please support this new cycling website

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Cadfael, May 12, 2003.

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  1. Cadfael

    Cadfael Guest

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  2. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    Ambrose Nankivell wrote in uk.rec.cycling: about: Re: please support this new cycling website

    > In news:[email protected], Cadfael <cadf[email protected]> typed:
    >> Just doing my bit for the world of cycling. I got this link from a small TV advert:

    A TV advert? Interesting.. I had enough problems getting management to spend any money on *any*
    promotional materials, hence putting a lot of work into the website, it was the only 'no-cost'
    publicity outlet I had..

    Obviously now that they actually have somebody with clue in a management position in the shape of
    Ian Maxwell, perhaps they're able to organise themselves to do the job properly rather than flog
    their staff to death and allow them no input into the direction of the organisation while ignoring
    their concerns - or ideas.

    >>
    >> http://www.scottishcycling.org/
    >
    > Isn't that David Marsh's (a uk.rec.cycling regular) organisation? (The one where he works,
    > that is)

    Once upon a time it was, yes. :-(

    Trust me, if I was still working for them, you would have heard any news about the SCDP from me,
    assuming I wasn't being worked into the ground so much as to not allow me time to fire out a news
    release (and I certainly wouldn't have done anything as moronic as changing domain names (especially
    for no good reason) after the work I put in building up inbound links to my original SCDP website:
    cool URIs don't change)). Incidentally, most of the content on that website is either still a copy
    of my original work, or heavily based on it (except my HTML/CSS was valid and my downloads not
    Windoze-centric) which somebody else is obviously now getting the credit for.

    They treated us like shit and both of us finally resigned last summer as the majority of our five
    bosses found ways to constantly pick trivial holes in _everything_ we did (even/especially when we
    were firefighting around their non-leadership (or sudden holiday trips without even telling us), as
    we often had to), just kept throwing work at us regardless of resource availability (ie, nowt but
    two people working independently with no backup in case of illness or holiday), rarely actually
    liaised with staff or engaged in actual management and did not even remotely acknowledge or show any
    gratitude for the incredible amount of unpaid/unTOILed overtime we were forced to put in order to
    save the organisation from such, well, disorganisation. (It's all rather soured my opinion of
    'voluntary sector' work, where you don't expect to be so abused by your bosses, and has used up
    virtually all of my goodwill for mankind, sadly)

    I finally had to quit after suffering near-total physical and mental exhaustion after having to
    attend evening meetings until 11pm on a very frequent basis, often having to work partial weekends
    with no time off ever offered and having no spare time/capacity to take any holiday in 6 months with
    event dates looming and *nobody* to share the mounting workload with. And being made to feel
    inadequate when 'daring' to ask for TOIL after working non-stop physically intense shifts 7am-7pm
    Sundays for said events, Scotland's biggest cycling events, after sacrificing my whole weekend,
    weeks of stress firefighting while having extra work continually dumped on me at fully-scheduled
    times, despite my protests that this was not possible, didn't help my morale (or the scheduling of
    the fundraising/logistics for these events) either.

    [And I'm currently still unable to work as doctors now try to sort out what they regard as
    extremely high blood pressure which they reckon has developed over the last 12 - 18 months, not
    uncoincidental I'm sure]

    If any of you went to Glasgow Cyclefest or Pedal for Scotland in previous years, I do hope you
    enjoyed them. Glasgow Cyclefest is alleged to be happening again this year, but after managing to
    progressively piss off every volunteer (and myself) previously involved in the event by throwing
    obstacles in the way of managing an event of that magnitude (including extreme
    laissez-faire/stealing time from event organisation followed by sticking-nose-in-at-last-minute by
    which time it is too late to recover from such management-induced problems) it will be 'interesting'
    to see if they can pull off an event even vaguely approaching that size (1000 participants, over 25
    cycling events including cycle racing) effectively from scratch.. And there's been zero publicity
    for it, either.

