'Polish Atkins diet'



X-No-Archive: Yes

Mirek Fidler wrote:
> elgoog wrote:
> > Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >
> >>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical

facilities
> >
> > -
> >
> >>even in Ukraine :)

> >
> >
> > Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review.

Eat
> > less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >

>
> Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of

500
> 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.
>
> Mirek




Kinda OT:

I wish TC had not mentioned pyroghy (and then of course I responded).
The couple dozen in my freezer have been calling my name all day. But I
checked my hips and there's no more room.

....sauerkraut and mushroom, potato and onion, and plums...sigh....

Zee
 
X-No-Archive: Yes

Mirek Fidler wrote:
> elgoog wrote:
> > Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >
> >>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical

facilities
> >
> > -
> >
> >>even in Ukraine :)

> >
> >
> > Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review.

Eat
> > less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >

>
> Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of

500
> 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.
>
> Mirek




Kinda OT:

I wish TC had not mentioned pyroghy (and then of course I responded).
The couple dozen in my freezer have been calling my name all day. But I
checked my hips and there's no more room.

....sauerkraut and mushroom, potato and onion, and plums...sigh....

Zee
 
"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> > elgoog wrote:
> >
> >> Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>> mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>> losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities
> >> -
> >>> even in Ukraine :)
> >>
> >> Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review. Eat
> >> less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >>

> > Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of 500
> > 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.

>
> It was silly enough a few months ago when he said it was 90,000. But now
> it's more than 600,000 - and he says they've all been doing it for more
> than 5 years. It gets more and more bizarre each time.
>
> Bob


As if folks choosing to eat less could possible be bizarre (except
perhaps for a retired chef).

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> > elgoog wrote:
> >
> >> Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>> mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>> losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities
> >> -
> >>> even in Ukraine :)
> >>
> >> Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review. Eat
> >> less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >>

> > Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of 500
> > 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.

>
> It was silly enough a few months ago when he said it was 90,000. But now
> it's more than 600,000 - and he says they've all been doing it for more
> than 5 years. It gets more and more bizarre each time.
>
> Bob


As if folks choosing to eat less could possible be bizarre (except
perhaps for a retired chef).

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> elgoog wrote:
> > Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >
> >>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities

> >
> > -
> >
> >>even in Ukraine :)

> >
> >
> > Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review. Eat
> > less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >

>
> Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of 500
> 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.
>
> Mirek


In truth, it is more than 625,550 people for more than 5 years using the
2PD-OMER Approach with no regain.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> elgoog wrote:
> > Mirek Fidler wrote:
> >
> >>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities

> >
> > -
> >
> >>even in Ukraine :)

> >
> >
> > Maybe the problem is that there really isn't anything to review. Eat
> > less, two pounds. What is there to review?
> >

>
> Well, pesonally, I would like to see some study of Andrew's claim of 500
> 000+ people with 0% drop-out ratio.
>
> Mirek


In truth, it is more than 625,550 people for more than 5 years using the
2PD-OMER Approach with no regain.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> > (3) From conventional news media (newsprint, TV, radio)
> >
> > http://www.heartmdphd.com/press.asp
> >
> > (4) From the many seminars that I give as an Advisor to the Wellness
> > Foundation, Inc.
> >
> > http://www.thewellnessfoundation.com
> >
> >
> >
> >>Milions of obese folks do not even have access to internet.

> >
> >
> > These folks will have access to (2), (3), and (4) enumerated above.

>
> Not quite valid for people living e.g. in Ukraine.


Is it your claim that folks in the Ukraine have no newspapers?

> > In truth, as a general rule, only those with internet access will have
> > access to peer-reviewed medical journals.

>
> Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities -
> even in Ukraine :)


In truth, lifestyle changes like the 2PD-OMER Approach will have to be
implemented in the home with doctor supervision and not in a medical
facility.


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> > (3) From conventional news media (newsprint, TV, radio)
> >
> > http://www.heartmdphd.com/press.asp
> >
> > (4) From the many seminars that I give as an Advisor to the Wellness
> > Foundation, Inc.
> >
> > http://www.thewellnessfoundation.com
> >
> >
> >
> >>Milions of obese folks do not even have access to internet.

