Poll: Are cyclists a menace on the road?

[Peter]

Peter <[email protected]> wrote:

> VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN
>
> Courier Mail Poll:
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

Latest results:
Yes 67% (2133 votes)
No 32% (1021 votes)

I think everyone is going to have to do a few extra clicks today.

P

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> I suspect I am talking to people mainly a half or a third of my age,
> and most young people like short one liners.
> I find it all a bit sharp and short and I ask, is that all?

Patrick, you may find that some of the 'one-liner' people are older than
you. Some people also think that using more words than necessary is just
dribble.

> I don't know anyone of my age who enjoys cycling like I do.
> Most guys of 60 I do know are rather stuffed.

You need to get out more.

Theo

 

[Donga]

On Aug 16, 7:10 am, [email protected] (Peter) wrote:
> Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
> > VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN
>
> > Courier Mail Poll:
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33
>
> Latest results:
> Yes 67% (2133 votes)
> No 32% (1021 votes)
>
> I think everyone is going to have to do a few extra clicks today.
>
> P

Meh, let the retarded motor-loving poll-stuffers have it - I'm off to
ride my bike. A check of aus.car-morons would probably show they have
nothing else to do when they've finished tightening their heads
(nearly as much fun as polishing spokes). Notable fact is that the
number of "Nos" approximates the original sample size.

Donga

 

[Patrick Turner]

cfsmtb wrote:
>
> John Henderson Wrote:
> >
> >
> > Practicality is often arguable, and hopefully common sense would
> > prevail. But rule 247 does give "real legal standing" in any
> > case.
>
> I'll concur with that, but unfortunately as we realise, common sense
> doesn't seem to prevail legally when push comes to shove. Or subject to
> legal interpretations.
>
> Have a look at the notes on 2nd page, apologies as the text is locked.
>
> VicRoads Cycle Notes: Bicycle Lanes, May 1999
> http://tinyurl.com/ypbmvs
>
> "Bicycle lanes should be installed at the start of the bicycle lane and
> immediately after each intersecting road or street".
>
> Hence a major problem with bike lanes - not adequately dealing with
> intersections and potential conflict. Bit like please de-materialise
> here and re-materialise over there, i.e.: the turn to Hoddle from Heidy
> Rd. Green lane markings are making the sightlines clearer for drivers &
> cyclists but there's still a long way to go in some traffic engineers
> minds.
>
> VicRoads Cycle Notes: Collect the whole set
> http://tinyurl.com/26gzyb
>
> --
> cfsmtb

Here in the ACT we have what many cysclists must feel are "terror zones"
where
there are 1M wide green strips of cycle lanes allowing the cyclist to
proceed
across a road with a vehicle lane exit towards the left.
On some of these exits, the green lane "out in the middle of knowhere"
as it does seem to many cyclists,
the cyclist is most vulnerable to a motorist mistaking distance
judgement and trying to
turn left without sufficent room to the cyclist's left,
or leaving it too late, and cutting the cyclist off, or just getting
muddled, and
running over the cyclist, ot simply not seeing the cyclist, and
also running over him/her.

When the Govt first introduced the cycle lanes and green zones
sceptics and cynics say should have been red, so you wouldn't notice the
blood.
Anyway, the public seemed to get used to the green zones quickly, and
probably the
green zone lanes were the result of practices used in other countries
most likely in Europe.
I would say that were I to search the reasoning behind the layout of
such green lanes that
the Traffic Dept here has simply followed world practices which
countless other
governments have found to be quite safe for cyclists, ie, deaths via
green lanes
are so minimal that its unlikely they couls be deemed unsafe, and
unlikely to lead to litigation.

I have ridden in such lanes often, and it saves me having to turn left
with motorists,
stop, then wait for the clear, and then proceed, an action some cyclists
get wrong,
and causing even more disruption than the green zone lanes would.

After using these green lanes often, I have felt always nervous, and had
a look around behind me anyway
to see who is coming, and maybe the motorists will notice me looking at
them as they aim thier
steel tonnage in my general proximity.

Not all the cycle lanes proceeding through left turning traffic lanes
are painted green.
Some are just two white lines with bicycle symbols, and in a
particularly busy intersection near
where I live I have sometimes had to really sprint for it if there is
busy traffic and a bus involved.
Lessor mortals could easily feel utterly intimidated and insecure.
Cars often leave it almost too late to turn left just in front of me,
or slow up too close behind me before turning left.

