Poll: Are cyclists a menace on the road?

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Peter, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. Bikesoiler

    Bikesoiler New Member

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    I'll see your call of Bullshit/Buulshit & raise it.

    As StuartL & Euan have stated, take part of the left lane & cars give you more room. It may sound counter intuitive but my experience backs it up. There is a certain section of Plenty Rd (Northern suburbs, Melbourne) that bears this out perfectly.
    Every time I ride out to Kinglake this happens. If I don't ride in the left wheel track, roughly 1/3 out into the left lane, I get cars, trucks etc squeezing past me by inches. It feels like the wrong thing to do but once in the lane there is less stress as you get given more space.
     


  2. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Andrew Priest <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:51:55 GMT, "Plodder"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Not
    > >once, but TWICE I came close to being cleaned up by people dipping into the
    > >bike lane to get around cars turning right off South St.

    >
    > "Dropping" into the bike lane to pass on the left, a right turning
    > vehicle is legal. Of course the driver should ensure it is safe to do
    > so which is you point I believe you are making.


    And they have to indicate properly that they are doing it.
     
  3. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Theo Bekkers <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Peter wrote:
    >
    > > We have just had a road upgraded in Mackay and part of it has bike
    > > lanes 30cm wide (with lovely little bicycle symbols to match).

    >
    > You have very narrow bicycles, and people, in Mackay.
    >
    > Theo


    That might make a great little protest action. Seeking Mackay's
    skinniest cyclist to see if they can fit in the bicycle lane. Might send
    off a media release tomorrow.

    P
     
  4. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Patrick Turner <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Neither myself or any government transport department cares a
    > hoot about your prissy feelings!
    >
    > Get real, you ARE a second class user of the road
    > if you are on a bike. Your'e shit, OK.
    > This is exactly how many motorists know you when they see you, just
    > vermin, garbage.
    > So please get used to motorists hating you.
    > And stop being a fool for insisting you get treated special.


    Mate, that's the spirit! The would have made you a life member of "the
    Germans won't harm us, so it's best we go quietly" club during the
    Holocaust.

    P
     
  5. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2007-08-14, Peter (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > Patrick Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Neither myself or any government transport department cares a
    >> hoot about your prissy feelings!
    >>
    >> Get real, you ARE a second class user of the road
    >> if you are on a bike. Your'e shit, OK.
    >> This is exactly how many motorists know you when they see you, just
    >> vermin, garbage.
    >> So please get used to motorists hating you.
    >> And stop being a fool for insisting you get treated special.


    Wow dude. You sure you didn't take too many "products" back when
    racing? Hold on, your writing style is awfully similar to previous
    people I had killfiled.

    > Mate, that's the spirit! The would have made you a life member of "the
    > Germans won't harm us, so it's best we go quietly" club during the
    > Holocaust.


    That's the problem with technology. Imagine if you killfiled the
    Germans, and didn't even notice them coming after you?

    --
    TimC
    Warning: No foo present. Your life may be in grave danger.
     
  6. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    No, it pays to keep as far left as is safe to do so. VicRoads agrees with me,

    ``. Ride so that you can be seen

    To further assist motorists to see you, you should ride in a prominent position on the road. Riding in a prominent position involves riding at a distance of approximately 1 metre from parked cars. You should also obey traffic signals and stop signs.''

    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/BicyclesPedestrians/CyclingSafety/CyclistVisibility.htm

    My experience says different.

    So everyone you knew rode like you did and you saw lots of people having accidents involving cars.

    Not a great endorsement is it?


    The facts contradict you. In countries which have higher per capita cycling the roads are safer, not just for cyclists but for all road users.

    The Netherlands health bill is about a third of Australia's, I believe quite a few of them ride a bike.

    Now if you're going to respond, do so nicely. Don't call me a liar, don't dismiss everything I say as bull excrement. it's quite OK to have a differing opinion, it's not OK to insult people.

    If you can't back up your opinions with facts, it's OK to say that its your opinion, even if it flies in the face of established facts.
     
  7. Theo Bekkers

    Theo Bekkers Guest

    EuanB wrote:


    > The Netherlands health bill is about a third of Australia's, I believe
    > quite a few of them ride a bike.


    Ride bikes surely. They have more than one bike in the Netherlands. :)
    I got my first bike there when I was 4. That was before trainer-wheels were
    invented.