> >
> >
> > These folks will have access to (2), (3), and (4) enumerated above.

>
> Not quite valid for people living e.g. in Ukraine.


Is it your claim that folks in the Ukraine have no newspapers?

> > In truth, as a general rule, only those with internet access will have
> > access to peer-reviewed medical journals.

>
> Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities -
> even in Ukraine :)


In truth, lifestyle changes like the 2PD-OMER Approach will have to be
implemented in the home with doctor supervision and not in a medical
facility.


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
It seems to me I heard somewhere that William Wagner wrote in article
<[email protected]>:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Don Kirkman <[email protected]> wrote:


>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that William Wagner wrote in article
>> <[email protected]>:


>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > "TC" <[email protected]> wrote:


>> >> This brings up some good points for discussion.


>> Indeed. See below.


>> >> 3) If high-fat/high-calories do not always cause obesity, then what are
>> >> the medical authorities basing their low-fat/high-carb nutritional
>> >> policies on?


>> > A complex issue. Here is a small tidbit concerning the Nixon white
>> >house. Seems it was deemed a good idea to grow corn. Corn syrup stored
>> >well and tasted sweet and now it is just about everywhere. Thank you
>> >Earl Butz secretary of agriculture for this sweet disaster aka cheap
>> >calories. Farmers were able to use marginal lands, distillers were able
>> >to make cheap whiskey and now type 2 and obesity are common expressions.


>> So let's discuss them. Why do you blame Nixon and Butz? A little
>> history may help remove the scales from your eyes:


>> [Begin]
>> The federal government, which had done little in the 1920s to help
>> farmers, initiated remedial programs during the administration of
>> President Franklin D. Roosevelt. One approach was to reduce the supply
>> of basic farm commodities. The Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933
>> provided payments to farmers in return for agreements to curtail their
>> acreage or their production of wheat, cotton, rice, tobacco, corn hogs,
>> and dairy products. The act was declared unconstitutional in 1936, but
>> in 1938, after several changes in the membership of the U.S. Supreme
>> Court, a second Agricultural Adjustment Act was passed under which
>> production quotas were set as before. Payments were financed from taxes
>> imposed on processors and were based on the parity concept.
>> [End]
>> http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_agriculture.htm


>> IOW, subsidies were initially aimed at helping struggling farmers and
>> commodities markets during the dust bowl years and the concurrent
>> depression. The dirty little secret isn't how or why subsidies were
>> begun but why Congress continues to authorize subsidies when the
>> recipients are Archer-Daniels-Midland and Sun Giant and Bank of America
>> and other conglomerate agribusinesses instead of the original individual
>> farm owner-operators.


>What if these folks are half right? or 25% right?


>Scary.


>http://blogdayafternoon.com/articles/03/06/22/9208021/


>Posted by Jeff (Sunday June 22 2003 @ 08:46PM EDT)


> Recent data indicates that sixty-one percent of Americans carry an
>unhealthy amount of weight, a figure which includes obese people who
>account for twenty-seven percent of the total population. Overweight
>people are characterized by a body mass index of 25 to 29 while obese
>people register 30 or higher.


> Over a period of thirty years the United States has gone from one of
>the healthiest nations on earth to one of its fattest. The journalist
>Greg Cristler investigated this phenomena in his very enjoyable book,
>"Fat Land: How Americans Became The Fattest People On Earth." The author
>leaves no stone unturned in his quest for answers. He charts the rise in
>fry sizes from paper bags to super-sized, the role of loose, baggy
>clothing and hunger satiation, and the effect suppressed peer-pressure
>as a result of political correctness. "Fatty, fatty, two by four" can no
>longer be applied to keep the herd fit and trim.


> Much of what Cristler uncovered was already well documented. Who didn't
>know that fast food portions have increased dramatically over the last
>thirty years? Who didn't realize that video games contributed to
>adolescent inactivity? But if he did uncover a smoking gun it was this:
>corn. That's right, sweet and simple North American maize turned us into
>a nation of cows.


