Please help me to understand my true limiter!!



rbarker76

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Oct 25, 2006
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Originally Posted by cram1960 .

It may be a naive question to the OP, but

If the head of the race separates from you coming out of the turn, and the then guys who were behind you pass you when the heat turns off, why not just let the other guys take you back to the pack? rather than you leading them back to the pack. IOW let someone else close the gaps so you can save some precious matches for later. If no one else steps up...the it's up to you.
If I saw you grinding, I'd just sit on then pass you as the pace settles back down.

You can call me stupid, if you like. I'm not a racer.
Some of the information about how these races are "raced" might have been missed in the middle of my first post. I'll try to explain more clearly,
These races are either 4/5 or 3/4. The 4/5 races are usually 25 miles and the 3/4 are around 35 miles on average. The terrain is very rolling with short sharp steep hills and descents. The courses are on narrow farming roads with a centerline rule in effect at all times. The field size is on average between 50 to 75. I have seen as much as 100. I would be more than happy to let someone tow me back. I do that. The problem is that when you do that you have now lost 5 places. It is almost impossible to gain those places back rapidly enough with a field of 75 sitting shoulder to yellow line, 4 or 5 bikes wide. Your best hope to move up is in a corner or coming out of a corner when the field strings out a bit. But I lose places because of my lack of short high power. Before I know it I'm at the back of the pack just holding on and in no position to do anything.
Breakaways in these races just don't happen. Average speeds are always between 24 to 25mph. If a break of a few do get away they are almost always pulled back in quite rapidly. The masters races are a bit different. They seem to be a bit more tame and the pack doesn't chase everything down. One of my teamates won the masters PA Bar last year. He won 9 races I believe solo off the front or out of a 3 man break. Two weeks ago the Masters race was the same distance as the 3/4 race that prompted this post. They averaged 20.7 mph where we averaged 24.2. But, most of these Master racers in this pack I KNOW have a higher w/kg at FTP than the ones driving the 3/4 race. The Masters just seem to race and use a bit more strategy where us younger knuckleheads just surge and surge and surge and win by attrition. But that doesn't change my problem since I'm only 35 years old. I HAVE to stop losing places out of these surges and corners. And it's not from losing the wheel "in" or "entering" the corner because of lack of skill. I actually lose it when the guy in front of me stands up and accelerates to catch the guy in front of him or get back to speed. If I don't try to sprint to catch him and just ride back on and use my aerobic ability, I just lost at least 5 places and after 4 corners I just lost 20 and in two laps I'm on the back riding the rest of my race as pack filler.
Two Saturdays ago we had a 4/5 race with a field of 60. I finished 24th. The last place in the pack was 27th. 33 riders were dropped within the FIRST lap. I can usually hang on in a race if I don't surge and surge to try and keep position. I just will end up finishing towards the back. By the way my FTP is 3.6 w/kg, 5m 4.9 w/kg, 1m and 5 sec don't even make the profile!!! Working on trying to drop 10 kilos though. But if I lost absolute power from that I don't know if I'll be any better on the rollers.
 

ciclotrainer

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Apr 24, 2011
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In this type of races, if you read a power files, you can observe a large numbers of surge, almost >100. The great percentage of this are by 10" to 30", only few surge are 40", and normaly only one or two 1'.
The best way for training on demand for this type of races is to train the metabolic request on short interval training session, at least one in a week, and the work should be in quadrant 1 of WKO+, power should be in anaerobic capacity level, and >100rpm, the rest in quadrant 3.
This my best training session

20' warm up with 2-3 peaks of force (10-12 pedal stroke) by 40rpm every 5'
[(20" L6 >100rpm+ 40" L1 <80rpm + 30" L6 >100rpm + 30" L1 <80rpm + 40" L6/L5 >100rpm + 20" L1 <80rpm) X3 + 10' rest L1 <80rpm] X5
10' cool down

This is a series of 9' in anaerobic capacity, for more intense training you can rest in the series in L2.
The IF is around 95%-100% FTP in the series, TSS around 90-100 points for 5 series.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by rbarker76 .




