Politically Incorrect.

(tokugawa) said:

It looks like quite a few categories of Americans already have socialized medicine. Why not
everybody?

If you want socialized health care move to [censored] Canada. We have to keep America pay-for-care so
all those Canadians have somewhere to go to get well.

Thanks for playing. Please drive through.

--
Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

Investigators in the northern Italian city of Pordenone reported Tuesday that preliminary autopsy
results indicate that cyclist Denis Zanette died of natural causes last Friday.

The 32-year-old Zanette, who collapsed during a visit to his dentist's office, apparently died of a
previously undetected heart ailment, prosecutor Antonella Dragotto reported.

"A cardiac pathology can be hereditary, but can be difficult to diagnose without detailed clinical
testing (and can be) aggravated by a bronchial infection," Dragotto said.

She added the full results of testing would not be known for around six weeks.

Zanette lost consciousness Friday evening while at his dentist's and was quickly transported to the
main hospital in Pordenone, where he was declared dead by attending physicians.

The Italian judiciary called for the autopsy to see if the rider's death was in any way
drug-related as Zanette was one of several riders implicated in a doping investigation centering on
the 2001 Giro d'Italia.

The president of the Italian cycling federation, Giancarlo Ceruti, said following Zanette's death
that his organization would provide 50,000 euros to the racer's family.

Thanks, Ronde Chimp

Top Sirloin <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(tokugawa) said:

It looks like quite a few categories of Americans already have socialized medicine. Why not
everybody?

If you want socialized health care move to [censored] Canada.

I do seem to have touched a sensitive nerve. Tsk, tsk. What's the matter? The truth too hot for you
to handle? WE ALREADY HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! (Medicaid, Medicare, Armed Forces, Veterans,
Prisoners, Merchant Seamen, etc.)

Quoted message said:

We have to keep America pay-for-care so all those Canadians have somewhere to go to get well.

What is your solution for providing care to low income Americans? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!

(tokugawa) said:

Top Sirloin <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(tokugawa) said:

It looks like quite a few categories of Americans already have socialized medicine. Why not
everybody?

If you want socialized health care move to [censored] Canada.

I do seem to have touched a sensitive nerve. Tsk, tsk. What's the matter? The truth too hot for you
to handle? WE ALREADY HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! (Medicaid, Medicare, Armed Forces, Veterans,
Prisoners, Merchant Seamen, etc.)

For a small percentage of the population. Nationalizing 1/3 of the US economy is a great path to
crappy health care and a crappy economy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We have to keep America pay-for-care so all those Canadians have somewhere to go to get well.

What is your solution for providing care to low income Americans? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!

It's called get a job that has insurance, like flipping burgers are McDonalds.

Please find the relevant passage in the US Constituion that says the Federal Government has either
the responsibility or power to provide heathcare to everyone.

--
Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

ronde chimp said:

Investigators in the northern Italian city of Pordenone reported Tuesday that preliminary
autopsy results indicate that cyclist Denis Zanette died of natural causes last Friday.

To add sadness to the tragedy of Zanette's death, it is now time to record the disgust we have
experienced once again in hearing and watching vultures fly high and dive into the mud.

Don't mistake the concern for people about Zantte's premature death as personal insults to the man
or his family.

Zanette was a paid athlete in a sport noted for massive drug abuses. Let's not pretend that the EPO
use in the mid-90's never occurred nor forget that books written about it and police records don't
show that the abuse was very wide spread if not universal. Moreover, he was personally involved in
at least one drug investigation.

Anti-drug forces are always on the lookout for another poster child and the death of Denis was at
least suspicious even if it did turn out to be completely natural.

Zanini and Squinzi have shown concern which should have received more attention. Now the sport has
lost one superb sponsor and Verbruggen has had the unmitigated gall to threaten Zanini.

Just what is necessary to prevent deaths in the peloton and results that can be inspected without
having to always wonder whether or not the winner was wired?

[email hidden] (Tom Kunich) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (tokugawa) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

So you say the problem is with low income (white) people not getting necessary medical care? Well, a
single-payer health care financing system on the Canadian model solves that problem. What is your
solution for providing care to low income (white) people? You don't have one.