> Richard M. Nixon said he was "not a crook." But before he sent
>operatives to the Watergate Hotel, he faced a crises which threatened to
>undo his presidency. A food shortage gripped the nation in 1972 and
>agriculture secretary Earl "Rusty" Butz responded by freeing farmers
>from the restrictions of government regulation. They could grow what
>they wanted to grow and sell when they wanted to sell. Butz recommended
>corn and soybean. Plant it from "fencerow to fencerow," the fat man
>advised. Farmers responded and production soared.


> As American farmers grew corn out their ears, a Japanese company
>developed a syrup six times sweeter than cane sugar. This new additive
>was derived from corn, high-fructose corn sweetener. It was a food
>industry wind-fall. Its potency meant that sugary food could be produced
>at considerbly lower cost. Its long shelf-life made it an ideal
>preservative. Fructose found its way into breads, rolls, etc., products
>which did not normally contain sugar.


We and many other US families used corn sugar during WW II when sucrose
(cane and beet sugar) were rationed. Corn sugar was unrationed; it
resembled confectioners powdered sugar but it was not as sweet as
sucrose and recipes had to be adjusted to account for that. Commercial
corn sugar at that time.

> Fructose was a gift for manufacturers but a bane for consumers. Unlike
>sucrose or dextrose which broke down prior to reaching the liver,
>fructose arrived at that organ intact. This aspect of fructose became
>known as "metabolic shunting." It triggered fat storage.


> Today fructose in widely available. It is a listed ingrediant in almost
>all pre-packaged or ready-to-eat food items. By the 1980s fructose was a
>major ingrediant in all commercial softdrinks, second only to carbonated
>water. One of the single most important predictors of a child's future
>girth is his current fructose intake. Soda consumption in children was
>studied for a period of nineteen months. One extra softdrink a day gave
>a child a sixty percent greater chance of becoming obese. Each daily
>soda added .18 points to a child's BMI.


>Copyright 2003 Blog Day Afternoon
> All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their
>respective owners.


I have a problem accepting bloggers as the functional equivalent of
journalists, scientists, or other specialists.

A very detailed discussion of sugars includes this tidbit:

[Begin]
Chemical Structure of Sugars

Our bodies can only absorb monosaccharides or single sugars, which are
the smallest sugar units. Most sugars found naturally in foods or added
to foods are disaccharides, or double sugars. During digestion
disaccharides are broken down by digestive enzymes into the individual
monosaccharides which can be absorbed by the body. Starches or complex
carbohydrates are polysaccharides, which contain hundreds of single
sugars. It usually takes longer for the body to break down complex
carbohydrates into the monosaccharides or single sugars for absorption;
however, they will be broken down.

Monosaccharides
Glucose
Fructose
Galactose

Disaccharides
Maltose = Glucose + Glucose
Sucrose = Glucose + Fructose
Lactose = Glucose + Galactose
[End]
http://pearl.agcomm.okstate.edu/fci/health/t-3157.html

This seems to say that sucrose is first converted to glucose + fructose,
which like other simple sugars are then absorbed. Maybe one of our
doctors can comment on whether there is any difference in when or how
the liver processes sucrose and fructose.

This extensive article above, Dietary Sugar and
Alternative Sweeteners, by Janice R. Herman, Ph.D., R.D./L.D., describes
the composition, nutritional value, and digestive process for a large
number of common sugars.
--
Don
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
use. --Galileo Galilei
 
It seems to me I heard somewhere that William Wagner wrote in article
<[email protected]>:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Don Kirkman <[email protected]> wrote:


>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that William Wagner wrote in article
>> <[email protected]>:


>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > "TC" <[email protected]> wrote:


>> >> This brings up some good points for discussion.


>> Indeed. See below.


>> >> 3) If high-fat/high-calories do not always cause obesity, then what are
>> >> the medical authorities basing their low-fat/high-carb nutritional
>> >> policies on?


