Poll: Hating America

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by bioguy, Apr 18, 2004.

  1. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Concur Limerickman...I have enjoyed the debate and look forward to other topics in which we could agree...

    I'm just sorry that perhaps our antics distracted others and prevented them from voicing their 'opinions" on the original question....Of course, there are those that would say that WE don't really want to hear the truth.... BUT I'm not starting anything... just wish we could see more dialogue in response to the original question....

    Have a great weekend!

    Z
     


  2. Fixey

    Fixey New Member

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    Hey Zapper
    Firstly, I believe the tone of this thread has improved alot... cheers for the friendly response
    secondly, the communist party here died along time ago, I have never read any of there doctrone.
    Thirdly, as I stated I dont believe there has been a communist state anywhere in the world in recent history, so my info HAS to be read (if you follow that logic) rather than any party's hype, I read Marcx. If you have a greater source on the subject please let me know.
    Fourth I have not been aware of other counties brandishing the "Reds" label, but yes, I would look upon them harshly too.
    Fifth, on our nuclear free stance... you believe we should alow people to bring nuclear weapons to our country because? We said no Nucs, the US threw the toys outa the cot and said "we dont want to play with you anymore" (ending the ANZUS alliance) and suddenly the US lowers our trade ratings. Here we call that Bullying. I run what you americans would call a "Group Home" for children, I have a learnt loathing of bullies.
     
  3. Fixey

    Fixey New Member

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    Although I get what you are saying here Zapper, it is important to diferentiate between events that happened and Theology. It would be fool hardy to except a version of something that happened and form an opinion on soley what has been reported BUT when talking of theology it is imposible to form an opinion on anything other than what is writen about that theory mixed with your own learnings. IE to learn about communism you read Marcx, analise it with what you have been tought and form an opinion on it. To learn about Capitalism you would do the same with Smith...the only knowledge you can possibly get is by reading the Theologist, otherwise you are just repeating someone elses opinion of it. So in essence the only way to form an opinion (on thoery) is to read. It may sound like im spliting hairs but I think that it actually a vital differance.
     
  4. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The recent media coverage of US systematic torture and murder
    in the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad of Iraqi prisoners is most telling.

    Liberators, indeed.

    The US military personnel concerned, play right in to the hands of those who will use any excuse to attack the USA.
    Hating America.
    Can you blame them ?

    I couldn't.
     
  5. Fixey

    Fixey New Member

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    Murder? that hasnt been reported here. I thought the pictures of the torture where pretty damning indeed but Murder? that would add a new dimention. Bush may have to invade the USA. They have WMD, now human rights abuses? (ontop of the illegal detainee's in Cuba) and 1/2 the country in poverty. Sounds like a job for "Super George" to me.
     
  6. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    I agree... most often by luck or circumstance, we do play into the hands of our detractors...However, I am curious though... Where was the media coverage when four U.S. citizens whose bodies had been mutilated and put on public display ??? Yeah it was mentioned for a few days but didn't have the legs that this story has...

    Yes, a few bad apples but at least these folks will be punished.. How about all the atrocities that Sadaam performed without acknowledgement????

    I think we all agree that those images were disgusting, but they are still alive…right?

    Where was the media when Sadaam was raping and murdering his own people???

    Little wonder, some would say...Nuke'em...either way, we'll still tick everyone off! eh?
     
  7. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Yes, Murder???

    Limerickman, name your source my old friend....
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    It has been reported that the US Department of Defence has admitted that the death of two prisoners in Afghanistan - is being
    investigated and that the investigation is a murder investigation.

    The two dead prisoners were being questioned by the US Army
    at Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan.
    These reports have been carried by Channel 4, BBC, LeMonde,
    Irish Times newspaper, ElPais, SKY News (need I continue to list these references).

    In addition, a published photograph of a dead Iraqi prisoner,
    wrapped in sellophane, in Abu Ghuraib, is also subject to investigation according to SKY news today.
    The dead prisoner, died while being tortured at the prison, by US
    forces.
     
  9. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    OK...Even if these sources are correct....Big deal! A couple of dead prisoners..These guys could have died from heart failure, aides, stroke..held their breath too long, hunger strike or any number of reasons.. where is the proof of MURDER?

    All you have my friend is a few alleged deaths in captivity...

