOMA's, Nishiki's (American company, Jap production), Panasonic's, Kabuki's, etc. were pretty rough. The early Fuji's weren't much better. A friend had either The Finest or The Newest model and it rusted through the paint just looking at it. The later production of their steel stuff was really good.
Now, everyone has their frames manufactured, painted and decaled in China and most of the results are outstanding. A few of the Italian, French, English and American firms also seem to turn out great paint jobs. Allied bikes might be gaudy, but I like them... https://alliedcycleworks.com/two-new-chrome-paint-colors-for-valentines-day/
The only nice production (not mentioning custom builders) bike that America put out in the early 70's was the Schwinn Paramount and the Schwinn Sports Tourer, and those bikes from what I can remember had really good paint jobs, even Schwinns crappy bikes the paint jobs were about equal to stuff coming out of Italy and England on their best bikes! I still see the low end Schwinn models from the 60's and 70's strutting around town today with their original paint still intact.
I still wish Schwinn had gotten their act together and stayed in business, as I wish Studebaker had too, but such is life. Studebaker made some fantastic cars with good lines; with safety features way ahead of it's time, my 63 Avanti has a built in roll bar!
I'm slowly selling off my cars, of the 5 I had one was sold a few months ago to a big collector. The friend that I had who had 35 some odd cars and where I stored mine died suddenly a few months ago, when his fleet is gone is wife is going to sell the property, she only has about 8 of his cars left. She has one car from the collection she wants to keep because he had it before they were married and went on dates with it, and that's a 67 GTO convertible that she loves to drive, I promised her I would help maintain it for her since few mechanics are around anymore that know how! Anyway I only have space for 2 of my 4 remaining cars, and a nearby neighbor may buy one of those two next week. So there goes my collection, oh well I can't take it with me when I die anyways! LOL! I just have to figure out if the one goes next week which of the remaining 3 I want to sell. The one good thing is my car insurance bill will get a bit smaller, and my wife will be a bit happier!
By the way I decided against getting the Corvette we talked about, my wife didn't really want one after she told me she did.
I still wish Schwinn had gotten their act together and stayed in business, as I wish Studebaker had too, but such is life. Studebaker made some fantastic cars with good lines; with safety features way ahead of it's time, my 63 Avanti has a built in roll bar!
I'm slowly selling off my cars, of the 5 I had one was sold a few months ago to a big collector. The friend that I had who had 35 some odd cars and where I stored mine died suddenly a few months ago, when his fleet is gone is wife is going to sell the property, she only has about 8 of his cars left. She has one car from the collection she wants to keep because he had it before they were married and went on dates with it, and that's a 67 GTO convertible that she loves to drive, I promised her I would help maintain it for her since few mechanics are around anymore that know how! Anyway I only have space for 2 of my 4 remaining cars, and a nearby neighbor may buy one of those two next week. So there goes my collection, oh well I can't take it with me when I die anyways! LOL! I just have to figure out if the one goes next week which of the remaining 3 I want to sell. The one good thing is my car insurance bill will get a bit smaller, and my wife will be a bit happier!
By the way I decided against getting the Corvette we talked about, my wife didn't really want one after she told me she did.
Last week I was one buyer away from buying a Schwinn Premis that appeared to be in great original shape for just $50 but the buyer ahead of me snagged it away...boo hoo, that's all I needed was another bike but I was in the buying rotation for it anyways.
I had to Google the Premis. I'm not familiar with it. Prelude...yeah. Premis...no, I didn't know anything about it. The late '80's and early 90's were both good and bad for Schwinn. Finally, some decent bikes other than the Paramount. Sure, the Super Sport and the Sports Tourer had a decent frame, but everything else about them was meh, at best.
$50 would have been a good price for a minty one. Much more than that...not so much. Tenex was OK tubing. Like Cromor and Aelle, it was not Columbus' good stuff despite some people saying it was derived from SL tubing. And IIRC the lesser Schwinns only used it in the three main tubes of the frame.
Still, I would have spent a fiddy on one if that's what I was after. 12-speeds and stripped down it would make a good day tourer for sure.
$50 would have been a good price for a minty one. Much more than that...not so much. Tenex was OK tubing. Like Cromor and Aelle, it was not Columbus' good stuff despite some people saying it was derived from SL tubing. And IIRC the lesser Schwinns only used it in the three main tubes of the frame.
Still, I would have spent a fiddy on one if that's what I was after. 12-speeds and stripped down it would make a good day tourer for sure.
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I have heard arguments pro and con for Tenax, I'm leaning toward it being better than most, but not better than all of course. Some of Tenax was straight tubed and some was double butted, some were made for touring purposes and some were made lighter for road use. Everything that I read about that tubing said it was blemished SL or SP that was sold to Schwinn so they could save money during lean times from buying regular unblemished tubing. Schwinn Prelude has a Cat page that states that the Prelude was dble butted, and it states that it is Columbus SL or SP, see:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d...Publ Pages/SchwinnPreludeBicycling87Large.jpg
Also see these specs: http://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1981_1990/1985Ltwt31.html
http://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1981_1990/1985Ltwt30.html
Tenax was mid level tubing and it was above the quality of the tubing you mentioned, I think Tenax is way underrated, I know mine Tenax frame on my 85 Le Tour Luxe is the most comfortable feeling of any of my steel bikes, and it only weighs 26.5 pounds which is less than Trek's latest touring bike! Not to mention that mine looks far nicer than the ugly Trek. http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm
Anyway the Premis just for the fact that it came with Suntour Cyclone components made it worth more than $50! And it only weighed 22 pounds which put is solidly in the lower end of the weight scale for production steel bikes in it's day. If this bike was a made in Italy bike with Columbus stickers and Suntour components, and everything was exactly the same except it had a Italian name on it, it would have sold for $800 range, but it's got the Schwinn tag and they used the name Tenax so now it's only worth $50 to maybe $100? I don't think so, these Schwinns are the sleepers of the vintage market.
26 pounds? 22 pounds? And here I am *****ing because a Wilier is touching 17 with cages!
I have one Aelle frame and one Cromer. The Aelle is dead dead dead and the Cromor is as stiff as a brick. I liked SL and SLX, as well as 531. I never had any of the ultra-thinwall stuff so I can't compare that to anything.
I saw a peloton sell for $20-$25 and if had been my size I would have snagged it. It was in good to very good condition, not mint or even excellent in my judgement.
I have one Aelle frame and one Cromer. The Aelle is dead dead dead and the Cromor is as stiff as a brick. I liked SL and SLX, as well as 531. I never had any of the ultra-thinwall stuff so I can't compare that to anything.
I saw a peloton sell for $20-$25 and if had been my size I would have snagged it. It was in good to very good condition, not mint or even excellent in my judgement.
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