>> > A complex issue. Here is a small tidbit concerning the Nixon white
>> >house. Seems it was deemed a good idea to grow corn. Corn syrup stored
>> >well and tasted sweet and now it is just about everywhere. Thank you
>> >Earl Butz secretary of agriculture for this sweet disaster aka cheap
>> >calories. Farmers were able to use marginal lands, distillers were able
>> >to make cheap whiskey and now type 2 and obesity are common expressions.


>> So let's discuss them. Why do you blame Nixon and Butz? A little
>> history may help remove the scales from your eyes:


>> [Begin]
>> The federal government, which had done little in the 1920s to help
>> farmers, initiated remedial programs during the administration of
>> President Franklin D. Roosevelt. One approach was to reduce the supply
>> of basic farm commodities. The Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933
>> provided payments to farmers in return for agreements to curtail their
>> acreage or their production of wheat, cotton, rice, tobacco, corn hogs,
>> and dairy products. The act was declared unconstitutional in 1936, but
>> in 1938, after several changes in the membership of the U.S. Supreme
>> Court, a second Agricultural Adjustment Act was passed under which
>> production quotas were set as before. Payments were financed from taxes
>> imposed on processors and were based on the parity concept.
>> [End]
>> http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_agriculture.htm


>> IOW, subsidies were initially aimed at helping struggling farmers and
>> commodities markets during the dust bowl years and the concurrent
>> depression. The dirty little secret isn't how or why subsidies were
>> begun but why Congress continues to authorize subsidies when the
>> recipients are Archer-Daniels-Midland and Sun Giant and Bank of America
>> and other conglomerate agribusinesses instead of the original individual
>> farm owner-operators.


>What if these folks are half right? or 25% right?


>Scary.


>http://blogdayafternoon.com/articles/03/06/22/9208021/


>Posted by Jeff (Sunday June 22 2003 @ 08:46PM EDT)


> Recent data indicates that sixty-one percent of Americans carry an
>unhealthy amount of weight, a figure which includes obese people who
>account for twenty-seven percent of the total population. Overweight
>people are characterized by a body mass index of 25 to 29 while obese
>people register 30 or higher.


> Over a period of thirty years the United States has gone from one of
>the healthiest nations on earth to one of its fattest. The journalist
>Greg Cristler investigated this phenomena in his very enjoyable book,
>"Fat Land: How Americans Became The Fattest People On Earth." The author
>leaves no stone unturned in his quest for answers. He charts the rise in
>fry sizes from paper bags to super-sized, the role of loose, baggy
>clothing and hunger satiation, and the effect suppressed peer-pressure
>as a result of political correctness. "Fatty, fatty, two by four" can no
>longer be applied to keep the herd fit and trim.


> Much of what Cristler uncovered was already well documented. Who didn't
>know that fast food portions have increased dramatically over the last
>thirty years? Who didn't realize that video games contributed to
>adolescent inactivity? But if he did uncover a smoking gun it was this:
>corn. That's right, sweet and simple North American maize turned us into
>a nation of cows.


> Richard M. Nixon said he was "not a crook." But before he sent
>operatives to the Watergate Hotel, he faced a crises which threatened to
>undo his presidency. A food shortage gripped the nation in 1972 and
>agriculture secretary Earl "Rusty" Butz responded by freeing farmers
>from the restrictions of government regulation. They could grow what
>they wanted to grow and sell when they wanted to sell. Butz recommended
>corn and soybean. Plant it from "fencerow to fencerow," the fat man
>advised. Farmers responded and production soared.


> As American farmers grew corn out their ears, a Japanese company
>developed a syrup six times sweeter than cane sugar. This new additive
>was derived from corn, high-fructose corn sweetener. It was a food
>industry wind-fall. Its potency meant that sugary food could be produced
>at considerbly lower cost. Its long shelf-life made it an ideal
>preservative. Fructose found its way into breads, rolls, etc., products
>which did not normally contain sugar.


We and many other US families used corn sugar during WW II when sucrose
(cane and beet sugar) were rationed. Corn sugar was unrationed; it
resembled confectioners powdered sugar but it was not as sweet as
sucrose and recipes had to be adjusted to account for that. Commercial
corn sugar at that time.