Some of the information about how these races are "raced" might have been missed in the middle of my first post. I'll try to explain more clearly,
These races are either 4/5 or 3/4. The 4/5 races are usually 25 miles and the 3/4 are around 35 miles on average. The terrain is very rolling with short sharp steep hills and descents. The courses are on narrow farming roads with a centerline rule in effect at all times. The field size is on average between 50 to 75. I have seen as much as 100. I would be more than happy to let someone tow me back. I do that. The problem is that when you do that you have now lost 5 places. It is almost impossible to gain those places back rapidly enough with a field of 75 sitting shoulder to yellow line, 4 or 5 bikes wide. Your best hope to move up is in a corner or coming out of a corner when the field strings out a bit. But I lose places because of my lack of short high power. Before I know it I'm at the back of the pack just holding on and in no position to do anything.
Breakaways in these races just don't happen. Average speeds are always between 24 to 25mph. If a break of a few do get away they are almost always pulled back in quite rapidly. The masters races are a bit different. They seem to be a bit more tame and the pack doesn't chase everything down. One of my teamates won the masters PA Bar last year. He won 9 races I believe solo off the front or out of a 3 man break. Two weeks ago the Masters race was the same distance as the 3/4 race that prompted this post. They averaged 20.7 mph where we averaged 24.2. But, most of these Master racers in this pack I KNOW have a higher w/kg at FTP than the ones driving the 3/4 race. The Masters just seem to race and use a bit more strategy where us younger knuckleheads just surge and surge and surge and win by attrition. But that doesn't change my problem since I'm only 35 years old. I HAVE to stop losing places out of these surges and corners. And it's not from losing the wheel "in" or "entering" the corner because of lack of skill. I actually lose it when the guy in front of me stands up and accelerates to catch the guy in front of him or get back to speed. If I don't try to sprint to catch him and just ride back on and use my aerobic ability, I just lost at least 5 places and after 4 corners I just lost 20 and in two laps I'm on the back riding the rest of my race as pack filler.
Two Saturdays ago we had a 4/5 race with a field of 60. I finished 24th. The last place in the pack was 27th. 33 riders were dropped within the FIRST lap. I can usually hang on in a race if I don't surge and surge to try and keep position. I just will end up finishing towards the back. By the way my FTP is 3.6 w/kg, 5m 4.9 w/kg, 1m and 5 sec don't even make the profile!!! Working on trying to drop 10 kilos though. But if I lost absolute power from that I don't know if I'll be any better on the rollers.

Between your last post and the first you pretty much answered your problem - but maybe there was a few too many trees to see the forest.

With an FTP of ~275 (3.6 w/kg) I'm guesstimating your weight to be around 168lbs (76Kg) which would put your 5m 4.9 w/kg and around ~375watts - which is fairly handy. Given that your 1m and 5sec don't make the profile (~430 or 775 watts respectively) tells us where you're coming up short.

You need to train your weaknesses. Lots of short, hard, violent efforts are needed. The problem is two fold. Firstly you have to generate the power and secondly, in races, you have to do it repeatedly. It's normally the latter than kills most folk who start racing but if you're not able to able to hit 430 watts (if the weigh assumption was correct) for the minute then that's where you have to start. You don't have to do a full minute in order to train for a minute - which is a good thing because riding flat out for a minute just plain sucks and is probably the hardest thing to nail in all of cycling, even for the track guys that train for it let alone a 'slow twitcher'. The latter half of the interval session I posted above, combined with some L2 would make for a useful session. Start with fewer reps and work up. I guarantee the first few weeks will seem really really hard and after than it's still really really hard but it's made all the better by the fact that after about 4 to 6 weeks you'll start to see things really improving. But... those intervals are all best effort and pacing is only done to keep a consistent effort during the interval being ridden - you shouldn't pace to 'save' your legs for the next effort. Just picking numbers out of thin air - if you pick 500 watts for your 1 minute (for say, 6 reps) and you find after the 4th that you're toast then stop the one minute efforts and move onto the rest period and then the 30 second intervals. For the next session try ~475 and take if from there. Conversely, if you manage 500 and could do more then try more. Don't become a slave to the computer though - after a few hard efforts you'll get a feel for the pacing required. Ride the 30 second efforts flat out.

