please read : Integrated headset

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Mica, Apr 20, 2003.

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  1. Mica

    Mica Guest



  2. Harris

    Harris Guest

  3. Great article, bicycle 'design' run amok. I heard from a frameset builder that frame welders love 1
    1/8inch and integrated cuz it makes the head tube bigger, making the welding of big tubes to it
    easier..no performance advantages tho-

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. > please readtthis article and give any comment
    >
    http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_1.html

    Integrated vs std headset issues are a bit overblown, particularly for road bikes. We sell quite a
    few bikes with integrated headsets (TREK 2300s, LeMond Ti bikes) and have yet to see a problem. The
    sample size of the 2300 is large enough that I feel safe saying that, properly implemented, they
    work very well.

    The choice to go with an integrated headset is motivated primarily by style points; if this is
    irrelevant, and you're concerned about them, then choose something different. But don't assume
    problems based upon Chris King's piece.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Guest

    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message >

    > The choice to go with an integrated headset is motivated primarily by
    style
    > points; if this is irrelevant, and you're concerned about them, then
    choose
    > something different. But don't assume problems based upon Chris King's piece.

    Some questions then.

    How easy are they (integrated headsets) to adjust/replace/install by the home mechanic ?.

    Are special tools (and are they expensive ?) required ?.

    Do they last longer then a standard Aheadset/threaded device ?.

    It's a pertinent question as I contemplate a potential replacement (and/or credit towards) for a '94
    Klein Quantum. Seems the new Kleins all use integrated headsets, which would not be my first choice
    in most cases.

    Steve Bailey
     
  6. > Some questions then.
    >
    > How easy are they (integrated headsets) to adjust/replace/install by the home mechanic ?.

    Adjustment is no different than any other threadless headset (in other words, very easy). We haven't
    had to replace one yet, so I don't have direct experience with how it might be different than a
    conventional headset... it's something I'll have to ask my service manager.

    >
    > Are special tools (and are they expensive ?) required ?.

    Probably no different than the tools needed for a conventional headset. If you try to install a
    regular headset without the proper tools and goof, you can damage the frame's headtube by ovalizing
    it, possibly even causing it to crack. In the end I doubt there's any difference in what you'd spend
    for appropriate tooling either way.

    >
    > Do they last longer then a standard Aheadset/threaded device ?.

    My sample size is pretty large, so I can say that, for the bikes we sell, there have been no
    indications that they'd be less sturdy than a conventional style. However, we only have two years
    experience with large qtys, so I cannot yet tell you that they'll last as long. I have no reason to
    believe otherwise, but, in the end, nothing trumps the real world for accurate data.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
  7. Woogoogle

    Woogoogle Guest

    "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > Some questions then.
    >
    > How easy are they (integrated headsets) to adjust/replace/install by the home mechanic ?.
    >
    > Are special tools (and are they expensive ?) required ?.
    >
    > Do they last longer then a standard Aheadset/threaded device ?.
    >
    > It's a pertinent question as I contemplate a potential replacement (and/or credit towards) for a
    > '94 Klein Quantum. Seems the new Kleins all use integrated headsets, which would not be my first
    > choice in most cases.
    >
    > Steve Bailey

    Do you already have the tools to install/remove a standard Aheadset/threaded device? It's sort of
    rhetorical, why are you worried about it if you don't already have an investment in it. It's not
    cheap unless one plans on doing a lot of maintenance work - thread cutter, fork cutter aligner,
    headset press, aheadset cups for different manufacturers and sizes, cup remover, fork race remover,
    etc. I have this junk, that's one big reason I don't want to switch.
     
  8. Mike J-<< Integrated vs std headset issues are a bit overblown, particularly for road bikes. We
    sell quite a few bikes with integrated headsets (TREK 2300s, LeMond Ti bikes) and have yet to see
    a problem.

    Seem two problems in Italian aluminum framesets, from an astonishingly small sample, I am surprized
    they showed problems so fast...

    << The sample size of the 2300 is large enough that I feel safe saying that, properly implemented,
    they work very well.

    Guess ys gotta say that(and I'm sure you are right about what you see) but these HS' answers no
    question, solves no problem...