    Theo
     
  8. Resound

    Resound Guest

    >> I have not felt "at risk" from passing cars in a long time since I moved
    >> further out. If I'm in the gutter, I get passed with very little room to
    >> spare;

    >
    > What utter bullshit!
    >
    > if I'm further out, the margin between me and cars is much
    >> greater.

    >
    > More buulshit!


    Actually that reflects my experience over three years of commuting, mostly
    on arterial roads. I can recall precisely two instances of being passed
    closely enough that it made me reflexively swear from fright and on at least
    one of those occasions I was hiding in the gutter for some reason. I
    remember the place but not why I was in the gutter. Iwas very new to cycling
    at the time though. It's been more than a year since I got a serious fright
    from someone passing me too closely. Look at advice published on vehicular
    cycling by anyone with a good amount of experience and they'll also tell you
    not to hide in the gutter.

    And here's some reading in case you feel the need to cry bullshit again.

    http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/book_reviews.html
    http://www.nscycle.org.uk/help.html
    http://www.bikenorthwoods.com/Extras/bike_safety/index.html
    http://kingcommute.live.poptech.coop/viewall.htm

    That was a *very* quick Google and I could provied more but it would have
    simply been thumping the expired equine.
     
  9. Donga

    Donga Guest

    On Aug 14, 5:35 pm, [email protected] (Peter) wrote:
    > Theo Bekkers <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > Peter wrote:

    >
    > > > We have just had a road upgraded in Mackay and part of it has bike
    > > > lanes 30cm wide (with lovely little bicycle symbols to match).

    >
    > > You have very narrow bicycles, and people, in Mackay.

    >
    > > Theo

    >
    > That might make a great little protest action. Seeking Mackay's
    > skinniest cyclist to see if they can fit in the bicycle lane. Might send
    > off a media release tomorrow.
    >
    > P


    Somewhere on the web, there's a funny pic of a guy lying on one of
    these symbols as if he's riding it. The caption says something like:
    "Gee Dad, thanks very much for the new bike for my birthday, but I
    have grown a bit".
     
  10. Stuart Lamble wrote:
    >
    > On 2007-08-14, Patrick Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > Stuart Lamble wrote:
    > >> I
    > >> have not felt "at risk" from passing cars in a long time since I moved
    > >> further out. If I'm in the gutter, I get passed with very little room to
    > >> spare;

    > >
    > > What utter bullshit!

    >
    > Now you're being an utter tosser. I'm talking about my personal
    > experience here, and this is what *HAS HAPPENED TO ME*.
    >
    > If you're not prepared to stop and engage your brain, I have no interest
    > in what you have to say.
    >
    > *PLONK*



    Please feel welcome to plonk me.

    I never expect everyone to agree with me, and have many bullet holes
    to prove that as a messenger, I have been shot many times.

    I never bother to plonk anyone at all.
    I never have, and I never will, and when I think someone
    spouts BS, I will always say so giving reasons,
    rather than just angrilly blocking offending posts.

    I speak to the group, and not to just one individual.

    Have fun on your bike while you can.

    Watch out for the cars, they tend to run you down
    if you ride along too close to them.

    Patrick Turner.



    a
    >
    > --
    > My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
    > the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".
     
  11. Theo Bekkers wrote:
    >
    > Patrick Turner wrote:
    > > Donga wrote:

    >
    > >> Patrick I agree with you about more infrastructure, but want to make
    > >> one point: cyclists aren't the reason why some motorists hate
    > >> cyclists, bigotry is.

    >
    > > Bigatory, or whatever you call it

    >
    > Patrick, Donga spelled it correctly for you.


    Biggertary? whatever, who gives a huge profound R's A about spelingg?
    >
    > > Motorists all suffer the sin of impatience.
    > > People are often supremely immature once behind a steering wheel.

    >
    > > Everyone likes to hate them, and think of them as
    > > arholes and revenue raisers, and they are, but they slow traffic.

    >
    > What exactly is the advantage of slower traffic to anyone?


    Slower traffic damages its self less.

    Car drivers have MORE time to react to any given situation
    if their speed is lower.

    Kinetic Energy , KE is proportional to velocity squared,
    so someone travelling at 28kph does twice the damage
    to persons or vehicles in a prang as at 20kph.

    I recall the bad old days when Police were at a loss to control
    speeding in the ACT.
    On Northbourne Ave, the busiest road near the town centre
    ppl roared along up to 100kph regularly.
    Not any more, the white vans suddenly lurk at random locations,
    and I pass them daily, and nightly, and everyone HAS slowed down
    to below 60kph, knowing well that if you speed, you WILL be caught
    sooner rather than later.