By the way, you did not deny that you are a racist.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do seem to have touched a sensitive nerve. Tsk, tsk. What's the matter? The truth too hot for
you to handle? WE ALREADY HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! (Medicaid, Medicare, Armed Forces, Veterans,
Prisoners, Merchant Seamen, etc.)

The Military, Merchant Seaamen and Veterans were in the service of the Nation and not in a
position to earn enough to pay for medical coverage. We as a nation asked them to take lower
wages and in return offered medical care. This is a quid pro quo and not the giveaway program you
imply it is.

Prisoners are prevented from earning a living and a way to make their own way in the world. We as
a society are required to supply care for them if we prevent them from caring for themselves.
Again this is not a giveaway program but a necessary expense from our own actions.

Medicaid and Medicare was originally meant only to supply medical care for those supported by
social security. The expense of this has so far outstripped any predictions that it has been on
the verge of financial collapse for the last decade. As the baby boomers hit social security and
have to rely on Medicare the system will collapse and there will be no possible way to fund it
with a decreasing economy.

Pretending that all you have to do is pass a stupid law to make something viable is just the sort
of problem that has gotten this country into the financial mess it presently is in.

Quoted message said:

What is your solution for providing care to low income Americans? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!

Please explain to me why I should be prevented from saving, money I earn, for my own future while
paying the way for those who won't, don't or can't?

While I make good money when I work and am taxed at the highest rates, I note that the tax
system doesn't care that I may be out of work for a year or more between jobs. My lifetime
earned income may be no more than a school janitor but I'm taxed as a rich person and treated
like trash by Liberals who think that if you take home any more than they do that you are a
crash capitalist [censored].

Despite all your huffing and puffing, you offer no solution. Using your logic, we should eliminate
the current system of Social Security, a program supported by 90% of Americans.

Once more, from the top: we can provide all Americans with quality health care for less money than
what we currently spend. Why is it that you want to deny some Americans adequate health care? Why do
want to deny adequate health care to American CHILDREN?

Kyle Legate said:

Top Sirloin said:

(tokugawa) said:

We already have crappy health care. Canada does not.

Talk to someone in Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why there are so many
Canadians coming over the border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options compared to Americans
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Examples please.

If you're deemed a "low-priority" case because you hurt yourself engaging in a recreational activity
you have no choice but to make an under the table cash deal, if you can afford it.

The Waiting Game

Access to Medical Specialists in Canada By Jamie Moore

Mike Bailey didn’t think much of injuring his knee during a badminton game until months later when
it began affecting his ability to drive. Bailey, of Parksville, B.C., works in the logging industry
on Vancouver Island, often traveling several miles every day between sites to oversee operations. He
got worried when his knee started locking up in the driver’s seat, and a painful roadside stretch
was his only reprieve. Bailey’s family doctor referred him to a specialist, but the wait would be
four and a half months.

That’s not so out of the ordinary in Canada. During 2001 and 2002, the median wait between family
practitioner and specialist for orthopedic surgery was 12.7 weeks, according to The Fraser
Institute’s annual survey Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada. Although waits for
radiation and medical oncology physicians were far shorter, the overall median wait for a specialist
in any field is 7.3 weeks, nearly twice what it was in 1993.

Pain or illness becomes part of daily life for many Canadians while they wait to see a specialist.
In Saskatchewan or British Columbia, chances are better you’ll have a shorter wait time (5.7 and
6.7 weeks, respectively) than in New Brunswick or Alberta (10.2 and 9.3 weeks, respectively), the
survey says.

How do specialists prioritize their patients? And why are the waits so long? Here’s a look at the
problem, why it’s chronic and what physicians and other groups are doing to help remedy the
situation.

The State of the Wait Access to specialists is good for patients with acute medical problems, but
not so good for those with chronic pain, says Dr. Neil Rogers, a general practitioner at The Medical
Arts Centre in Nanaimo, B.C. If it’s an acute life-threatening or urgent illness with lots of
potential complications, I can get someone in right away. If I refer someone who has had chronic
back pain for two years, and they’ve just now come in, then it takes longer because the specialists
are busy seeing someone more acute.