The weight loss would be useful but even if you did that you still need to generate more power and be able to repeat those efforts. I personally find that trying to lose weight AND doing short, very hard efforts extremely difficult to do at the same time. If you do go that route you might want to get all your intervals in early in the session and leave the L2 or L3 until later just in case you haven't eaten enough and start to bonk.
 

ciclotrainer

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Apr 24, 2011
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .




Between your last post and the first you pretty much answered your problem - but maybe there was a few too many trees to see the forest.

With an FTP of ~275 (3.6 w/kg) I'm guesstimating your weight to be around 168lbs (76Kg) which would put your 5m 4.9 w/kg and around ~375watts - which is fairly handy. Given that your 1m and 5sec don't make the profile (~430 or 775 watts respectively) tells us where you're coming up short.

You need to train your weaknesses. Lots of short, hard, violent efforts are needed.
.......
The weight loss would be useful but even if you did that you still need to generate more power and be able to repeat those efforts. I personally find that trying to lose weight AND doing short, very hard efforts extremely difficult to do at the same time. If you do go that route you might want to get all your intervals in early in the session and leave the L2 or L3 until later just in case you haven't eaten enough and start to bonk.
I think that the better choice is to train a lots and lots of short hard effort but not violent.
For race demands should be train the anaerobic endurance, for this work the power should be in anaerobic capacity level, not need to try various level of power. The power should be calculaite from correct FTP. A simple algorithm is very usefull.
Power = force (kg) X velocity (rpm), if FTP = 275 X90rpm you are able to push on pedal 3.06kg (X 60") at 90rpm or Force= power/rpm.
For more power need more velocity not more force, the level of power depends from rpm, if I push 3.06kg X100rpm the relative power is 306watts, but the force is the same.
In accordance with this the anaerobic endurance should be train at high rpm, in quadrant 1 of WKO+, with a very large lots of reps variuos time lenght.
The correct power should be calculaite from the personal FTP.
For FTP = 275w, 275/90rpm=3.06kg. Power intervall= 3.06X1.2=3.67kgX100rpm=367w, if you push on the pedal a very hard weight you not train the anaerobic endurance, but you train the force, but if you train the force you can done only few reps, but in the race will done >100 reps, for this reason the train should be in anaerobic endurance.
 

An old Guy

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Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by ciclotrainer .

I think that the better choice is to train a lots and lots of short hard effort but not violent.
For race demands should be train the anaerobic endurance, for this work the power should be in anaerobic capacity level, not need to try various level of power. The power should be calculate from correct FTP. A simple algorithm is very use full.
Power = force (kg) X velocity (rpm), if FTP = 275 X90rpm you are able to push on pedal 3.06kg (X 60") at 90rpm or Force= power/rpm.
For more power need more velocity not more force, the level of power depends from rpm, if I push 3.06kg X100rpm the relative power is 306watts, but the force is the same.
In accordance with this the anaerobic endurance should be train at high rpm, in quadrant 1 of WKO+, with a very large lots of reps various time Length.
The correct power should be calculate from the personal FTP.
For FTP = 275w, 275/90rpm=3.06kg. Power interval= 3.06X1.2=3.67kgX100rpm=367w, if you push on the pedal a very hard weight you not train the anaerobic endurance, but you train the force, but if you train the force you can done only few reps, but in the race will done >100 reps, for this reason the train should be in anaerobic endurance.
There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the demands of bicycling. High cadence or low cadence is one of them.