    The camera vans never stay longer than about 30minutes at the one place,
    and ppl never know where they will be next, and for
    speedy ppl, they are deadly. They all pay huge fines and get points.


    > > Hooray!!!! cars are being slowed down, and us cyclists are safer.

    >
    > You'd sooner the cars drove slower and have more frustrated drivers in them?


    My bloody oath I would.

    Hat's off to the Police.

    The slower driver can get as angry as he likes. I don't care.
    If he is angry that he or she cannot break the law any more, and needs
    to speed,
    he/she deserves no mercy, and the recipe that is acceptable for
    speedy types is to depart on journeys earlier to get their on time,
    and with less risk to everyone.

    I might add that 35 years ago when I was a silly young and often angry
    young man, I probably paid enough traffic fines to
    purchase a Police motorcycle they used to persue me.

    Now I happily drive much slower, and the need for
    exhilarating motoring speed has ZERO appeal.

    I like cycling as fast as i can though, and
    60kph down a hill on a pushie is about as exhilarating to me at age 60
    as 100mph was back in 1968 on a Harley.


    >
    > > Give us more cycle lanes.

    >
    > Patrick, I'm still trying to figure out whether you're a semi-clever troll,
    > or a complete idiot. The latter is winning.


    Everyone who disagrees vehemently with me thinks
    I am a troll, thinks negative, and plonks me, whatever, I don't care,
    I have the right to say what I think to be true,
    and in advance will say that I will agree to disagree with you
    if you can't handle debate.

    I had a nice long ride of 85k today, averaged about 25kph,
    right across town and back, with only 10k
    on roads without cycle lanes.
    But these are relatively quite roads which were made 1.5 lanes wide to
    begin with.
    When they first built the city of Canberra, they designed in wide
    streets.

    Hooray for wide streets!

    About 20k was done on roads with cycle lanes, and I felt quite safe.
    Much safer than without them.

    The rest of the trip was done on the separate cycle path system of
    mainly tar sealed
    2m wide path with a white centre line.

    It was a good ride apart from the severe headwind and the 9C temp,
    and there wasn't one single even slightly scary incident,
    either because of any fault of anyone else, or any misjudgement of my
    own.

    If I rode close to the single white line dividing motorists
    from the bikes, sooner or later I would be hit by a truck or trailer
    etc.
    I have OFTEN seen motorists go past with their vehicle
    side right on the white line.
    Trucks are the worst offenders.

    It always was far more dangerous without the bike lanes.

    I may not speak for all cyclists, but I want MORE CYCLE LANES.

    I am greedy as buggery, and
    I WANT MORE CYCLE PATHS WELL AWAY FROM ROADS.

    Unfortunately, anyone capable of implementing
    improvements I could dream about isn't reading this NG
    and isn't talking to us.
    And I have lived long enough to witness pollytishans
    regularly ignore polls and petitions.

    Hope you have a good ride tomorrow...

    Patrick Turner


    >
    > Theo
     
  12. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

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    If that's a indeed a fact, you could be technically dead & haven't actually noticed it yet.

    Sure you're not a zombie? Or just a troll on autopilot?
     
  13. Peter wrote:
    >
    > Patrick Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Neither myself or any government transport department cares a
    > > hoot about your prissy feelings!
    > >
    > > Get real, you ARE a second class user of the road
    > > if you are on a bike. Your'e shit, OK.
    > > This is exactly how many motorists know you when they see you, just
    > > vermin, garbage.
    > > So please get used to motorists hating you.
    > > And stop being a fool for insisting you get treated special.

    >
    > Mate, that's the spirit! The would have made you a life member of "the
    > Germans won't harm us, so it's best we go quietly" club during the
    > Holocaust.


    You don't know me well, but I try to take shit from nobody,
    and I would have been a supremely surly partisan
    fighting against Hitler if I'd had to.

    But as a cyclist whose life is constantly threatened daily
    by road behaviours, and while living in a Democracy,
    I'd be silly to try to shoot back.
    I'd be jailed for starters.

    I know my place on the bicycle, and
    I am aware that best survival procedure is to
    cause the least possible anxiety in minds of motorists,
    so I keep away from them as far as possible.
    After cycling maybe 105,000 kms I am still alive to tell my story.