Marrion Barnes of London, Ontario was high on the priority list. Her primary physician found
cancerous cells after running several tests, which catapulted her to the acute category. The
quickest she could see an oncologist, by referral of her physician, was six weeks. Although she’d
hoped to get in sooner, she felt fortunate not to wait as long as other patients she knew. I was one
of those lucky ones who got in pretty quick, she says. When my husband was seeing specialists for
his heart condition, we got shuffled around quite a bit. It’s frustrating.

Where does that leave folks like Bailey on the priority list? He didn’t wait around to find out.
Instead, he called the specialist directly and offered to pay cash for his appointment if he could
get in sooner. It worked. He was scheduled for the following week. In some stroke of suave and luck,
Bailey never had to pay out of his own pocket. The specialist’s office forwarded the bill to
B.C. Medical.

iparentingcanada.commedicalspecialists.htmOpen ↗

(Top Sirloin) said:

On 15 Jan 2003 17:32:11 -0800, [email hidden] (tokugawa) wrote: Talk to someone in
Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why there are so many Canadians coming over the
border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options compared to Americans, and
the savings you tout are merely hidden under the burden of higher taxes.

If you want to be covered under Canadian health care, move to Canada. America has already
vehemently rejected the proposal once.

[censored]. I remember a couple of years ago a government study in Canada showed one of the major
costs to their healthcare system was all the Americans illegally receiving free treatment in
Canadian hospitals. I believe (but this is a while ago so my numbers might be fuzzy) that the number
was arounfd 7-8% of the medical budget.

Also, Canadians have a longer life expectancy rate and lower infant mortality rate than we do - so
to say their healthcare system is worse than ours just isn't born out by the facts.

Thanks, Ronde Chimp

Kyle Legate said:

Maybe I'm just dense, but what does wait time have to do with the number of options available?

Ok, two words: "medical necessity". That's all Canadian health care covers.

If you want treatment for something that unfairly or not is deemed to not be a medical necessity,
you pay cash unless you're fortunate to still have insurance.

I should've said "fewer _covered_ options".

--
Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's
exercise."
- John F. Kennedy, 1962

Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

Don't mistake the concern for people about Zanette's premature death as personal insults to the
man or his family.

I do not, in fact. I was referring to the premature, untimely, unsensitive and unfair outcry that
was heard so aloud, prominently from quarters so close to my hometown from people I happen to know
personally.

People react funny to deaths. Especially people who suspect that what they are doing might be
dangerous and that the death may be proof of
it.

It is always best not to take words people say at times like that too seriously.

ronde chimp said:

Investigators in the northern Italian city of Pordenone reported Tuesday that preliminary autopsy
results indicate that cyclist Denis Zanette died of natural causes last Friday.

To add sadness to the tragedy of Zanette's death, it is now time to record the disgust we have
experienced once again in hearing and watching vultures fly high and dive into the mud.

Sergio Pisa

ronde chimp said:

Investigators in the northern Italian city of Pordenone reported Tuesday that preliminary autopsy
results indicate that cyclist Denis Zanette died of natural causes last Friday.

The 32-year-old Zanette, who collapsed during a visit to his dentist's office, apparently died of a
previously undetected heart ailment, prosecutor Antonella Dragotto reported.

"A cardiac pathology can be hereditary, but can be difficult to diagnose without detailed clinical
testing (and can be) aggravated by a bronchial infection," Dragotto said.

BTW, It seems that both his father and grandfather died in the same way.

Top Sirloin <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(tokugawa) said:

Top Sirloin <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 14 Jan 2003 12:04:05 -0800, [email hidden] (tokugawa) wrote:

>It looks like quite a few categories of Americans already have socialized medicine. Why not
>everybody?

If you want socialized health care move to [censored] Canada.

I do seem to have touched a sensitive nerve. Tsk, tsk. What's the matter? The truth too hot for
you to handle? WE ALREADY HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! (Medicaid, Medicare, Armed Forces, Veterans,
Prisoners, Merchant Seamen, etc.)

For a small percentage of the population. Nationalizing 1/3 of the US economy is a great path to
crappy health care

We already have crappy health care. Canada does not. We pay almost double per capita than what
Canada pays for health care, and Canada beats the U.S. in almost every measurable category of health
care statistics: life expectancy, infant mortality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We have to keep America pay-for-care so all those Canadians have somewhere to go to get well.

What is your solution for providing care to low income Americans? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!

It's called get a job that has insurance, like flipping burgers are McDonalds.