If you watch professional bicyclists, you will find a wide range of cadences on the same course and same power output. It is really hard to make the argument that some of them are doing it wrong. (That includes both training and racing.)


A long time ago when I had enough power to care I tested myself at various cadences at my FTP. There was very little difference over a wide range of cadences. Certainly between the 60's and and 100's. There are certainly differences between people. But most people have a very wide range of effective cadences.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Quote: Originally Posted by An old Guy .


There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the demands of bicycling. High cadence or low cadence is one of them.


Oh omniscient one, when do I get to read this long-anticipated book you're preparing with the intent to clear the fog from these (and many others') cloudy eyes...Your all-knowing contributions to mu threads in the past have left me wanting for more instruction and enlightenment...

Anyway, Ciclotrainer's first two words of his/her post were "I think"; vis a vis - a statement of opinion, not dictum. I can appreciate that, as I can in understanding that their post was an example and not necessarily a directive...the info proffered regarding effective pedal force decreasing as rev rate increases (power constant) is as valid now as it was when the bicycle was invented...

The OP should, while training, replicate as much as possible those efforts required when racing. Specifically, the discussion is a limiter being 1min power. If that means doing 1min intervals at high revs in order to keep from absolutely wasting the legs, then so be it - BTW, I don't see any place for doing 1min intervals ever at low (<70) revs, unless I just want to destroy my legs...that person who does 1min intervals in that low rev/hi force manner is an extreme anomaly and definitely "not most people"...
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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ciclotrainer said:
 
I think that the better choice is to train a lots and lots of short hard effort but not violent.
For race demands should be train the anaerobic endurance, for this work the power should be in anaerobic capacity level, not need to try various level of power. The power should be calculaite from correct FTP. A simple algorithm is very usefull.
Power = force (kg) X velocity (rpm), if FTP = 275 X90rpm you are able to push on pedal 3.06kg (X 60") at 90rpm or Force= power/rpm.
For more power need more velocity not more force, the level of power depends from rpm, if I push 3.06kg X100rpm the relative power is 306watts, but the force is the same.
In accordance with this the anaerobic endurance should be train at high rpm, in quadrant 1 of WKO+, with a very large lots of reps variuos time lenght.
The correct power should be calculaite from the personal FTP.
For FTP = 275w, 275/90rpm=3.06kg. Power intervall= 3.06X1.2=3.67kgX100rpm=367w, if you push on the pedal a very hard weight you not train the anaerobic endurance, but you train the force, but if you train the force you can done only few reps, but in the race will done >100 reps, for this reason the train should be in anaerobic endurance.

 
 
Not sure where you race but I don't think that doing short intervals at less that 370 watts is gonna do him a whole bunch of good. Maybe for 5 minute intervals but 1 minute and less, no... With regards to pedal cadence, since the season is under way and he's looking for a mid season fix he has to find out what works the best now and work his way towards what may ultimately be the best for him. If the OP finds he can do more 30 second intervals at his highest attainable power at 90rpm then thats what he's better off using for now. Theory is one thing, the here and now in the real world is often way different. At the end of the day a watt is a watt and more power with the same frontal area is gonna keep him closer to the wheels infront. In a race that lasts all of 45ish minutes worrying what your legs feel like because you can't do 100rpm to close the gaps should be the last thing on your mind. Figuring out what works best for him now and working off that should be the immediate priority. Thankfully for the OP his FTP ain't too bad for 4/5 cat, so a damned hard 6 to 8 week block that features a few hard interval sessions will yield some good improvement.
 