    Not even a scratch due some negative "interface" with a car, truck, bus,
    etc.

    I also rode about 200 races on public roads, and no dramas.

    In Oz, about 1,700ppl get killed on roads each year.

    Does anyone really worry about this as much as the silly
    worry about terrorists?

    I don't recommend cycling the roads of many foreign countries though.
    For example, in Iran, some 50,000 people die anually,
    and it proves Allah can be asked for guidance and protection,
    but can never be relied upon to give either.

    In Lance Armstrong's book about his fight with cancer
    he tells of being knocked off his bike on Texas roads.

    If ever you fell off in the US, you wanna make sure
    you have medical insurance.

    If the motorists don't getcha, the doctors will.

    Patrick Turner.



    >
    > P
     
  14. Patrick Turner wrote:
    >
    > Theo Bekkers wrote:
    >> Patrick Turner wrote:
    >>> Donga wrote:
    >>>> Patrick I agree with you about more infrastructure, but want to make
    >>>> one point: cyclists aren't the reason why some motorists hate
    >>>> cyclists, bigotry is.
    >>> Bigatory, or whatever you call it

    >> Patrick, Donga spelled it correctly for you.

    >
    > Biggertary? whatever, who gives a huge profound R's A about spelingg?
    >>> Motorists all suffer the sin of impatience.
    >>> People are often supremely immature once behind a steering wheel.
    >>> Everyone likes to hate them, and think of them as
    >>> arholes and revenue raisers, and they are, but they slow traffic.

    >> What exactly is the advantage of slower traffic to anyone?

    >
    > Slower traffic damages its self less.
    >
    > Car drivers have MORE time to react to any given situation
    > if their speed is lower.
    >
    > Kinetic Energy , KE is proportional to velocity squared,
    > so someone travelling at 28kph does twice the damage
    > to persons or vehicles in a prang as at 20kph.
    >
    > I recall the bad old days when Police were at a loss to control
    > speeding in the ACT.
    > On Northbourne Ave, the busiest road near the town centre
    > ppl roared along up to 100kph regularly.
    > Not any more, the white vans suddenly lurk at random locations,
    > and I pass them daily, and nightly, and everyone HAS slowed down
    > to below 60kph, knowing well that if you speed, you WILL be caught
    > sooner rather than later.
    >
    > The camera vans never stay longer than about 30minutes at the one place,
    > and ppl never know where they will be next, and for
    > speedy ppl, they are deadly. They all pay huge fines and get points.
    >
    >
    >>> Hooray!!!! cars are being slowed down, and us cyclists are safer.

    >> You'd sooner the cars drove slower and have more frustrated drivers in them?

    >
    > My bloody oath I would.
    >
    > Hat's off to the Police.
    >
    > The slower driver can get as angry as he likes. I don't care.
    > If he is angry that he or she cannot break the law any more, and needs
    > to speed,
    > he/she deserves no mercy, and the recipe that is acceptable for
    > speedy types is to depart on journeys earlier to get their on time,
    > and with less risk to everyone.
    >
    > I might add that 35 years ago when I was a silly young and often angry
    > young man, I probably paid enough traffic fines to
    > purchase a Police motorcycle they used to persue me.
    >
    > Now I happily drive much slower, and the need for
    > exhilarating motoring speed has ZERO appeal.
    >
    > I like cycling as fast as i can though, and
    > 60kph down a hill on a pushie is about as exhilarating to me at age 60
    > as 100mph was back in 1968 on a Harley.
    >
    >
    >>> Give us more cycle lanes.

    >> Patrick, I'm still trying to figure out whether you're a semi-clever troll,
    >> or a complete idiot. The latter is winning.