    << But don't assume problems based upon Chris King's piece.

    See above-re two Italian aluminum framesets.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Guest

    "WooGoogle" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > Do you already have the tools to install/remove a standard Aheadset/threaded device?

    Yes, although I only just purchased an Aheadset nut setter. I already have a Park headset press,
    which has presses for assorted sizes of cups, as well as owning a cup remover and installers and
    have successfully removed and installed threaded headsets for years. I haven't had to replace the
    Raceface Aheadset on the Proflex, but have 4 other bikes that use threaded and am about to build up
    a Douglas Ti frame that has 1" threadless.

    > It's sort of rhetorical, why are you worried about it if you don't already
    have an investment in it. It's not cheap unless one plans on doing a lot of maintenance work -
    thread cutter, fork cutter aligner, headset press, aheadset cups for different manufacturers and
    sizes, cup remover, fork race remover, etc. I have this junk, that's one big reason I don't want
    to switch.

    I was concerned as to the possibility of a replacement frame from Klein having an integrated headset
    that I have no clue how to maintain, nor the tools to do so - having no information as to whether
    they are significantly different from other type of headsets. In the event Klein does send a new
    frame (which is doubtful anyway) I would like to think I could continue to do my own maintenance.

    In reality, having a Klein with yet another standard in headset design that I don't want to deal
    with, changes my opinion about the frame design. I might well take a credit towards something else
    from Trek, if offered, if only to standardize what bikes I have and what parts they use.

    Steve Bailey.
     
  10. My guess is that the quality of head tube used (the aluminum and how well it's machined) might make
    a significant difference in the durability and efficiency of an integrated headset. The 2300 is a
    very high-end aluminum frame; TREK doesn't use integrated headsets on their lower models. I'll talk
    with one of their engineers and see what I can find out-

    (One advantage that I think TREK has over many companies is that the engineers who design things are
    about 100 feet away from where they're actually produced. When problems come up, they're found very
    quickly and things grind to a halt until a fix is worked out- I've seen this happen in the past...
    much different than something made overseas to someone's spec here, and you don't find out about the
    problem until you've landed several containers of product.)

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Mike J-<< Integrated vs std headset issues are a bit overblown,
    particularly
    > for road bikes. We sell quite a few bikes with integrated headsets (TREK 2300s, LeMond Ti bikes)
    > and have yet to see a problem.
    >
    > Seem two problems in Italian aluminum framesets, from an astonishingly
    small
    > sample, I am surprized they showed problems so fast...
    >
    >
    > << The sample size of the 2300 is large enough that I feel safe saying that, properly implemented,
    > they work very well.
    >
    > Guess ys gotta say that(and I'm sure you are right about what you see) but these HS' answers no
    > question, solves no problem...
    >
    >
    > << But don't assume problems based upon Chris King's piece.
    >
    > See above-re two Italian aluminum framesets.
    >
    >
    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  11. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Mike Jacoubowsky writes:

    > My guess is that the quality of head tube used (the aluminum and how well it's machined) might
    > make a significant difference in the durability and efficiency of an integrated headset. The 2300
    > is a very high-end aluminum frame; TREK doesn't use integrated headsets on their lower models.
    > I'll talk with one of their engineers and see what I can find out-

    I don't understand what you mean "how well it is machined". Either the parts are within tolerance or
    not and then they don't meet drawing specifications. This is the way cars, trucks, aircraft,
    computers and anything else is built commercially. Such vague references to precision have the ring
    of advertising hype.

    > (One advantage that I think TREK has over many companies is that the engineers who design things
    > are about 100 feet away from where they're actually produced. When problems come up, they're found
    > very quickly and things grind to a halt until a fix is worked out- I've seen this happen in the
    > past... much different than something made overseas to someone's spec here, and you don't find out
    > about the problem until you've landed several containers of product.)

    That may be the image of component design but it isn't so. The problems lie with the quality of
    engineers, not the distance to the shop, actually or otherwise. Good design and proper drawings,
    together with thorough incoming quality inspection is the how this is done. Besides, incorrectly
    finished parts can generally not be repaired, regardless of how close the machine shop is,
    especially in production quantities.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  12. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Mica" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > please readtthis article and give any comment
    >
    >
    http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds _explain_1.html

    It all seems reasonable to me.