    However, the liberal media won't continually show evidence of MURDER of American cilivian and military on the streets of bagdad, najaf falluja etc...

    What is missing here is this...You see a humiliating image and all of the sudden, the Liberal Left and other detractors..i.e. the MEDIA want to conjur up all sorts of plots...

    How about the real stuff??? How about images of innocent civilians jumping from the 20th , 30th floor of a building because a plane was just rammed in it...How about images of a mutilated body hanging from a bridge???

    How about a bus full of innocent civilians (women and children) being blown to bits buy some suicide bomber???

    I fail to see the corelation between those atrocities and a couple of pictures depicting something out of a frathouse initiation.... or a couple of prisoners that were probably malnourished from the start or had health issues and died in captivity...NO evidence has been provided that they were either TORTURED or MURDERED...

    Paaaaaleeeease... gimme a break....

    p.s. Limerickman, I was staying silent but somehow I knew you would chime in about this subject....I'm still not convinced that you are not a Kerry operative....

    Cheers!
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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  11. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    L.Man,

    I'm sorry, it wasn't that clear that way you stated it...You stated "It had been reported" that could have been reported by some tabloid.... However, the DOD still has it under investigation...So, in my opinion, people are innocent until PROOVEN guilty.

    However, this is probably what you read:

    "the killing of an inmate attempting to escape, and 10 other deaths that were still under investigation.

    He said the other 10 cases involved deaths of inmates for undetermined or natural causes.

    One homicide involved a soldier who shot to death an Iraqi for throwing rocks at him."


    Rocks can kill, and you can die from a shot to the stomach so, if I'm holding a prisoner, and he wants to throw rocks at ME? I say...bang bang! too bad, it's him or me!
    I wonder if we had pictures of your government holding German Prisoners and how they treated them during WWII if they would reflect the same...How many German prisoners died while in captivity in your part of the world..eh? I'll bet ya, a lot more that a dozen!

    Also, concerning My Presidents comments.. I think it was a MISTAKE! But during an election year, I can see why he may have done it. I will tell you this and it disgusts me...two days ago on every news station in the US, EVERY 5 MINUTES EVERY NEWS CASTER MENTIONED THE WORD APPOLOGIZE! It was if it was scripted from the very beginning from the DEMs over here...No surprise, Republicans own talk radio and the DEMS own TV!

    Should Winston Churchill have apologized? Roosevelt? For whatever reason, the rest of the world thinks we owe them an apology for something. Take this forum for instance...How many times have I apologized(even in this post..look at the beginning)...How many have you offered up one LMAN? Are you always right?

    We Americans are always made to feel guilty about something...its in our nature I guess. We win wars, we feel guilty, we pour money into the country that we defeated and build them up and then they attack us again... So, yes, in that respect, we should apologize for being Civil...Even in victory. My point again, why try to be civil if it still won't please everyone...I say just go in take care of business and then appologize...quicker results that way!

    Lastly, we have over 130,000 troops deployed and yes, there will be a few that will not behave in a civilized manner. Dispicable isn't it? during war???

    As far as Iraq and 9/11 I believe we have already decided we will never agree about that one. I suppose you believe we attacked Iraq as a son's promise to his daddy or for the oil and we are in Afghanistan for the drugs...


    Limerickman, the bottom line is...It is not U.S. policy to torture prisoners or purposely kill innocent civilians..hell, we even have to be mindful of the whales with our naval ships...But as usual, the media, out of self preservation has to sensationalize a story to make $$$$.. I see were you get your skills..I am no match for you as a mere ordinary citizen....However, why don't we talk about how lucrative the Media business is L.MAN? Care to tell us how your bread is buttered???

    Enquiring minds what to know......
     
  12. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Hi Fixey,

    First of all, props to you for helping the children...They are our future and One of the many reasons I enlisted in my countries military...However, Limerick my old chum would have you believe I did it to get rich...:D

    I guess I need to read a little more about your counties nuk policy to be a little more informed to discuss the matter. So, I'm not going to just spout off some frail opinion, so I'll give ya that one.

    The thread has improved alot and I hope there is more talk about the matter.

    I wish you all the luck with your home and I can identify with your points...

    Well, since I'm in the military let me get back to murdering prisoners and taking pictures of them....(NOT!)