For those who do feel such cycle lane "green conveniences" are
unacceptable terror zones, then
don't use them and do the business of stopping, waiting till its clear
before proceeding.

Life cannot be lived without risk, and every cyclist proves this to
himself each minute
spent sharing roads with motorists, who are a menace to cyclists.



Patrick Turner.

 

[Patrick Turner]

John Henderson wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > I KNOW my posts are WAY too long for some people.
> >
> > I prefer to have a darn good read when i read anything,
> > and I like lots of substance in a post, and like to see
> > some craft applied to writing of posts.
> > I've only been in Usernet news groups for 7 years
> > since I got a PC for the first time aged 53.
>
> Well, I'm a lot younger than you. I won't be 60 until next
> June!

Congratulations, you have made it past all those years....
>
> I left school at 14, and worked in "the motor trade" until I
> started uni a couple of years after Gough made it free (and
> paid me to go). I did Computing I in 1978, and ended up as a
> programmer from my uni days until I retired, except for a spell
> as a research assistant for the then Federal Office of Road
> Safety in the early 80's.

I always thought computer experts were rare ppl indeed back then.
>
> I don't enjoy writing though, so most of my posts are short.
>
> And I've lived in Canberra since 1983.

I came in 73.

I happily left Sydney, and Canberra seemed like a big country town.

good simple pubs, enough sheilas, plenty of work, and
a road system that was the best in the nation.
Peak hour traffic lasted 15 minutes along onlt about 2km of road.

Instead of taking an hour to ride to work on a BMW R75/5 at 7am in
Sydney,
and 1.5 hours at 5pm, I took 10 mins each way here, and had an extra
2 hours of leasure time per day.

Its all slower and more crowded now in Canberra, but sheesh, still a
darn sight
better than Sydney has become.

>
> Maybe it's partly our age, but I tend to agree with you about
> keeping out of traffic lanes as much as possible. I've ridden
> bikes since childhood, and did lots of long-distance bike
> touring in my 20's and 30's.

When we were in our twenties, the national road toll in 1972 was about
3,000 deaths,
although only 25% of present car miles were travelled, well, so it
seems,
and in fact the roads were not a safe place to be.
It was mainly due to the presence of drunks, and a poor general standard
of driving.

I briefly rode a bicycle before age 18, then took cycling up
seriously at 36 for 6 years, then had a rest until last year.

I went to quite a few funerals of friends who crashed while
riding motorcycles. Two would have lived OK had they worn crash helmets.

>
> I've seen far too many bad things in my time to be comfortable
> about being seen and respected by motorists. Some don't even
> see buses and trucks right in front of them! I've seen the
> results with my own eyes rather too often. I was once a CAMS
> competition rally driver too. That's many decades behind me
> now, but I do reckon I know how to drive. I do lots of driving
> as well as cycling, but it's been over 38 years since I was
> booked or involved in an accident of any sort.
>
> So I enjoy Canberra's shared paths very much. I'm always uneasy
> (more stressed) when riding on roads. And the further out in
> the traffic I am, the less secure I feel generally.

I could say exactly the same things.
>
> On roads, I do take the point that sometimes it's much safer to
> take the entire traffic lane. That's something I've done
> intuitively for as long as I remember. Where there's plenty of
> room though, I'll keep as far as practicable to the left.

Yes, there are brief moments where hogging a whole lane is the best.

Cycling around in the ANU where the streets are sometimes narrow, and
with strip islands, it pays to hog the lane to stop 'em squeezin past.
But you're not slowing them down much anyway, and the ANU is a place
filled with generally bike friendly, sober, and intelligent people.


>
> I simply don't believe those who say that riding on roads is
> safer than riding on bike paths. Serious injuries are very
> rare indeed where there's no motorised vehicle involved.

Indeed serious injuries are almost unknown on bike paths here.

But I have had two unavoidable head on collisions on cycle paths
with other cyclists. Once was where I swung down into
a road underpass and coming the other way were 3 schoolboys 3 abreast.
I braked, then CRASH. I had some very surly words, and the young
bastards
were quite arrogant.
Lucky I had a helmet on.
Next time was when I rounded a corner, and a chinese girl coming the
other way
veered into me, obviously forgetting she should have kept to the left,
because in china its the opposite.
As I swung off the path avoid her, she swung into me.
BANG, and our heads crashed hard together. Lucky I was wearing a helemt,
and it saved
BOTH our brains because she wasn't wearing one. That was back in 1989,
during the
Tianamen Square massacre where chinese tanks rolled over dissident
students wanting democracy.
She was a bit dazed after the crash; I was OK, so I spent 30 minutes
gently helping her to recover
while looking for more serious signs of any injury or concussion.
I straighened out her twisted handle bars so she could ride and although
she
could hardly speak a single word of english, I got her to understand we
keep left in this country,
but without rousing on her.
Eventually she regained her composure, and was able to continue.