    Funnily enough, nobody in the cycling community has heard a peep from the replacement staff members,
    or the organisation as a whole, since then.. Goodness knows what they're up to now. At least I tried
    to keep the public as informed as I could with the insane pressures on my time (when not fighting
    CTC HQ to publicise our work, after my boss's broken promises to liaise with them: "Why didn't you
    let me know the copy dates?" "We only promote CTC activities" "Yes, you part-fund us, we're your
    'doing things' arm in Scotland" "But you're not CTC" <thud, thud, thud>)

    Honestly, I thought Dilbert was a work of fiction until I went through that nightmare.

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    begin Once upon a time, there was a badly-broken newsreader program...
     
  3. In news:[email protected], David Marsh
    <[email protected]> typed: <snip>
    > Honestly, I thought Dilbert was a work of fiction until I went through that nightmare.

    Oh dear. I'm sorry to hear about it.

    My Mum got eaten up and spat out in a non-profit while I was growing up, so it wasn't too surprising
    a story, sad though it is.

    I turned into Wally about 5 months into my previous job. Not uncoincidentally that was shortly after
    the User Interface guru who (e.g.) insisted email was spelt eMail joined (it was a programming job
    on a highly email-centric product).

    Hope you don't have too many bad associations with bikes to enjoy a ride.

    Ambrose
     
  4. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Tue, 13 May 2003 20:55:08 +0100, David Marsh <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Honestly, I thought Dilbert was a work of fiction until I went through that nightmare.

    Another victom of drive-by management? My sympathies. I've always known that Dilbert is a
    documentary, mind...

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  5. Cadfael

    Cadfael Guest

    "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In news:[email protected], Cadfael <[email protected]> typed:
    > > Just doing my bit for the world of cycling. I got this link from a small TV advert:
    > >
    > > http://www.scottishcycling.org/
    >
    > Isn't that David Marsh's (a uk.rec.cycling regular) organisation? (The one where he works,
    > that is)

    I don't know! But anything that encourages people to get out of their stinking cars and onto
    bicycles can't be a bad thing.
     
  6. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments] Cadfael wrote in uk.rec.cycling: about:
    Re: please support this new cycling website

    > I don't know! But anything that encourages people to get out of their stinking cars and onto
    > bicycles can't be a bad thing.

    Except that, despite my building up a quite informative website, doing a *lot* of work on travel
    plans/Cycle-Friendly Employer award schemes, starting to build up a cycle training scheme and
    network of trainers, and providing information on cycle routes, what was I made to focus the vast
    majority of my time (and then some ludicrous overtime) on?

    Organising "fun" (but ultimately 'pointless') events for _existing cyclists_ that only ever preached
    to the already converted. Yes, an important part of the promotional picture, but actual contribution
    to getting any new people out of cars, compared to the above other projects: absolutely nil.

    (Heck, one of the few Cycle-Friendly Employer candidates that I was actually given time to seek out
    or progress had to wait almost *nine months* for my bosses to get their act together to approve the
    result of the assessment, after my site visit to assess their provision for cyclists. As you can
    imagine, the candidate organisation was getting quite pissed off by that stage..)

    I hope that with a new person on the management team the project now actually starts to work more on
    the actual genuine development of cycling and encouraging new cyclists..

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    begin Once upon a time, there was a badly-broken newsreader program...
     
  7. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments] Ambrose Nankivell wrote in
    uk.rec.cycling: about: Re: please support this new cycling website

    > In news:[email protected], David Marsh
    > <[email protected]> typed: <snip>
    >> Honestly, I thought Dilbert was a work of fiction until I went through that nightmare.
    >
    > Oh dear. I'm sorry to hear about it.
    >
    > My Mum got eaten up and spat out in a non-profit while I was growing up, so it wasn't too
    > surprising a story, sad though it is.

    Many thanks for the sympathy... Unfortunately, I think I'm going to become an evil uncaring
    capitalist money-grabbing bastard from now on (although that kind of disagrees with most of my
    principles), so I'll need to see how I resolve that one.

    I _do_ need to get out of the debt incurred after becoming completely burnt-out, though, and then
    work out where to go from there..

    > I turned into Wally about 5 months into my previous job. Not

    Hmm.. I'm not sure if there's anybody in that office I'd want to be!

    > uncoincidentally that was shortly after the User Interface guru who (e.g.) insisted email was
    > spelt eMail joined (it was a programming job on a highly email-centric product).