> Fructose was a gift for manufacturers but a bane for consumers. Unlike
>sucrose or dextrose which broke down prior to reaching the liver,
>fructose arrived at that organ intact. This aspect of fructose became
>known as "metabolic shunting." It triggered fat storage.


> Today fructose in widely available. It is a listed ingrediant in almost
>all pre-packaged or ready-to-eat food items. By the 1980s fructose was a
>major ingrediant in all commercial softdrinks, second only to carbonated
>water. One of the single most important predictors of a child's future
>girth is his current fructose intake. Soda consumption in children was
>studied for a period of nineteen months. One extra softdrink a day gave
>a child a sixty percent greater chance of becoming obese. Each daily
>soda added .18 points to a child's BMI.


>Copyright 2003 Blog Day Afternoon
> All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their
>respective owners.


I have a problem accepting bloggers as the functional equivalent of
journalists, scientists, or other specialists.

A very detailed discussion of sugars includes this tidbit:

[Begin]
Chemical Structure of Sugars

Our bodies can only absorb monosaccharides or single sugars, which are
the smallest sugar units. Most sugars found naturally in foods or added
to foods are disaccharides, or double sugars. During digestion
disaccharides are broken down by digestive enzymes into the individual
monosaccharides which can be absorbed by the body. Starches or complex
carbohydrates are polysaccharides, which contain hundreds of single
sugars. It usually takes longer for the body to break down complex
carbohydrates into the monosaccharides or single sugars for absorption;
however, they will be broken down.

Monosaccharides
Glucose
Fructose
Galactose

Disaccharides
Maltose = Glucose + Glucose
Sucrose = Glucose + Fructose
Lactose = Glucose + Galactose
[End]
http://pearl.agcomm.okstate.edu/fci/health/t-3157.html

This seems to say that sucrose is first converted to glucose + fructose,
which like other simple sugars are then absorbed. Maybe one of our
doctors can comment on whether there is any difference in when or how
the liver processes sucrose and fructose.

This extensive article above, Dietary Sugar and
Alternative Sweeteners, by Janice R. Herman, Ph.D., R.D./L.D., describes
the composition, nutritional value, and digestive process for a large
number of common sugars.
--
Don
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
use. --Galileo Galilei
 
>>>These folks will have access to (2), (3), and (4) enumerated above.
>>
>>Not quite valid for people living e.g. in Ukraine.

>
>
> Is it your claim that folks in the Ukraine have no newspapers?


Newspapers in Ukraine never mentioned 2PD approach so far. Peer-reviewed
medical journals articles could change that.

>>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
>>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
>>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities -
>>even in Ukraine :)

>
>
> In truth, lifestyle changes like the 2PD-OMER Approach will have to be
> implemented in the home with doctor supervision and not in a medical
> facility.


In that case family doctors would be more likely aware about your unique
approach. Mine was not.

Mirek
 
zee wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> TC wrote:
> > zee wrote:
> > > People who are not eating high fat diets do not necessarily eat

> white
> > > flour, boxed, nukable meals. It is complex carbs from many

> vegetables
> > > fruits and grains which are the healthy diet, in my opinion. It

is
> > not
> > > the meat, or the high fat consumption, which I think takes us

> > quickly
> > > into a u shaped curve.
> > >

> >
> > Fats and proteins do not contribute to obesity as does refined

carbs.
>
> I am not advocating for refined carbs here. But I do not believe this
> statement of yours. Yes, I have read the WAP foundation site, and

Enig,
> who does have good credentials and I do believe her opinions should

be
> given some weight, but is she right? I do not know. All the people

she
> refutes must be given weight too. They are equally well educated.
> Fallon by the way, is a communications consultant not a nutritionit.

I
> also got really turned off by their racist, elitist and Edwardian

idea
> of "natives", native lifestyles and native food customs.
>


I've varied my diet in various fashions at various times over the last
four years. Sometimes calculated and sometimes not.