> A big part of the problem in this country is driver education
> and attitude. But I don't expect much improvment in my own
> lifetime. These things take considerable time, and younger
> readers might have more reason to be optimistic. Good on them
> for trying to change the world.

Each generation of road users has the same lessons to learn as all
previous generations.
And each generation of newbies has the same humanness as the previous,
and
we all wish attitudes will change, but they basically don't, and won't,
unless legislation forces a change. Laws about motoring
are far tougher now than in 1967, about when I began on the roads.
So while we now have a far larger number of road kilos per head per
annum,
the deaths per road kilo have plummeted, mainly because the drunks have
been
somewhat limited, and because of seatbelts.
However, seatbelts havn't done anything to reduce cyclist fatalities.
But keeping motorists sober sure has.

Educating motorists to be tolerant has to be done with a big stick,
and backed with big fines if you don't.
Nobody could stop ppl driving while drunk until a law could be
forced which could be policed, and the random breath test must have
saved thousands
of lives by now.
Getting people to stop speeding has been a major problem for police,
but to my mind Canberra's roving mobile camera vans have been an
outstanding success.
I recall that before the vans, Limestone Ave and Northbourne Ave, and
many other roads were
race tracks even in peak hour. The public thought they'd get away with
it, and largely they did,
but not now, they all crawl slowly along at 59kph where its says 60,
and on the Tuggeranong parkway I often find myself passing many
motorists
when I drive at 95kph. I recall ppl often doing 130 before the vans.

I'd rather have the minor inconveniences of ppl walking dogs and clouds
of kids
on school excursions etc etc, occasionally cluttering cycle paths than
to always
battle it out trying to survive on the roads.

And I don't much like the noise of busy traffic.

The wind noise is bad enough on a bike.

Patrick Turner.



>
> John

 

[cfsmtb]

Latest results:
Yes 67% (2133 votes)
No 32% (1021 votes)

I think everyone is going to have to do a few extra clicks today.

Think I need to update the screenshot on the blog. Think they've forgotten about it? Set and forget?

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > I suspect I am talking to people mainly a half or a third of my age,
> > and most young people like short one liners.
> > I find it all a bit sharp and short and I ask, is that all?
>
> Patrick, you may find that some of the 'one-liner' people are older than
> you. Some people also think that using more words than necessary is just
> dribble.
>
> > I don't know anyone of my age who enjoys cycling like I do.
> > Most guys of 60 I do know are rather stuffed.
>
> You need to get out more.

I couldn't afford getting out more than i do.

I say my age group is basically rather stuffed.

They are mainly unfit, very overweight, and riddled with problems.
For many people, turning sixty is a pathetic stage of their lives.

However, I have many friends of my own age, and despite all that's wrong
with them,
they are a fine bunch of people.

I just never find myself riding along with someone my own age.

There appear to be a tiny percentage of 60+ year olds i see out riding.
Maybe its partially because I will go
for a 90k ride way across town in the middle of the day,
when ppl are at work.
I work at home in my own small business, and I am able to take a
wednesday off on the bike
just like some ppl can play golf.
I like doing about 120k a week at least, and many say they havn't time.
But even on my weekend rides, I dunno where most of my age group lurks;
probably
loungeing around at home.

I don't stop to ask anyone they age; I just ride, and I ride for
fitness,
which means I ride past nearly everyone I see going in my direction.
I think last month I passed maybe once, or twice, by anyone.
These days in our cold winter, maybe i pass one guy a day in 3 hours.
I see maybe 20 coming the other way, and maybe 1 is my age,
and riding real slow, and at a pace which would have me freezing up.
Occasionally, someone will try to hang on behind me, but rarely
are they over 30. A young guy tried yesterday, on a mountain bike.
He managed 2 km and gave up. Very few ppl will hang on behind,
then take a turn in front as a matter of course.
Certainly nobody my age has this last year, and never any woman of any
age, ever has.

One summer day I slowly caught up with a young bloke with local club
jersey,
and passed him rapidly. He didn't like that, and stormed past me in
revenge,
nose in the air, and no G'day from him. I'd caught him napping,
and of course he could have easily ridden further, faster, and for
longer
than i could.