If the unemployment rate ever approached zero, the Federal Reserve would raise interest rates to
slow down the economy until unemployment reached a "reasonable" level. We can't have inflation,
now, can we?

Quoted message said:

Please find the relevant passage in the US Constituion that says the Federal Government has either
the responsibility or power to provide heathcare to everyone.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice,
insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure
the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution
for the United States of America."

It's real easy to find, it's the very beginning. "To promote the general Welfare" is the idea behind
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans benefits, etc. Are you in favor of abolishing these
programs? There is no specific passage in the constitution regarding, say, "Social Security."

Health care cost so much in the U.S. because, in part, of wasteful duplication between public and
private plans. There are 3,000 different private health insurance entities, each with its own set of
rules and regulations. Doctors are spending more and more of their time filling out insurance
paperwork and less time providing health care.

Private health insurance plans have made some business people extremely rich, usually by figuring
out ways to deny or delay health care to consumers. These people will spend millions of dollars to
keep the current "crappy" system of health care financing.

In Canada, doctors who initally opposed Single-Payer are now strong supporters, because of the
reduced paperwork, and the certainty of being paid on time.

By the way, you still have not proposed a realistic method of providing adequate health care to the
40 million Americans without insurance. After all, there are only so many McDonalds out there. Maybe
they could get jobs at K-Mart. Opps! K-Mart has just announced plans to fire tens of thousands of
employees!

Tom Kunich said:

Don't mistake the concern for people about Zanette's premature death as personal insults to the
man or his family.

I do not, in fact. I was referring to the premature, untimely, unsensitive and unfair outcry that
was heard so aloud, prominently from quarters so close to my hometown from people I happen to know
personally.

Sergio Pisa

ronde chimp said:

[censored]. I remember a couple of years ago a government study in Canada showed one of the major
costs to their healthcare system was all the Americans illegally receiving free treatment in
Canadian hospitals. I believe (but this is a while ago so my numbers might be fuzzy) that the
number was arounfd 7-8% of the medical budget.

If managed care is so economically viable, why is TennCare $258 million in the hole, even after $800
million in cash infusions over the past two years AND having to means test and drop coverage for
some people.

gomemphis.com0,1426,MCA 1497 1676721,00.htmlOpen ↗

TennCare is just a smaller version of the system that was proposed during Clinton's first term. The
"savings" of managed care are just hidden under the burden of higher taxes or it flounders into
bankruptcy like TennCare.

Quoted message said:

Also, Canadians have a longer life expectancy rate and lower infant mortality rate than we do - so
to say their healthcare system is worse than ours just isn't born out by the facts.

HINT: it's a different country.

Don't you think that if we reduced the population density of the US and reduced illegal immigration
our life expectancy and infant mortality would improve?

I'm not posting about this anymore in rbr. We can take it to email, misc.fitness.weights,
talk.commie.healthcare, alt.binaries.pictures.[censored] or anywhere else where it's remotely on-topic.

--
Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's
exercise."
- John F. Kennedy, 1962

It is just different.

You can cite data the flows both ways, and give examples of people crossing the border both ways.
Whoever lives near the border seems to have the most options and it seems a good idea to acknowledge
the inter- dependencies of the Canadian and US healthcare systems.

"ronde chimp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Top Sirloin) said:

On 15 Jan 2003 17:32:11 -0800, [email hidden] (tokugawa)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Talk to someone in Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are so many Canadians coming over the border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options

compared

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to Americans, and the savings you tout are merely hidden under the burden

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

higher taxes.

If you want to be covered under Canadian health care, move to Canada.

America

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has already vehemently rejected the proposal once.

[censored]. I remember a couple of years ago a government study in Canada showed one of the major
costs to their healthcare system was all the Americans illegally receiving free treatment in
Canadian hospitals. I believe (but this is a while ago so my numbers might be fuzzy) that the
number was arounfd 7-8% of the medical budget.

Also, Canadians have a longer life expectancy rate and lower infant mortality rate than we do - so
to say their healthcare system is worse than ours just isn't born out by the facts.

Thanks, Ronde Chimp

ronde chimp <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Top Sirloin) said:

On 15 Jan 2003 17:32:11 -0800, [email hidden] (tokugawa) wrote: Talk to someone in
Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why there are so many Canadians coming over the
border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options comparedto Americans, and
the savings you tout are merely hidden under the burden of higher taxes.