bgoetz

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Nov 25, 2010
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After reading this thread I think my racing tactics and lack of tactic mirror that of the OP pretty closely. I am pretty good at making the jump I need to make to close gaps, but I always feel like I am the one doing all of the work for those behind me, which may very well be the case. However, it may be me who is the one that is allowing a larger gap to open before making my move to close the gap. Many times during a race, such as today I get to the point where I try to make it a point that I want others to do some work so I sit back encouraging them to come around me and close the gap. Well today I did not realize that people had been dropped and there were only 4 of us, so that move cost me. My FTP is somewhere around 330, so during Cat 5 races I have been able to get away with this and still do well, in fact most of the time it is me that is making the gaps for others. The race today was the A group of our club race, which is a smaller group (10-15) of mostly Cat 1-3, so now I am the one responding to the gaps that they create and I am more closely matched in power and in many cases less powerful, so I certainly noticed the expended effort much more. I think working on this aspect of my racing will help, especially now that I am a Cat 4 and will be racing with those more closely matched in power.
 

ciclotrainer

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Apr 24, 2011
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .



Quote: Originally Posted by ciclotrainer .




I think that the better choice is to train a lots and lots of short hard effort but not violent.
For race demands should be train the anaerobic endurance, for this work the power should be in anaerobic capacity level, not need to try various level of power. The power should be calculaite from correct FTP. A simple algorithm is very usefull.
Power = force (kg) X velocity (rpm), if FTP = 275 X90rpm you are able to push on pedal 3.06kg (X 60") at 90rpm or Force= power/rpm.
For more power need more velocity not more force, the level of power depends from rpm, if I push 3.06kg X100rpm the relative power is 306watts, but the force is the same.
In accordance with this the anaerobic endurance should be train at high rpm, in quadrant 1 of WKO+, with a very large lots of reps variuos time lenght.
The correct power should be calculaite from the personal FTP.
For FTP = 275w, 275/90rpm=3.06kg. Power intervall= 3.06X1.2=3.67kgX100rpm=367w, if you push on the pedal a very hard weight you not train the anaerobic endurance, but you train the force, but if you train the force you can done only few reps, but in the race will done >100 reps, for this reason the train should be in anaerobic endurance.

.....
At the end of the day a watt is a watt and more power with the same frontal area is gonna keep him closer to the wheels infront. ....

.....



I agree with you, but you know that watt is the another name of the joule, 1w = 1j. I would offer you another vision of the same problem, the back side of the money.
When you go at 300watts, you go at 300j X second, you can done an effort of 20' at this wattage only if your tank have a fuel that need for this effort.
The same is for all the CP for all time interval. When you train very close at your CP, for exemple 1', your tank will be empity more fast.
I think that a good training system should be train all energetic system, from short term to long term endurance, but not near respective CP.
The problem is that in training you should done more power, but in race you need more speed with less power, the race will win not with more power, but if you have more fuel towards the line.
In a race you can burn only 2-3 match, if you train your energetic system you can delay the fatigue because you not burn a match, your tank should be never empity, and you will be able to refuel very fast after every effort.
If you train on longer intervall your tank will be in the same capacity forever. If you train on short intervall you can train all energetic system, ATP-pcr, anaerobic glycolisis and aerobic glycolisis during the rest, and your tank gets bigger and bigger.
 

An old Guy

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Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .


Oh omniscient one, when do I get to read this long-anticipated book you're preparing with the intent to clear the fog from these (and many others') cloudy eyes...Your all-knowing contributions to mu threads in the past have left me wanting for more instruction and enlightenment...

Anyway, Ciclotrainer's first two words of his/her post were "I think"; vis a vis - a statement of opinion, not dictum. I can appreciate that, as I can in understanding that their post was an example and not necessarily a directive...the info proffered regarding effective pedal force decreasing as rev rate increases (power constant) is as valid now as it was when the bicycle was invented...

The OP should, while training, replicate as much as possible those efforts required when racing. Specifically, the discussion is a limiter being 1min power. If that means doing 1min intervals at high revs in order to keep from absolutely wasting the legs, then so be it - BTW, I don't see any place for doing 1min intervals ever at low (<70) revs, unless I just want to destroy my legs...that person who does 1min intervals in that low rev/hi force manner is an extreme anomaly and definitely "not most people"...
This is a message board. Different people have different styles. You and Ciclotrainer seem as omniscient. Perhaps even more so.