In the months now just ahead of us, the triathletes will begin to train
for their spring/summer
racing season, and then there will be many more ppl out on the roads and
cycle paths.
That is when I will be passed by the furious and the swift, and I leave
'em to it,
quite happy to muddle along on me own.

Patrick Turner.




>
> Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> John Henderson wrote:

>> I left school at 14, and worked in "the motor trade" until I
>> started uni a couple of years after Gough made it free (and
>> paid me to go). I did Computing I in 1978, and ended up as a
>> programmer from my uni days until I retired, except for a spell
>> as a research assistant for the then Federal Office of Road
>> Safety in the early 80's.

> I always thought computer experts were rare ppl indeed back then.

Nah, they were everywhere by then. I was installing main-frames back in 68.

Theo

 

[Peter]

cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:

> Peter Wrote:
> >
> > Latest results:
> > Yes 67% (2133 votes)
> > No 32% (1021 votes)
> >
> > I think everyone is going to have to do a few extra clicks today.
>
> Think I need to update the screenshot on the blog. Think they've
> forgotten about it? Set and forget?

turn cookies off in browser, do 1000k, suddenly neck-and-neck again.
most manipulable poll ever.

i'll send you a screen shot.

 

[Aeek]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:07:09 GMT, Patrick Turner
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Here in the ACT we have what many cysclists must feel are "terror zones"
>where
>there are 1M wide green strips of cycle lanes allowing the cyclist to
>proceed
>across a road with a vehicle lane exit towards the left.

I love them! Mostly they are where I would have been signalling right
(hint, I'm NOT turning left) and moving further right. Now I can do
that by keeping right as I approach and cross.

A byproduct is drivers seem to be better at signalling left.

I am scared for the timid cyclists who hug the left away from the
nasty cars and snap right into the green lane at the last instant.
They are setting themselves up to be hit and it really won't be the
drivers fault.

 

[Donga]

On Aug 16, 6:32 pm, [email protected] (Peter) wrote:
> cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Peter Wrote:
>
> > > Latest results:
> > > Yes 67% (2133 votes)
> > > No 32% (1021 votes)
>
> > > I think everyone is going to have to do a few extra clicks today.
>
> > Think I need to update the screenshot on the blog. Think they've
> > forgotten about it? Set and forget?
>
> turn cookies off in browser, do 1000k, suddenly neck-and-neck again.
> most manipulable poll ever.
>
> i'll send you a screen shot.

ROTFLMAO
+10
Someone's got RSI.

 

[Aeek]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:32:01 +1000, [email protected]
(Peter) wrote:

>cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:

>turn cookies off in browser, do 1000k, suddenly neck-and-neck again.
>most manipulable poll ever.

it's nice how the vote button remains from before, one less step!

 

[Patrick Turner]

Aeek wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:07:09 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Here in the ACT we have what many cysclists must feel are "terror zones"
> >where
> >there are 1M wide green strips of cycle lanes allowing the cyclist to
> >proceed
> >across a road with a vehicle lane exit towards the left.
>
> I love them! Mostly they are where I would have been signalling right
> (hint, I'm NOT turning left) and moving further right. Now I can do
> that by keeping right as I approach and cross.
>
> A byproduct is drivers seem to be better at signalling left.
>
> I am scared for the timid cyclists who hug the left away from the
> nasty cars and snap right into the green lane at the last instant.
> They are setting themselves up to be hit and it really won't be the
> drivers fault.

Yes, I'd agree they would be setting themselves up.
But not if they stopped, and proceded after taking a good look at what's
coming.
99% of cyclists don't have rear vision mirrors, and looking around while
pedaling,
and keeping balance, is quite beyond some ppl.
There old neck bones don't allow it anyway sometimes...

So without a rear vision mirror, you never know quite when you are about
to leave the planet.

Cyclists should pray all the time while on the bike, and beg God's
forgiveness each hour.
It'd have to be far more effective than being a Catholic,
which means one can drive over several cyclists by wednesday, go to
confession
on friday, say 2,000 hail marys for penance on saturday, and drop dead
after mass on sunday,
then arrive forgiven into heaven on monday.

Unfortunately, the God Of Cycling lost a battle near Limbo
with the Devil Of Motoring in about 1895 while riding a penny farthing
in the presence of some rather quirky early cars.