    Through that one in for I know thats what the LMAN thinks I'm doing....



    By the way, how are you guys poised for the Cup... or do you keep up with that?
     
  13. lisan

    lisan New Member

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    1. Dallas, TX

    2. No

    3. Of course not...

    All of that said; I do not agree with the war in Iraq. I'm a Democrat and will vote for Kerry (although...I really wish it had been Dean nominated, not Kerry). I don't think the U.S., or any sovereign nation, "deserves" to be attacked, occupied, or otherwise assaulted without direct actions against the assaulting nation. I disagree with the whole idea of a "pre-emptive strike" (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11); and even if I agreed that we should act pre-emptively, if there is an imminent threat; I don't believe that Iraq, in March 2003, was an imminent threat to the U.S.

    Phew...how's that for an answer.

    Lisa
     
  14. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Lisan,

    Honest answer and I respect your beliefs I have a brother in Houston, who is also a DEM...(poor sap..:) ).However, be aware that for over 11 years Iraq shot at our pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone and did not adhere to the stipulations presented to sadaam by the U.N. What good is having an orginization such as the U.N. if its words mean nothing..i.e. no one backs them up with action?

    Secondly, you can't be serious about dean...can you? Although a republican, I would have considered Lieberman agains that crew you had to chose from...Good luck with flip flop man and his "Benedict Arnold" stock of his, since his wifes company "outsources" over 70% of their work to other countries...

    Further,
    When he is talking to energy conservationists..he is downsizing and only has a mini van and a economy car to tool around D.C.

    When he is stumping in Detroit, he has a Suburban, a couple of minivans, a pt cruiser a large Truck etc...if he will lie about what kind of car he drives, if he will lie about throwing his medals away? BTW I'm in the military, "they are not interchangeable" then what else eh? But, I know, you don't have much to choose from now and if you hate bush that much to put flipper in...then, Good luck to ya.

    I respect your opinion, it is your right... just have a opposite view to yours thats all...

    cheers!
     
  15. lisan

    lisan New Member

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    I agree...poor sap (living in Houston - ick!).

    presented to sadaam by ??? THE U.N. (that's an N, not an S!). The U.N. inspections were working; if not, then where are the WMDs?

    Uh...yes...definitely serious. He needs much more polishing, but I totally agree with his ideals.

    Which is why Lieberman was last on my list...too many Republicans liked him (and, no, that's not the only reason I didn't like Lieberman). For your party, how on earth did they chose Bush over McCain? I would have voted for McCain over Gore on any day.

    See, this is the political [email protected] that Reps. think they are so good at. Besides the fact that neither Kerry nor his wife have ANYTHING to do with, nor do they have ANY input whatsoever with the business decisions made by the executives at Heinz; the Heinz Corporation has given millions in contributions to...drum roll, please...the BUSH campaign...and NOT ONE PENNY to the Kerry campaign. So, if you want to talk hypocrisy, then at least get your facts straight.

    I really don't know much about this particular issue. I don't know what the claims are that have been made about Kerry and his military awards; I do know that he, himself, has admitted that he has said and done things following Vietnam that were the actions of a foolish young person, trying to express his discontent with the U.S.'s Vietnam policy. I think that is fair. BTW, I'm not one of those Dems. that thinks Bush is evil. I think he is a good man that is doing what he thinks is right and just - I just disagree with him. I don't care about his military background and I don't care about his personal life; all I care about is his leadership abilities and views on issues important to me and my family.

    Good for you...and thanks for all you do.

    HUH???

    Like I said...I don't hate Bush. I think he's a good man; just a poor leader and not someone that is making decisions that I agree with.

    Obviously.

    Back at ya'.
    Lisa
     
  16. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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  17. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    I am very familiar with the geneva convention! What you fail to understand is that mistakes will be made and these brave men and women of the U.S. military may make an error in judgement. But don't you dare infer that these frivolous absurdities are torture! Humiliating yes, torture? uh...I don't think so. So, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and there are 150 soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention...While the other 130,000 + ARE! Give me a break!

    What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

    Further, WHO in the heck needs the U.N.? As far as I'm concerned it is a farce!

    Look, our military COC is investigating these DISPICABLE acts and have been for some time.