If I am doing 1 minute intervals, I am most likely over 120rpm. But if I am putting out only 3-600w chasing someone for a minute or so, I can do that below 70rpm. You need to know abot the situation to make any statement about a reasonable cadence.

But I agree with others: 5 minutes is a more reasonable time frame than 1 minute.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by An old Guy .



This is a message board. Different people have different styles. You and Ciclotrainer seem as omniscient. Perhaps even more so.

If I am doing 1 minute intervals, I am most likely over 120rpm. But if I am putting out only 3-600w chasing someone for a minute or so, I can do that below 70rpm. You need to know abot the situation to make any statement about a reasonable cadence.

But I agree with others: 5 minutes is a more reasonable time frame than 1 minute.
Oh, okay - my mistake. Apparently I was confused - yes, again. When you set yourself up as this guru by stating, "There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the demands of bicycling", admittedly I was excited and expecting a dearth of information to clear the fog from my head. The statement gave the implication that you're of the wisdom to discern truth from fallacy; fact from fiction; that which is to be understood from that which leads those down the primrose path...No prob - I've been let down before...

L6 intervals (1min) intervals or chasing someone down at <70rpm? Be my guest. Sure, anyone can do it, but in a race situation you'd be a fool to stay in that gear for that short and "violent" effort...to each his own though...
 

An old Guy

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Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .




Oh, okay - my mistake. Apparently I was confused - yes, again. When you set yourself up as this guru by stating, "There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the demands of bicycling", admittedly I was excited and expecting a dearth of information to clear the fog from my head. The statement gave the implication that you're of the wisdom to discern truth from fallacy; fact from fiction; that which is to be understood from that which leads those down the primrose path...No prob - I've been let down before...

L6 intervals (1min) intervals or chasing someone down at <70rpm? Be my guest. Sure, anyone can do it, but in a race situation you'd be a fool to stay in that gear for that short and "violent" effort...to each his own though...
I can do a bit of math.

300-600w is not L6. It is certainly not a violent effort - after such an effort my heart rate is 20 beats below my max. I think you confuse L6 training which is much different than putting out L6 power levels. L6 training requires some sort of depletion of resources before doing the L6 effort. While the 300-600w power might match the power output of L6 training, it lacks the depletion before the effort.

300-600w at 70rpm is equivalent (pedal force) to 600-1200w at 140rpm and only half the work (power x distance). If you can handle 600w at 140 or less, your can handle 300w at 70. (You can do the math on your personal numbers.) The numbers seem reasonable to me.
---

You were expecting some debunking of misunderstandings. I can help:

1) Many people believe and preach that "proper" cadence is important. As long as cadence is reasonable, power is all that is important (w/kg, w/CdA, w). Usually the power you bring to the last 5K is all that really matters. As long as the guys stronger than me are pushing their pedals they are going to beat me. The guys stronger than you are going to beat you.

2) Many people believe that low cadence is harmful. If you can ride at 300w at 90rpm, riding at 200w and 60rpm places the same loads (really less but ...) on your joints. Low rpm does not hurt your joints.

3) Many people believe that they know the proper cadence for everyone - 90rpm. It is easy to find videos of pros using low cadence - 60-70, riding side by side with pros using high cadence.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by An old Guy .


I can do a bit of math.

300-600w is not L6. It is certainly not a violent effort - after such an effort my heart rate is 20 beats below my max. I think you confuse L6 training which is much different than putting out L6 power levels. L6 training requires some sort of depletion of resources before doing the L6 effort. While the 300-600w power might match the power output of L6 training, it lacks the depletion before the effort.

300-600w at 70rpm is equivalent (pedal force) to 600-1200w at 140rpm and only half the work (power x distance). If you can handle 600w at 140 or less, your can handle 300w at 70. (You can do the math on your personal numbers.) The numbers seem reasonable to me.
---

You were expecting some debunking of misunderstandings. I can help:

1) Many people believe and preach that "proper" cadence is important. As long as cadence is reasonable, power is all that is important (w/kg, w/CdA, w). Usually the power you bring to the last 5K is all that really matters. As long as the guys stronger than me are pushing their pedals they are going to beat me. The guys stronger than you are going to beat you.