He's been in wheelchair cloud ever since, and the Main God
doesn't listen to him any more, one reason being that the
very big sub-god, the God Of Oil, intervened.


Patrick Turner.

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Aeek wrote:

>> I am scared for the timid cyclists who hug the left away from the
>> nasty cars and snap right into the green lane at the last instant.
>> They are setting themselves up to be hit and it really won't be the
>> drivers fault.

Hehe. You're quite good Aeek

> Yes, I'd agree they would be setting themselves up.
> But not if they stopped, and proceded after taking a good look at
> what's coming.
> 99% of cyclists don't have rear vision mirrors, and looking around
> while pedaling,
> and keeping balance, is quite beyond some ppl.
> There old neck bones don't allow it anyway sometimes...

I thought you were youngandfit@sixty Pat. I'm older than you and have no
problem turning my neck. You should do something useful in your spare time
like me. I'm a lieutenant in the local volunteer fire brigade and get to
drive 12 tonne 4WDs.

> So without a rear vision mirror, you never know quite when you are
> about to leave the planet.

They cost all of $5, go get one.

> Cyclists should pray all the time while on the bike, and beg God's
> forgiveness each hour.
> It'd have to be far more effective than being a Catholic,
> which means one can drive over several cyclists by wednesday, go to
> confession
> on friday, say 2,000 hail marys for penance on saturday, and drop dead
> after mass on sunday,
> then arrive forgiven into heaven on monday.

2000 Hail Marys? Thats a bit steep for a couple of cyclists. One Rosary per
cyclists ought to be enough. Better being a Protestant Patrick. When you run
over a cyclist next you can say it was God's will.

Theo

 

[Donga]

On Aug 17, 8:27 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:

> 2000 Hail Marys? Thats a bit steep for a couple of cyclists. One Rosary per
> cyclists ought to be enough. Better being a Protestant Patrick. When you run
> over a cyclist next you can say it was God's will.
>
> Theo

Neither is required - the magistrate will give you absolution, with a
little help from your legal team.

Donga

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > Aeek wrote:
>
> >> I am scared for the timid cyclists who hug the left away from the
> >> nasty cars and snap right into the green lane at the last instant.
> >> They are setting themselves up to be hit and it really won't be the
> >> drivers fault.
>
> Hehe. You're quite good Aeek
>
> > Yes, I'd agree they would be setting themselves up.
> > But not if they stopped, and proceded after taking a good look at
> > what's coming.
> > 99% of cyclists don't have rear vision mirrors, and looking around
> > while pedaling,
> > and keeping balance, is quite beyond some ppl.
> > There old neck bones don't allow it anyway sometimes...
>
> I thought you were youngandfit@sixty Pat. I'm older than you and have no
> problem turning my neck. You should do something useful in your spare time
> like me. I'm a lieutenant in the local volunteer fire brigade and get to
> drive 12 tonne 4WDs.

Hehe. You're quite bad Theo

You have assumed I was talking abouy my neck. But I wasn't. And I have
a friend of
66 who can't turn his neck much due to the effects of having had a
horific car accident 40 years ago.
I don't have any spare time as you so erroneously assume.
I am still in the workforce, and not retired, and you're implying.
OK, I do a couple of rides. Driving a 12 tonne big red toy fire engine
wouldn't keep me fit; I NEED the rides to stay fit, and prevent what's
happend to most
of my friends, fatness, unfitness, diabetes, etc.
Nature gave me an attrocious pair of knee joints.
3 years ago the surgeons said I would definately have to have both
joints replaced.
I was forced off cycling because of knee pain in 1993, and the building
work I had been doing
for 30 years with a broken cruciate lig didn't help.
I did have a cartlidge trimming op 3 years ago, and have managed to get
back on the bike
last year with the attitude that it would stuff my knees completely, or
improve them
and get rid of 20kG of excess fat, improve heart lung function, and stop
the rot.
My knees have got better, i have lost the weight, and have resting HR of
52.
But I still can't run, and loathe standing around for long, and long
walks.
That of course makes me pretty antisocial but I
don't miss coctail parties and BS.

Its good to see someone does volunteer work.