    >
    > Everyone who disagrees vehemently with me thinks
    > I am a troll, thinks negative, and plonks me, whatever, I don't care,
    > I have the right to say what I think to be true,
    > and in advance will say that I will agree to disagree with you
    > if you can't handle debate.
    >
    > I had a nice long ride of 85k today, averaged about 25kph,
    > right across town and back, with only 10k
    > on roads without cycle lanes.
    > But these are relatively quite roads which were made 1.5 lanes wide to
    > begin with.
    > When they first built the city of Canberra, they designed in wide
    > streets.
    >
    > Hooray for wide streets!
    >
    > About 20k was done on roads with cycle lanes, and I felt quite safe.
    > Much safer than without them.
    >
    > The rest of the trip was done on the separate cycle path system of
    > mainly tar sealed
    > 2m wide path with a white centre line.
    >
    > It was a good ride apart from the severe headwind and the 9C temp,
    > and there wasn't one single even slightly scary incident,
    > either because of any fault of anyone else, or any misjudgement of my
    > own.
    >
    > If I rode close to the single white line dividing motorists
    > from the bikes, sooner or later I would be hit by a truck or trailer
    > etc.
    > I have OFTEN seen motorists go past with their vehicle
    > side right on the white line.
    > Trucks are the worst offenders.
    >
    > It always was far more dangerous without the bike lanes.
    >
    > I may not speak for all cyclists, but I want MORE CYCLE LANES.
    >
    > I am greedy as buggery, and
    > I WANT MORE CYCLE PATHS WELL AWAY FROM ROADS.
    >
    > Unfortunately, anyone capable of implementing
    > improvements I could dream about isn't reading this NG
    > and isn't talking to us.
    > And I have lived long enough to witness pollytishans
    > regularly ignore polls and petitions.
    >
    > Hope you have a good ride tomorrow...
    >
    > Patrick Turner
    >
    >
    >> Theo


    Hi Patrick

    I think your posts are OK but a bit too long. My eyes glaze over if a
    post is longer than three or four paragraphs.
    Keep up the good work and don't forget that we're all friends on here,
    except for one or two kooks.

    Dorfus
     
  15. Aeek

    Aeek Guest

    On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:53:24 GMT, Patrick Turner
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Plodder wrote:


    >> Interesting. However I'm uncomfortable with the idea that separating
    >> cyclists and motor vehicles is necessarily a good thing.

    >
    >Well perhaps you may not have experienced a before and after
    >effect with cycle lanes.
    >I have, and the change and I am 100% sure the lanes have made a vast
    >improvement to my safety, and I now ain't part of the reason
    >why so many motorists hate cyclists.


    I agree. Before the lanes I got abused 3 times a month. Its gotten
    less and less over the 2? years, now I can't remember the last time.
    I generally ride near the right edge so staying far left isn't it.

    In the ACT context of an off road shared path network, including all
    footpaths, on road bike lanes are a statement that cyclists belong on
    the roads. Inclusion, not segregation.

    As for Northbourne Avenue, before the lanes were redone, the left lane
    was only a few cm wider than a bus! Took me years of occasional riding
    to twig to this unbelievable fact. Why? Its the National Capital's
    entry road of ceremony, 3 lanes a side, with a massive grass median.
    The central(2nd) lane was extra wide for matters of pomp and state.
    Traffic engineering didn't come into it.
     
  16. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:14:23 +1000, EuanB wrote:

    > Road infrastructure is a small part of the big picture, attitude is
    > much more important.


    France has a serious network of motorways onm which cyclist don't ride.
    On the rest cyclists are accorded respect, as they should be.

    dewatf.
     
  17. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:08:50 +1000, EuanB wrote:

    > I can only speak for Melbourne, I wouldn't put much credence in that
    > poll. Driver attitudes on the road have improved out of sight over the
    > last two or three years here.
    >
    > It is an unusual event if I have a negative interaction with another
    > road user these days, not the norm.


    Most motorists in Sydney are pretty good, especially on local or secondary
    roads. It, however, only takes one idiot in one to two tons of metal to
    kill you.

    dewatf.
     
  18. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Most countries don't permit cyclists on motorways and/or freeways, France is no different to Australia, the UK or any number of other countries I could mention.
     
  19. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

    Joined:
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    0

    Agreed, however the overall risk on a bicycle is still pretty small in real terms. Less risky than being a pedestrian as it happens.
     
  20. beerwolf

    beerwolf Guest

    EuanB <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:


    > Agreed, however the overall risk on a bicycle is still pretty small in
    > real terms. Less risky than being a pedestrian as it happens.


    I don't believe this last point. While the raw figures might show a higher
    rate of pedestrian deaths per '000 of population than for cyclists, they do
    not show that a very large number of those dead pedestrians were drunk,
    young children, or elderly and /or infirm. I don't (usually) fall into any
    of those categories, and I feel safer as a pedestrian than on my bike.

    That is not to say my perceptions of relative safety stop me riding. The
    risk of death or injury is still pretty low, but the stats do not take into
    account the different characteristics of the two populations. As in many
    other situations, it can be a fallacy to base personal decisions purely on
    aggregate statistics

    JMO.

    --
    beerwolf
     
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