2) Many people believe that low cadence is harmful. If you can ride at 300w at 90rpm, riding at 200w and 60rpm places the same loads (really less but ...) on your joints. Low rpm does not hurt your joints.

3) Many people believe that they know the proper cadence for everyone - 90rpm. It is easy to find videos of pros using low cadence - 60-70, riding side by side with pros using high cadence.
The strawman you're arguing with (300-600w L6 intervals) must be fairly formidable...never posed by me though...


Regarding the alleged debunking, how do you quantify "many people"? IMO, your assumption to know that "many people believe" is presumptuous...What's a "reasonable" cadence according to you? am I to presume that what's reasonable for you is reasonable for me or the OP?...Lastly, Ciclotrainer never proposed a best/proper cadence for the OP, merely give an illustration regarding the reduction in pedal force between employing a higher cadence versus lower cadence (other aspects being equal) - and that's the most important message to be conveyed here and should not be lost in all the other extemporaneous chatter...exactly what those higher and lower cadences may be for the OP are for the OP to determine...

Thanks for trying to assist - maybe some people had some fog cleared today...
 

ciclotrainer

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Apr 24, 2011
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .



?...Lastly, Ciclotrainer never proposed a best/proper cadence for the OP, merely give an illustration regarding the reduction in pedal force between employing a higher cadence versus lower cadence (other aspects being equal) - and that's the most important message to be conveyed here and should not be lost in all the other extemporaneous chatter...exactly what those higher and lower cadences may be for the OP are for the OP to determine...
Thanks, it is just wich I think.
The best/proper cadence is another problem, the best ratio force/cadence is a personal quality.
But for training exist a very best tool that was create, it's a quadrant in WKO+.
I think that every training session should have an obiective, if you train the force for clinbing and the work not fall in quadrant 2 it's not proper training for cimb, if you train for time trial and the work not fall in quadrant 4 you not train for TT, also if you would train for anaerobic capacity and your training not fall in quadrant 1 you not train for anaerobic capacity, finally if you would make a recovery ride session and your work not fall in quadrant 3 you maybe not made a recovery training.
Every workout that you would make, should have a proper force/cadence ratio in according with quadrant grafic in WKO+.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by ciclotrainer .



I agree with you, but you know that watt is the another name of the joule, 1w = 1j. I would offer you another vision of the same problem, the back side of the money.
When you go at 300watts, you go at 300j X second, you can done an effort of 20' at this wattage only if your tank have a fuel that need for this effort.
The same is for all the CP for all time interval. When you train very close at your CP, for exemple 1', your tank will be empity more fast.
I think that a good training system should be train all energetic system, from short term to long term endurance, but not near respective CP.
The problem is that in training you should done more power, but in race you need more speed with less power, the race will win not with more power, but if you have more fuel towards the line.
In a race you can burn only 2-3 match, if you train your energetic system you can delay the fatigue because you not burn a match, your tank should be never empity, and you will be able to refuel very fast after every effort.
If you train on longer intervall your tank will be in the same capacity forever. If you train on short intervall you can train all energetic system, ATP-pcr, anaerobic glycolisis and aerobic glycolisis during the rest, and your tank gets bigger and bigger.
Call it what you want. Watt, Joule... call it Shirley and put some panties and lipstick on it for all I care. I'm sure the OP doesn't care "watt" it's called when he sees people heading off up the road.

The OP's "problem" seems to be two fold - it would seem that he can't make the power - period, for just one rep. Once that's been addressed then he'll need to take care of getting used to putting out that power many times. His FTP and 5min seem good enough for the races he's doing. 1 minute isn't a "long interval" but if anything I'd say that getting him to nail lots of 30 second efforts in the course of a session would be mentally easier and more tollerable and most surges are less than a minute and if they weren't then the OP probably would be OK given the w/kg for his longer efforts.