During certain times of the year like Easter, Xmas and Thanksgiving, I
sometimes find myself eating more refined carbs than I would want
(because of availability of carbs and un-availability of proteins and
fats). Invariably I gain anywhere from 2 or 3 lbs to as much as 5 or 6
lbs. After a week or two of getting back to my normal low-carb way of
eating, I re-gain my old svelte self without difficulty.

On several occassions, like in the last month or so, I've conspired to
eat more fats. Since I do the cooking, I can control that. More butter,
more fatty cuts of meats, more soup stocks from scratch, more eggs,
mayo, etc. I've done this in prior instances for various lengths of
time. In every case where I purposely increased my fat intake, there
has been no concurrent increase in my weight.

My blood lipids are steady in the normal range and I feel very healthy
with plenty of energy. I've had no prescription drugs in the last four
years. None. No colds, no flus, no acne, nothin'.

>
>
> >
> > > We were not meant to eat high fat and high meat protein. Look at

> your
> > > teeth Terry. Look at your shriveled and unnecessary appendix, at

> your
> > > gall bladder and digestive system designed to process bulk and

> fibre.
> > >

> >
> > Actually, I have to completely disagree with you here. And I've

> looked
> > at our teeth and GI systems. We are primarily carnivorous

omnivores.
> > The GI tract is short like other carnivores in order to quickly

pass
> > thru meats. Out GI tract did not evolve to handle large amounts of

> bulk
> > and fibre. We have no gizzard and only one relatively small stomach
> > unlike birds who eat grains and cows with four stomachs.

>
> We are omnivores I agree. By carbs I mean primarily vegetables and
> fruit. But I think it is wrong to dismiss grain. Grain *was* a part

of
> ancient people's food culture, including the Cree and Sioux of the
> Canadian prairie. And those pyroghy eaten by your friends are not the
> culprit: it is the refined flour they make them with, which would not
> have been the case among the early immigrants or the those in old
> Ukraine. It is also all the butter and meat and meat fat, sour cream,
> bacon and pork rind the pryoghy are served with. And as these people
> became more affluent, they began to increase portion, and ate rich
> foods once reserved for special occasions almost daily. In old

Ukraine,
> the peasants did not always have meat, and when they did, it was the
> men and the pregnant women that got it, in small portions. That was
> during slaughter season, and animals were not usually bred more than
> once every couple years. The pyroghy was made with unprocessed flour,
> potato inside, some rendered fat and maybe some sour cream. This

makes
> complete protein.
>


Grain is fine if it is prepared properly. The currently used methods to
process the grains does nothing to help deliver the whole grains
nutrition to our systems. If it is just ground whole grain flour, we
cannot digest it properly to get the nutrition from it and if it is
white flour, we've lost any nutrition that was there. The fresh whole
grain must be cold ground and soaked and/or fermented properly to
retain the nutrition and for us to be able to digest them.

The fats used in the preparing of refined-carb-containing foods like
white-flour pyrogie actually slows down the digestion of the carbs and
mitigates against the blood-glucose spike and the subsequent insulin
spike that triggers fat storage. Fat is the least fattening part of the
dish. In fact it protects you from the weight-gaining effects of
refined carbs. That, I firmly believe, not just from Fallon's work, but
from my own first hand experience.

> Shame on you TC spelling it perogie, coming as you do from the first
> Canadian province to which Ukrainians immigrated in 1886.
>


Around here you can see it spelled perogie, perogy, pyrogie, pyrogy,
pyroghy, etc. The anglicization has really mangled the word. But, a
rose by any other name is still a rose. (and will taste just as good).

>
>
> Not necessarily only meat proteins, but also copious amounts of meat
> > fats from healthy animals.
> >
> > > And as I said at the top of the thread: my city has a sizable

> Polish
> > > population. Really...!