    <chortle> Honestly, apparently Scott Adams does base plot ideas on emails such as these!

    "No, it's email, you fool.." /s/eMail/email/ <clicketty-click> etc, etc..

    > Hope you don't have too many bad associations with bikes to enjoy a ride.

    Heck, I love bikes, always have. Unfortunately, the damn blood pressure pills and general lack of
    energy/motivation are making me too damn knackered to do much of it at present. Also getting hassles
    from housing benefit folks (not amusing since I'm officially 'ill') which is meaning I'm having to
    (literally) count the pennies. And I've just spotted I need new brake blocks and cables...

    Well, I'm taking a move over east for a change of scene (a friend is putting me up until I find a
    job/new flat) so here's hoping I get back on the bike properly soon..

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    begin Once upon a time, there was a badly-broken newsreader program...
     
  8. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments] Just zis Guy, you know? wrote in
    uk.rec.cycling: about: Re: please support this new cycling website

    > On Tue, 13 May 2003 20:55:08 +0100, David Marsh <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Honestly, I thought Dilbert was a work of fiction until I went through that nightmare.
    >
    > Another victom of drive-by management? My sympathies. I've always known that Dilbert is a
    > documentary, mind...

    Heh! "Drive-by management"! I *love* it! (Actually, I *really* *really* *really* *f*cking* #hated#
    it, but, sadly, that's a far-too accurate description of what it felt like.. I ain't falling for
    that _ever_ again)

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    begin Once upon a time, there was a badly-broken newsreader program...
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    David Marsh wrote:

    >> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<

    I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products .. It appears to me, though no
    doubt you're not really interested in my opinion, that you're possibly alienating a lot of the
    people, possible newcomers to both cycling and computers, who may be interested in what cycleway is
    doing or is trying to do.

    Just a thought .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1708 Seti work units in 12974 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  10. >>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    >
    > I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..

    Why, do MS products make it impossible to quote sensibly? Why not use something else if that's the
    case? There's no shortage of free or reasonably priced news reading programs out there.

    -dan

    --

    http://www.cliki.net/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
     
  11. Arthur Clune

    Arthur Clune Guest

    David Marsh wrote:

    :>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<

    : I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..

    Really? Does MS software ensure that you can't quote in the normal manner? It didn't last
    time I looked.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful -
    Lord Lester
     
  12. Arthur Clune wrote:
    > Really? Does MS software ensure that you can't quote in the normal manner? It didn't last time
    > I looked.

    Most Microsith stuff encourages top-posting like a Cretinous Foul-Yob fit only for Stoning. This
    does not, of course, prevent one from rearranging things manually, but the Pathologically Idle
    frequently tend not to bother. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/ provides a Thing called Quotefix, for
    Outlook and Outlook Express, which encourages decent behaviour.

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Arthur Clune wrote:

    >> David Marsh wrote:
    >
    >>>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    >
    >> I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..
    >
    > Really? Does MS software ensure that you can't quote in the normal manner? It didn't last time
    > I looked.
    >
    > Arthur

    I use MS software and quote normally .. But then I also use Usenet quite a bit .. ;)

    I was actually referring to the chaps website, which was unworkable using MS IE, but works fine with
    Opera and others .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1708 Seti work units in 12974 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Daniel Barlow wrote:

    >
    >>>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    >>
    >> I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..
    >
    > Why, do MS products make it impossible to quote sensibly? Why not use something else if that's the
    > case? There's no shortage of free or reasonably priced news reading programs out there.

    Was there a problem with how I snipped and quoted ?

    I was actually referring to the chaps website, which was unworkable using MS IE, but works fine with
    Opera and other browsers .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1708 Seti work units in 12974 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Arthur Clune wrote:

    > >> David Marsh wrote:
    > >
    > >>>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    > >
    > >> I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..
    > >
    > > Really? Does MS software ensure that you can't quote in the normal manner? It didn't last time I
    > > looked.
    > >
    > > Arthur
    >
    > I use MS software and quote normally .. But then I also use Usenet quite a bit .. ;)
    >
    > I was actually referring to the chaps website, which was unworkable using MS IE, but works fine
    > with Opera and others .. ;)

    If you were referring to his website why didn't you say that in the original post rather than
    quoting part of his sig which refers to newsposts and thus leading us all to believe that you were
    referring to that sig.