    I think these integrated things are silly -- I can't thnk of any reason to use this design except
    for looks, and even then the difference is so small as to be negligeable. If they want a cleaner
    look, they should concentrate on their ugly stems instead.

    For awhile I speculated that maybe it was cheaper to machine a head tube than to press in a couple
    of headset cups. It doesn't make sense to me, but since I'm not running Trek's line I can't say.

    My question is -- do you think there will eventually be retrofit repair kits for these headsets?

    As it stands, I wouldn't buy a bike with one.

    Matt O.
     
  13. I havge to agree. I may not be a MIT accredited engineer, but even I can see that making ahe headset
    bearings (which take a lot of pounding) as an intigral part of the frame is stupid.

    What happens when they wear out? Do you just throw away a $500+ frame and buy a new one? I'd rather
    have a bike that looks a little less cool, but will have a decent lifetime, personally.

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  14. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Mike J-<< Integrated vs std headset issues are a bit overblown, particularly for road bikes. We
    > sell quite a few bikes with integrated headsets (TREK 2300s, LeMond Ti bikes) and have yet to see
    > a problem.
    >
    > Seem two problems in Italian aluminum framesets, from an astonishingly small sample, I am
    > surprized they showed problems so fast...

    Just out of curiosity, what were the nature of the problems? Were they easy or difficult to correct?

    Mark McMaster [email protected]
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Guest

    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    SB wrote:
    > > How easy are they (integrated headsets) to adjust/replace/install by the
    home mechanic ?.

    MJ wrote:
    > We haven't had to replace one yet, so I don't have direct experience with
    how it might be different than a conventional
    > headset... it's something I'll have to ask my service manager.

    I have to tell you that I'm a bit surprised by the answer. I would think you would want to know how
    easy and/or hard repairs would be and as importantly, if you had the tools to do so before you add
    it to your product line. I know that earlier Kleins had a b-bracket that was a bit of a pain to
    service, using a pressed in b-bracket and a tool that some shops found expensive to have to keep
    around, given how few bikes it could be used on. It seems that integrated is a similar scenario. A
    good bit of gimmick that has many negative issues, potential frame damage being one of them - if I'm
    interpreting the other post correctly.

    And what is the answer to my original question ?. Just how involved is service ?. Do they press in
    using existing press tools ?. Is removal the same ?. Is there potential damage to the frame that
    doesn't exist in existing designs ?.

    Curious

    Steve B.
     
  16. matt-<< I think these integrated things are silly -- I can't thnk of any reason to use this design
    except for looks,

    Bike design is stagnant, bike sales have been flat for years. 'Designers', driven by the marketing
    and finance departments, rely on gadgets and gizmos rather than real innovations that get you onnna
    bike and keep you there.

    Compact, carbon rear ends, threadless, 1 1/8 inch, integrated HS, oversized handlebars, all are
    'designed', then foisted as 'performance improvements', by marketing.

    Lever mounted shifting, click shifting, good working road triples, clipless pedals, not much else I
    have seen that makes riding more enjoyable, making the bike 'disappear', making the ride the object,
    not the equipment...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  17. > > My guess is that the quality of head tube used (the aluminum and how well it's machined) might
    > > make a significant difference in the durability and efficiency of an integrated headset. The
    > > 2300 is a very high-end aluminum frame; TREK doesn't use integrated headsets on their lower
    > > models. I'll talk with one of their engineers and see what I can find out-
    >
    > I don't understand what you mean "how well it is machined". Either the parts are within tolerance
    > or not and then they don't meet drawing specifications. This is the way cars, trucks, aircraft,
    > computers and anything else is built commercially. Such vague references to precision have the
    > ring of advertising hype.

    If you, as an engineer, cannot understand what I meant because I said "how well it is machined"
    instead of "not machined to proper tolerances" then I can see engineers have a hard time
    understanding why the finished product isn't what they expected. The only hype I see is that of an
    engineer trying to be so precise that only other engineers might understand him. That's not
    precision, that's obfuscation.