    How dare you typcast or try to impune the integrity of OUR troops who are risking their lives...SHAME ON YOU. Secondly, you have never been underfire have you? Yet you dare make a point about Bush? I very disapointed in you...

    Like I said, under the right circumstances, I would have shot rock man too! You nor I don't know what steps were taken to disarm him prior to shooting him..

    No the media weren't the perpatrators..Just the catylists for a shark feeding frenzy...What else is new. By blowing the lid off of this when asked to keep it quiet until we settled down the insurgents it put OUR BOYS and GIRLS at further RISK...Bad call once again by the Media who cares only about self preservation!

    Limerickman, cool your jets....I blame the soldiers the handful out of hundreds of thousands that are doing good work...I blame the media for portraying that this is how every American Soldier Acts and for PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!

    My friend, if you can't see "eye-to-eye" on that one then you are beyond help...

    I can understand that you are embarrased by some of the stuff you spin on here and thus are afraid to be identified by your place of employment. I wasn't trying to get an address on you, I was just curious as to what orginization you worked for...

    Oh, we don't feel guilty for being in an illegal war, you just want us to feel guilty for doing the right thing!
     
  18. zapper

    zapper Banned

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    Back at ya,

    Zapper
     
  19. Hunter

    Hunter New Member

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    I agree here with the beginning. It is absurd to hate. It is even more absurd to hate a country. You can disagree with a countries government, I do with just about everyone on the planet. I disagree with the media worldwide, there are a few exceptions. I firmly stand against any and all "global" whatever.
    I have met people from all over the world. I have met people from England, Canada, Argentina, Cuba, Peurto Rico, France, Israel, Austrailia, Vietnam, China, Japan, Korea, India, Germany, Spain, etc. None of these people I can say I completely disliked. I may disagree with the rulers of their country but that is all.
    For those who hate America, and Americans because of what the government does I feel sorry for you. These people have never met me or my family, friends, etc.
    For those here who have served in the U.S. armed forces I slaute you for putting yourself in front of bullets, despite the blunderous descisions the brass, and government officials make on your behalf.
     
  20. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    If I thought for one minute that all of the US armed forces acted in the way that those people have done in AG prison in Baghdad,
    I would say so.
    I never said that all US troops acted in this way.
    What I did say was that the troops at this prison acted in a way that has brought grave dishonour upon the entire US army.
    The actions of the few have tarnished the reputation of the many.
    How few - we cannot quantify yet because we dont not the know the extent of this case - so we'll wait and see how many troops
    are prosecuted by your goverment.
    We'll see how committed your goverment is to cleaning up it's act.

    Your COC has been covering this whole affair up since October 2003 - that's what your COC has been doing.
    I watched the Senate hearing yesterday - and it was clearly stated that the Sec of Def and his people did not bother to inform the Senate Arms Committee of these investigations until after the publication of those photos.
    THE POLITIICANS AT THE DoD ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ANSWERABLE TO THAT SENATE COMMITTEE.
    The point being - if all of this was going on and the COC were
    supposedly aware of it - why wasn't it brought to light by the COC
    to DoD and to the Senate Committee ?
    You see my guess is that the COC didn't know or didn't want to know about this issue and it's had was forced when these photos were disclosed.

    I am not in the least bit embarrased by what I have posted here.
    The fact of the matter is that lies and continous lying by the Bush Goverment has got the USA in to it's current mess.
    Bush is the problem.
    Bush hasn't got the brains to see that what he is doing is completely and utterly counter productive.
    You know, I really do think that he is being manipulated by President Cheney and Co.
    Bush simply hasn't got the mental capacity to make an informed
    decision about anything.
    He chose not to evaluate the weapons inspectors reports - he chose not to evaluate the threat caused by invading Iraq - he chose not to evaluate his unconditional support for Israel.

    Bush listens to advice - he accepts that advice at face value and
    then makes an order based on that advice.
    He doesn't test, evaluate, verify - any advice given to him.
    He was told repeatedly about the threat up to Sept 11th - and he ignored that advice.
    He was told repeatedly about the lack of WMD and he ignored that advice too.
    He ignored the advice that to discard the Palestinian roadmap
    will prove diasterous.
    He's a mouthpiece - that's about it.
    And that is the real worry.
     
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