I work in my own business repairing electronics and building new
sound systems, and unfortunately, while many people treasure the service
I offer, they don't want to pay me like they did when I was a builder,
and when I switched from building to electronics as a second career,
I was forced to accept wages that are at least 7 times lower per hour
than building work gave me.
So effectively, I am volunteering my services to everyone
for next to nothing.
So I may spend several weeks building a really good quality amplifier
and pair of
speakers, and the labour I put in is equal to doing a minor house
extension.
People might pay 40 grand for the several weeks of building work,
but only maybe 6 grand for a top class stereo.
Some woll just fo to BingLee for their stereo, and
I never get to work for those folks, and they always
want stuff repaired for almost nothing, because although they want
their own wages to be AWE of $800, ie, $20 per hour for 40 hours,
they only want to pay me $5 max. The chinese imports made with labour
costing 20c per hour has spoiled our values.
So effectively, the chinese are also volunteering to maintain
the standard of living of those on AWE in western nations.

I could go on to make a few more points in this debate,
but I will be accused of having too long a post.....



>
> > So without a rear vision mirror, you never know quite when you are
> > about to leave the planet.
>
> They cost all of $5, go get one.

I have ears. I've ridden 110,000 kms on bicycles without a mirror.
I recal I once tried one, and found it not worth the bother.
I look around instead.
One of those helmet mounyed types, small, might be the best, not sure.

>
> > Cyclists should pray all the time while on the bike, and beg God's
> > forgiveness each hour.
> > It'd have to be far more effective than being a Catholic,
> > which means one can drive over several cyclists by wednesday, go to
> > confession
> > on friday, say 2,000 hail marys for penance on saturday, and drop dead
> > after mass on sunday,
> > then arrive forgiven into heaven on monday.
>
> 2000 Hail Marys? Thats a bit steep for a couple of cyclists. One Rosary per
> cyclists ought to be enough. Better being a Protestant Patrick. When you run
> over a cyclist next you can say it was God's will.

Of course you could be a Muslim, and then its definately the Will of
Allah!

And a Budhist of course would say it was kharma. Of course it F&^%$#@
was.

THe Hindu of course might say that the rapid expiration of
a cyclist could be right in some circumstances, but not in others,
and depending on caste. Don't cycle in India.
Use a bullock cart instead.

And in China, where they have fogotten to be religious or moral,
you'd bribe a party official if who you ran over was another party
official.

There's around a billion bicycles in china and the man in the car has
some grandly breathtaking opportunities.

Patrick Turner.


>
> Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> I thought you were youngandfit@sixty Pat. I'm older than you and
>> have no problem turning my neck. You should do something useful in
>> your spare time like me. I'm a lieutenant in the local volunteer
>> fire brigade and get to drive 12 tonne 4WDs.
>
> Hehe. You're quite bad Theo
>
> You have assumed I was talking abouy my neck. But I wasn't. And I
> have a friend of
> 66 who can't turn his neck much due to the effects of having had a
> horific car accident 40 years ago.

It didn't read that way. Stopping in traffic to look around to see if it's
safe to cross over a turning lane sounds quite dangerous to me.

> I don't have any spare time as you so erroneously assume.
> I am still in the workforce, and not retired, and you're implying.
> OK, I do a couple of rides. Driving a 12 tonne big red toy fire engine
> wouldn't keep me fit;

You'd probably be surprised how fit you need to be to drive the big toy.
Just climbing in and out of them, something you do on a fireground every two
minutes, tests your fitness.

> Its good to see someone does volunteer work.

You don't?

> I work in my own business repairing electronics and building new
> sound systems, and unfortunately, while many people treasure the
> service I offer, they don't want to pay me like they did when I was a
> builder, and when I switched from building to electronics as a second
> career,
> I was forced to accept wages that are at least 7 times lower per hour
> than building work gave me.

> People might pay 40 grand for the several weeks of building work,
> but only maybe 6 grand for a top class stereo.

I had a mate who pioneered building transistor Class A amps many years ago.
Sounds to me like builders are overpaid. You expect $40K for a few weeks
work. Try explaining that to some of the Uni students on this list. You
think $6K for a few weeks is poor pay?

>> They cost all of $5, go get one.
>
> I have ears. I've ridden 110,000 kms on bicycles without a mirror.
> I recal I once tried one, and found it not worth the bother.
> I look around instead.

Then don't whine about not everybody having one.

>> 2000 Hail Marys? Thats a bit steep for a couple of cyclists. One
>> Rosary per cyclists ought to be enough. Better being a Protestant
>> Patrick. When you run over a cyclist next you can say it was God's
>> will.

> Of course you could be a Muslim, and then its definately the Will of
> Allah!

Last time I looked Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, all had the same
God. The God of Moses and Abraham.

There is only one God, It is a universal delusion.

Theo