    > > (One advantage that I think TREK has over many companies is that the engineers who design things
    > > are about 100 feet away from where they're actually produced. When problems come up, they're
    > > found very quickly and things grind to a halt until a fix is worked out- I've seen this happen
    > > in the past... much different than something made overseas to someone's spec here, and you don't
    > > find out about the problem until you've landed several containers of product.)
    >
    > That may be the image of component design but it isn't so. The problems lie with the quality of
    > engineers, not the distance to the shop, actually or otherwise. Good design and proper drawings,
    > together with thorough incoming quality inspection is the how this is done. Besides, incorrectly
    > finished parts can generally not be repaired, regardless of how close the machine shop is,
    > especially in production quantities.

    So you don't believe that a faster feedback loop doesn't have a positive effect on quality?

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
  18. > MJ wrote:
    > > We haven't had to replace one yet, so I don't have direct experience
    with
    > how it might be different than a conventional
    > > headset... it's something I'll have to ask my service manager.
    >
    Steve replied
    > I have to tell you that I'm a bit surprised by the answer. I would think you would want to know
    > how easy and/or hard repairs would be and as importantly, if you had the tools to do so before you
    > add it to your
    product
    > line.

    There's not much I can't do to a bicycle, but the fact that I haven't torn apart an integrated
    headset (aside from the 1/2 integrated headset on my
    5900)... well, to be honest, it just doesn't bother me. That's what I have an exceptional service
    manager for. My time is spent in half a zillion different areas (including time spent on-line
    in newsgroups), as is that of most shop owners. I grew up as a mechanic, and there's little I
    enjoy more than making a bicycle live up to its potential. But I don't have enough time in the
    day to get involved in every single thing and, since integrated headsets haven't reared their
    ugly head as a problem area, they haven't gotten much attention from me.

    But yes, we have all required tooling to install and remove them. That was the case before the first
    one came in the door. We also have all required tooling to work on pressed-in Klein bottom brackets,
    which you also brought up.

    > And what is the answer to my original question ?. Just how involved is service ?. Do they press in
    > using existing press tools ?. Is removal the same ?. Is there potential damage to the frame that
    > doesn't exist in existing designs ?.

    I think you'll find all your questions answered here-
    http://www.canecreek.com/site/product/headset/info/pdf/IS_eng.pdf

    Basically, there are no special tools whatsoever needed to overhaul an integrated headset of the
    CaneCreek style. The fork crown race is the only thing that requires tools for proper installation,
    and it's the same tool you'd use for a conventional headset.

    Potential frame damage may occur in either an integrated or standard headset if the bike suffers a
    significant impact to the fork, or someone really botches up the installation or the initial
    machining of the head tube. More care is involved in machining the head tube of an integrated
    headset bike, because you're not simply squaring the ends of the headtube and reaming to a
    specific diameter, but also machining a shelf on the inside of the headtube that the cartridge
    bearing sits on.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
  19. Amit

    Amit Guest

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > matt-<< I think these integrated things are silly -- I can't thnk of any reason to use this design
    > except for looks,
    >
    > Bike design is stagnant, bike sales have been flat for years. 'Designers', driven by the marketing
    > and finance departments, rely on gadgets and gizmos rather than real innovations that get you
    > onnna bike and keep you there.
    >
    > Compact, carbon rear ends, threadless, 1 1/8 inch, integrated HS, oversized handlebars, all are
    > 'designed', then foisted as 'performance improvements', by marketing.
    >
    > Lever mounted shifting, click shifting, good working road triples, clipless pedals, not much else
    > I have seen that makes riding more enjoyable, making the bike 'disappear', making the ride the
    > object, not the equipment...
    >
    >

    Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all before. Do you sell bikes with clamp on cable guides and
    "non-aero" brake cable routing too ?

    Why don't you just say you're in love with the bikes from when you got into cycling (lugs, chrome
    and Campy) and you're prejudiced against any development since ? If threaded steerer tubes were a
    new development you'd argue they are inferior and a gimmick.

    -Amit
     
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