>
> >
> > So has my area of the world. But around here they eat a lot of

> perogies
> > (flour and potatoes), cabbage rolls (white rice), sweets and sodas
> > (sugars) and they've adopted pasta noodles (flour again, but in

> larger
> > amounts). A lot of obesity and disease in these communities too. My
> > ex-girlfriend and her family are a perfect example of what I speak

> of.
> > I saw how they eat as a family when I went out with her, years ago,

> and
> > the last time I saw them, at a funeral of all places, they were all
> > very obese and/or very ill. It was a really sad event for me, even
> > sadder yet than the funeral, to see them in such poor condition.
> >
> > TC

>
> Cabbage rolls were made with kasha in the old country, and here for

the
> first generation. And Manitoba is the still the prime buckwheat

growing
> region of NA. Buckwheat honey....mmmmm!
>
> Zee


The bulk of cabbage rolls around here are mainly white rice with either
bacon or ground beef. But I'm sure that there are plenty of families
that enjoy old-world variations to this day. I make a lazy cabbage roll
with groud beef. Just brown the meat, throw in the chopped-up cabbage,
and add the tomato sauce, water and rice, salt & pepper, and simmer for
a half hour or 45 minutes. Really awesome tasting stuff.

TC
 
Mirek Fidler wrote:
>
> >>>These folks will have access to (2), (3), and (4) enumerated above.
> >>
> >>Not quite valid for people living e.g. in Ukraine.

> >
> >
> > Is it your claim that folks in the Ukraine have no newspapers?

>
> Newspapers in Ukraine never mentioned 2PD approach so far.


They will, God willing.

> Peer-reviewed
> medical journals articles could change that.


Not if God is not willing.

> >>Peer-reviewed medical journals could push your method closer to
> >>mainstream - so that it would be accepted as general method for
> >>losing/maintaining weight and promoted by regular medical facilities -
> >>even in Ukraine :)

> >
> >
> > In truth, lifestyle changes like the 2PD-OMER Approach will have to be
> > implemented in the home with doctor supervision and not in a medical
> > facility.

>
> In that case family doctors would be more likely aware about your unique
> approach. Mine was not.


Yours is now :)


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Jim,
Ever think that the low carb diet less hunger effect is because of less
grain gluten?

These are classic celiac effects. I wonder if studies have been done to
connect.

"Jim Chinnis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm not anti-lowcarbing. It just seemed to me that the amounts of
> weight loss described over the periods described are more
> consistent with a drop in caloric intake than anything else,
> including effects of ketosis. I've tracked my diet in detail for a
> long time now. I eat fewer calories when I take in fewer carbs.
> When I eat a lot of carbs, especially processed carbs, I am
> hungrier and I eat more.
>
> There don't seem to be any good data on this (Polish Atkins).
>
> Jim
>
> "TC" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >
> >We've been told for generations that one needs to eat more carbs and
> >less fat, specifically in order to restrict calories and lose weight.
> >
> >A diet high in fat and low in carbs will be higher in calories. How can
> >it not be? Especially with the amonts of fat being consumed on this
> >diet. They are talking about 250 grams of fat per day, that is 2250
> >calories of fat alone, then add the carbs and the proteins.
> >
> >Remember that there has been a few studies that showed clearly that low
> >carbers can eat up to about around 300 kcals per day more than low-fat
> >dieters and still lose more weight.
> >
> >You can't assume that just because someone is losing weight that they
> >are eating less calories. That connection is now in serious doubt.
> >Calories do matter, but not in the simple, cut-and-dried way that
> >nutritionists like to believe. It is a bit more complex than just
> >calories-in vs calories-out. Quality of food and calories do matter.
> >
> >TC
> >
> >
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> "TC" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >This brings up some good points for discussion.
> >> >
> >> >1) If high-fat/high-calories actually were the root cause of

> >obesity,
> >> >it would not take very long for these people to balloon to huges

> >sizes.
> >> >But it does not happen.
> >> >
> >> >2) If animal source high-fat foods were the root cause of most

> >disease,
> >> >then these people would be the sickest people around, but that does

> >not
> >> >seem to be the case.
> >> >
> >> >3) If high-fat/high-calories do not always cause obesity, then what

> >are
> >> >the medical authorities basing their low-fat/high-carb nutritional
> >> >policies on?
> >> >
> >> >4) If animal source high-fat foods don't always cause disease, then
> >> >what are the medical authorities basing their
> >> >low-fat/low-cholesterol/pill-popping cholesterol and heart disease
> >> >policies on?
> >> >
> >> >I guess we now have the Polish-American paradox in our very midst