If you want to be covered under Canadian health care, move to Canada. America has already
vehemently rejected the proposal once.

[censored]. I remember a couple of years ago a government study in Canada showed one of the major
costs to their healthcare system was all the Americans illegally receiving free treatment in
Canadian hospitals. I believe (but this is a while ago so my numbers might be fuzzy) that the
number was arounfd 7-8% of the medical budget.

Then you won't have any problems citing that perfectly rediculous claim. Here are some of the stuff
I've presented many times before but which you want to ignore:

By William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia. He is a palliative care physician
and senior fellow in health policy studies at the Fraser Institute.

(speaking about Canada's health care system) "Canadians over the age of 65 use health care at four
times the rate of those under 65 and thus are more exposed to the deficiencies. Moreover, the
treatments elders need most often are the ones where the worst shortages exist. According to the
Fraser Institute's annual survey of hospital waiting lists, the median patient waits 70% longer than
is medically reasonable, in the view of their physicians. Waits for cardiac surgery are 145% longer
than medically reasonable, 90% longer for orthopedics (hips and knees) and 75% longer for
ophthalmologic (cataracts and lens replacement) surgery." (Note the term "medically reasonable" - do
you understand what that means?)

From the von Mises Institute:

"This popular superficial view of Canada's health care system as the national "sacred trust" and the
envy of the rest of the world does not reveal how poorly informed people really are about how health
care is funded and delivered. In fact, if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about the
economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about their
cherished right to "free" health care."

In case you think that the Canadian government doesn't know it what about this statement by a
Canadian MP?

"Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today 200,000 Canadians are still on waiting
lines in hospitals. But if they are wealthy or desperate they could jump the queue and fly down to
the United States for treatment. They could pay cash for health care. If that is not two tier, if
that is not American style health care, I do not know what is."

Quoted message said:

Also, Canadians have a longer life expectancy rate and lower infant mortality rate than we do - so
to say their healthcare system is worse than ours just isn't born out by the facts.

The reasons that the Canadians have longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality have been
discussed before. It is a glitch in the statistics due in large part to the non-diverse population.
This situation is presently changing rapidly as the population ages and as immigration is beginning
to make the ethnic makeup of the country more diverse.

Still and all, the very idea of comparing life expectancy of a homogenous well educated small
population with a culturally and ethnically widely diverse large population such as the USA with
everything from mid-Manhanttan Yuppies to black Alabama sharecroppers, east LA hispanics and
Apalachian hill dwellers is pretty preposterous.

But reason doesn't seem to have much to do with your statements so perhaps we might as well give up
and just let the government commit the population of this country to the boondoggle of the 21st
century by installing a medical rationing program like Canada.

(tokugawa) said:

We already have crappy health care. Canada does not.

Talk to someone in Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why there are so many Canadians
coming over the border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options compared to Americans, and
the savings you tout are merely hidden under the burden of higher taxes.

If you want to be covered under Canadian health care, move to Canada. America has already vehemently
rejected the proposal once.

There is no good solution for those uncovered. The government is not everyone's mother.

Does that mean we couldn't develop a security blanket system to cover those people? Of course we
could. However a mass single-payer government administrated national health care system is not
the answer.

Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their
week's exercise."
- John F. Kennedy, 1962

tokugawa said:

Quoted message said:

If the unemployment rate ever approached zero, the Federal Reserve would raise interest rates to
slow down the economy until unemployment reached a "reasonable" level.

It depends upon how "monetarist" the philisophy of the Fed is.

Quoted message said:

We can't have inflation, now, can we?

If you're a debtor, you can only hope.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please find the relevant passage in the US Constituion that says the Federal Government has
either the responsibility or power to provide heathcare to everyone.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice,
insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and
secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America."

It's real easy to find, it's the very beginning. "To promote the general Welfare" is the idea
behind Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans benefits, etc.

So you would say that the interpretation is what you say it is. Some people think that to "promote
the general Welfare" involves not being too socialistic. But I guess you're right if you say you're
right. What a crock.