    Colin
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Colin Blackburn wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> Arthur Clune wrote:

    >>>> David Marsh wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    >>>
    >>>> I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..
    >>>
    >>> Really? Does MS software ensure that you can't quote in the normal manner? It didn't last time I
    >>> looked.
    >>>
    >>> Arthur
    >>
    >> I use MS software and quote normally .. But then I also use Usenet quite a bit .. ;)
    >>
    >> I was actually referring to the chaps website, which was unworkable using MS IE, but works fine
    >> with Opera and others .. ;)
    >
    > If you were referring to his website why didn't you say that in the original post rather than
    > quoting part of his sig which refers to newsposts and thus leading us all to believe that you were
    > referring to that sig.

    LOL, that was my fault .. brain fart maybe, and not anything to do with MS products .. ;) If you'd
    read what I posted, I believe I _had_ explained what I meant .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1708 Seti work units in 12974 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  17. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    about: Re: please support this new cycling website

    > David Marsh wrote:
    >
    >>> I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    >
    > I wonder why you have such a problem with people who use MS products ..

    I don't in particular. I have a problem with applications which don't conform to standards, don't
    practice data openness and which aren't bug-fixed. Unfortunately M$ suffer from all three, and
    indeed, have been demonstrated to deliberately practice the first two.

    It's not my fault if Outbreak reacts badly to an innocuous line in my sig. ;-)

    I *really* don't mind people using Word if they want to (I actually quite like its interface,
    particularly its handling of styles), but I do get grumpy if people arrogantly send me a Word file
    rather than an open-standard document.

    > It appears to me, though no doubt you're not really interested in my opinion, that you're possibly
    > alienating a lot of the people, possible newcomers to both cycling and computers, who may be
    > interested in what cycleway is doing or is trying to do.

    I'm always happy to help newbies and point out alternatives if asked. But like most net oldbies, I
    reserve the right not to help people who don't fit in. It's not as if my sig doesn't also offer
    hints as to where help can be found.. I had to learn to fit into the net, when I started, and so,
    others do too.

    On the quoting issue, the evidence shows that most people soon realise that conforming with
    existing community standards is the best way to communicate, and also shows that anybody who
    persists in retard-quoting generally doesn't have anything to say worth listening to, hence I give
    fair warning..

    As for my personal website, it's currently a mess, and in the event that it becomes useful again,
    I'm sure it'll stand or fail on its own merits.

    I take your point that there may be an unfortunate small element of alienation perceived by some,
    but my contributions in usenet will show that in general, I'm a helpful person. Anybody who feels
    that I'm attacking them for using M$ products, having heard the reasons why I act in such a way, is
    somebody that I will be unable to see eye-to-eye with.

    However, since you've debated rationally with me, I'm sure you're not one of them ;-)

    Cheers,

    David.

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interleaved style.<
    begin Once upon a time, there was a badly-broken newsreader program...
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    David Marsh wrote:

    > I take your point that there may be an unfortunate small element of alienation perceived by some,
    > but my contributions in usenet will show that in general, I'm a helpful person. Anybody who feels
    > that I'm attacking them for using M$ products, having heard the reasons why I act in such a way,
    > is somebody that I will be unable to see eye-to-eye with.

    All fair comments. I actually didn't think you were 'attacking' anyone, I was musing on why you post
    and publish as you do.

    > However, since you've debated rationally with me, I'm sure you're not one of them ;-)

    No worries .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1718 Seti work units in 13032 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  19. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > David Marsh wrote:
    >
    > > I take your point that there may be an unfortunate small element of alienation perceived by
    > > some, but my contributions in usenet will show that in general, I'm a helpful person. Anybody
    > > who feels that I'm attacking them for using M$ products, having heard the reasons why I act in
    > > such a way, is somebody that I will be unable to see eye-to-eye with.
    >
    > All fair comments. I actually didn't think you were 'attacking' anyone, I was musing on why you
    > post and publish as you do.

    I notice that David's site (at least the front page) is conformant XHTML
    1.. It seems that Opera and other browsers support that standard while IE doesn't.

    Colin
     
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