> >now.
> >> >Add it to the list of nutritional paradoxes.
> >> >
> >> >This is a great quote:
> >> >
> >> > "I'm sure you've heard their claims that their joint pain is gone

> >and
> >> > diabetes is gone," he says. "And they say it because it's true. You
> >> >can
> >> > apparently get a lot of benefits if you decrease your carbohydrate
> >> > intake, and stop taking in all the white flour and stop taking in

> >all
> >> > the refined foods because you are not stressing your body out all

> >the
> >> > time with all of the insulin spikes and becoming hyperglycemic and
> >> > hypoglycemic."
> >> >
> >> >Sounds familiar, eh?
> >> >
> >> >TC
> >>
> >> I think you are adding in "high-calories." I haven't seen that
> >> mentioned, though people on the "Polish/Optimal" diet may be
> >> consuming more calories. I had assumed they were consuming fewer
> >> if they were losing weight.
> >> --
> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

>
> --
> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Pizza Girl wrote:
>
> Jim,
> Ever think that the low carb diet less hunger effect is because of less
> grain gluten?
>
> These are classic celiac effects. I wonder if studies have been done to
> connect.


Rice does not have gluten and brings back hunger so it is most likely
the ketones that suppresses appetite.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>Pizza Girl wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>> Ever think that the low carb diet less hunger effect is because of less
>> grain gluten?
>>
>> These are classic celiac effects. I wonder if studies have been done to
>> connect.

>
>Rice does not have gluten and brings back hunger so it is most likely
>the ketones that suppresses appetite.


I think there are too many things affected by "low-carb" that
aren't understood. I'm not even sure we are asking the right
questions.

I also suspect this may vary a lot due to genetics.

I am affected by how much high-glycemic-index carbohydrate I eat.
On days when that segment makes up a higher proportion of my
calories, my total calories are higher. That doesn't prove
causality, but I also seem MUCH more successful at keeping weight
off when I watch my carbs than when I watch my fats.

I just don't think the needed research has been done.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Pizza Girl wrote:
> >>
> >> Jim,
> >> Ever think that the low carb diet less hunger effect is because of less
> >> grain gluten?
> >>
> >> These are classic celiac effects. I wonder if studies have been done to
> >> connect.

> >
> >Rice does not have gluten and brings back hunger so it is most likely
> >the ketones that suppresses appetite.

>
> I think there are too many things affected by "low-carb" that
> aren't understood. I'm not even sure we are asking the right
> questions.
>
> I also suspect this may vary a lot due to genetics.
>
> I am affected by how much high-glycemic-index carbohydrate I eat.
> On days when that segment makes up a higher proportion of my
> calories, my total calories are higher. That doesn't prove
> causality, but I also seem MUCH more successful at keeping weight
> off when I watch my carbs than when I watch my fats.
>
> I just don't think the needed research has been done.


Actually there has been much research showing that ketones are
anorexigenic both in animals and in humans (ketogenic diets were once
"popular" for suppressing seizures).

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Pizza Girl wrote:
> >>
> >> Jim,
> >> Ever think that the low carb diet less hunger effect is because of less
> >> grain gluten?
> >>
> >> These are classic celiac effects. I wonder if studies have been done to
> >> connect.

> >
> >Rice does not have gluten and brings back hunger so it is most likely
> >the ketones that suppresses appetite.

>
> I think there are too many things affected by "low-carb" that
> aren't understood. I'm not even sure we are asking the right
> questions.
>
> I also suspect this may vary a lot due to genetics.
>
> I am affected by how much high-glycemic-index carbohydrate I eat.
> On days when that segment makes up a higher proportion of my
> calories, my total calories are higher. That doesn't prove
> causality, but I also seem MUCH more successful at keeping weight
> off when I watch my carbs than when I watch my fats.
>
> I just don't think the needed research has been done.


Actually there has been much research showing that ketones are
anorexigenic both in animals and in humans (ketogenic diets were once
"popular" for suppressing seizures).

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129