Deb Gray is a right wing nutbar member, somewhat akin to a Canadian version of Lynden Larouche.
Maybe you should take some time and read Roy Romanow's royal commission report on the Canadian
healthcare system.

hc-sc.gc.caromanow e.pdfOpen ↗

As for your assertion that Canada's demographics are the reason they have a higher life expectancy
rate and lower infant mortality rate, I'd suggest you also come up with an excuse for every other
developed country, since they consistently beat us on both accounts (check any WHO report for the
past decade).

Our healthcare system is a wreck. As an EMS worker I see day in and day out people who have let
minor infections become life threatening because they couldn't afford a doctor. Our government
provides us with police, fire, army, sanitation, etc. "to protect us", but for some reason when we
ask for healthcare, all of a sudden it's not the government's job to look after us. Curious. The
reality is that if we made sure everybody had healthcare, our economy would be better off.

Sure, the Canadian system's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than ours. There's no
reason we shouldn't consider some way of ensuring every American can see a doctor when they need -
and I fail to see how suggesting such a thing is such a horrible idea.

Anyway, I hate these non-RBR relevant items posted to RBR. Let's take this to an appropriate
newsgroup of your choice and we can continue this there.

Thanks, Ronde Chimp

(Tom Kunich) said:

ronde chimp <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Top Sirloin) said:

On 15 Jan 2003 17:32:11 -0800, [email hidden] (tokugawa) wrote: Talk to someone in
Washington or New York who runs an MRI. Ask them why there are so many Canadians coming over the
border to pay cash for one.

Canadians wait longer for treatment, have much fewer treatment options comparedto Americans, and
the savings you tout are merely hidden under the burden of higher taxes.

If you want to be covered under Canadian health care, move to Canada. America has already
vehemently rejected the proposal once.

[censored]. I remember a couple of years ago a government study in Canada showed one of the major
costs to their healthcare system was all the Americans illegally receiving free treatment in
Canadian hospitals. I believe (but this is a while ago so my numbers might be fuzzy) that the
number was arounfd 7-8% of the medical budget.

Then you won't have any problems citing that perfectly rediculous claim. Here are some of the stuff
I've presented many times before but which you want to ignore:

By William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia. He is a palliative care physician
and senior fellow in health policy studies at the Fraser Institute.

(speaking about Canada's health care system) "Canadians over the age of 65 use health care at four
times the rate of those under 65 and thus are more exposed to the deficiencies. Moreover, the
treatments elders need most often are the ones where the worst shortages exist. According to the
Fraser Institute's annual survey of hospital waiting lists, the median patient waits 70% longer
than is medically reasonable, in the view of their physicians. Waits for cardiac surgery are 145%
longer than medically reasonable, 90% longer for orthopedics (hips and knees) and 75% longer for
ophthalmologic (cataracts and lens replacement) surgery." (Note the term "medically reasonable" -
do you understand what that means?)

From the von Mises Institute:

"This popular superficial view of Canada's health care system as the national "sacred trust" and
the envy of the rest of the world does not reveal how poorly informed people really are about how
health care is funded and delivered. In fact, if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about
the economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about
their cherished right to "free" health care."

In case you think that the Canadian government doesn't know it what about this statement by a
Canadian MP?

"Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, today 200,000 Canadians are still on
waiting lines in hospitals. But if they are wealthy or desperate they could jump the queue and fly
down to the United States for treatment. They could pay cash for health care. If that is not two
tier, if that is not American style health care, I do not know what is."

Quoted message said:

Also, Canadians have a longer life expectancy rate and lower infant mortality rate than we do -
so to say their healthcare system is worse than ours just isn't born out by the facts.

The reasons that the Canadians have longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality have been
discussed before. It is a glitch in the statistics due in large part to the non-diverse population.
This situation is presently changing rapidly as the population ages and as immigration is beginning
to make the ethnic makeup of the country more diverse.

Still and all, the very idea of comparing life expectancy of a homogenous well educated small
population with a culturally and ethnically widely diverse large population such as the USA with
everything from mid-Manhanttan Yuppies to black Alabama sharecroppers, east LA hispanics and
Apalachian hill dwellers is pretty preposterous.

But reason doesn't seem to have much to do with your statements so perhaps we might as well give up
and just let the government commit the population of this country to the boondoggle of the 21st
century by installing a medical rationing program like Canada.