Doing 30 second efforts at anything less than "full on", IMHO, is just a waste of time. A great time frame to use too unless you want the last 20 seconds of perpetual death that a one minute effort brings me.

Theorising about economy in a race (winners often use less energy etc etc) is way off scope for this thread as you have to be in a position to hold any given wheel whilst in the bunch at any given time. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case.

Old Guy - 600 watts not L6? Damn, you're a stud. I bet you put out 500 watts for 3 hours before breakfast. Last I heard L6 was generally an interval <3 minutes. Can you keep 600 watts for 3 minutes?
 

An old Guy

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Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .

The strawman you're arguing with (300-600w L6 intervals) must be fairly formidable...never posed by me though....
Originally Posted by tonyzackery .

L6 intervals (1min) intervals or chasing someone down at <70rpm? Be my guest. Sure, anyone can do it, but in a race situation you'd be a fool to stay in that gear for that short and "violent" effort...to each his own though...
I guess someone else is using your login.
 

An old Guy

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Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

... you have to be in a position to hold any given wheel whilst in the bunch at any given time. Right now that doesn't seem to be the case

Old Guy - 600 watts not L6? Damn, you're a stud. Last I heard L6 was generally an interval <3 minutes. Can you keep 600 watts for 3 minutes?

We seem to agree that power is all that is important. We seem to agree that the OP lacks the necessary power. I will disagree with your comment about holding position. The OP needs a plan that will accomplish his goal. Not all such plans involve chasing the guy in front - now and hard. But that does seem to be a popular plan.

Doing 1 minute, 3 minute, 5 minute or whatever intervals you might suggest will not help unless the OP has a plan that will make use of the fitness that those short efforts develop.

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600w and L6 ... (I said I do 300-600w for 30 seconds.)

What you are confusing are 600w when one has depleted all of one's resources with 600w when one has NOT depleted all of one's resources. You might look at the stochastic thread for some comments about that. 600w 1 minute intervals in training are upper Cat1 power output. And I am not that young.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by An old Guy .




We seem to agree that power is all that is important. We seem to agree that the OP lacks the necessary power. I will disagree with your comment about holding position. The OP needs a plan that will accomplish his goal. Not all such plans involve chasing the guy in front - now and hard. But that does seem to be a popular plan.

Doing 1 minute, 3 minute, 5 minute or whatever intervals you might suggest will not help unless the OP has a plan that will make use of the fitness that those short efforts develop.

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600w and L6 ... (I said I do 300-600w for 30 seconds.)

What you are confusing are 600w when one has depleted all of one's resources with 600w when one has NOT depleted all of one's resources. You might look at the stochastic thread for some comments about that. 600w 1 minute intervals in training are upper Cat1 power output. And I am not that young.

Being able to hold position in the bunch is key. If you don't have the power to respond to surges and end up slipping back then you'll never be in a position to respond to any big attacks that look like they actually might amount to something - and you have to be able to do that without digging yourself gradually into a significant hole. I'm not saying you have to blast your brains out but if you can't stay fairly comfortably in the first 1/3 of the bunch then you'll end up making things harder for yourself than they need to be.

You can always find ways of making use of the fitness gained from short intervals. One can assume that he's racing and therefore a prime candidate but even if you were just thrashing yourself on the local chaingang or midweek ride then it's still nice to have that extra power for those signpost sprints or the top of the hill slugfests.

I'm not confusing anything with regards to the OPs power. He says he's never hit those kind of numbers period, so doing so at the end of the race doesn't even factor into the equation... yet - he has to start somewhere so hitting the numbers just once is a start.

600w for 1 minute would put you in upper Cat1 territory if you weighed ~130 to 135lbs. Personally, the last time I weighed that was when I was about 13. Even my old race weight (at 26) was mid to low 140s and hitting around 10w/kg would require around 660 watts.