Poll: Hating America



Originally posted by limerickman
That's a fair answer - Zapper.

I am glad that you agree that a part of peoples opinions, can and are, formed by the media and it's influence (be that influence good or bad).

I'll never be able to climb Mount Everest for example - but by reading Reinhold Meissners book, I can at least form an opinion that climbing Everest is hard - the Third Step has caused most fatalities etc.
So having never climbed Mt Everest, I can be happy that my opinion, based on that book, is reasonably correct.

The conclusion which an writer puts to any essay, article, book
is obviously biased to a certain degree.
The thoughts/conclusions are based on that persons perception.

And this indeed is why people outside of the USA may differ with those living in the USA, when it comes to perceiving kust what the USA is about.

Final point, I am glad that everyone is being cordial on this and other topics !

Concur Limerickman...I have enjoyed the debate and look forward to other topics in which we could agree...

I'm just sorry that perhaps our antics distracted others and prevented them from voicing their 'opinions" on the original question....Of course, there are those that would say that WE don't really want to hear the truth.... BUT I'm not starting anything... just wish we could see more dialogue in response to the original question....

Have a great weekend!

Z
 
Originally posted by zapper
Fixey,

New Zealand ok...Nice to meet ya.

BTW, I am not an expert on the topic but there are portions of your anti-nuk policy that frankly I don't agree with..But, that is none of my business, thats your debacle and it doesn't effect how I feel about a country, particularly yours.

However, thank you for bringing that up as I was not keenly aware that it was that big of an issue...

I'll be honest, I don't know much about communism, don't want to..not worth my time. I do however recall that there was or may still be a communist party in your country..I think it started around the 1920's?? Are you basing your expertise on this subject from their manefesto's?

I can indentify with your "opinions" but they are based on what you have "read"... I'm not a big fan of the printed word being used solely as a foundation for my opinions...One must take everything into context...

Lastly, like I said, I'm not an expert on the topic of communism but I bet if you look hard enough (I doubt it would take you very long) you will find other countries slinging the "communist" label at other countries. Do you feel the same about them?

Anyway, thanks for your honest comments but if I understand you correctly in addition to everything else the U.S. is accused of now we are not liked for labeling or improperly labeling a country???

Under certain cercumstances, I could understand bombing, sending troops, taking over governments eieiO... But a label?

Well, again, thanks fixey, I think you added some valuable incite here...

Hey Zapper
Firstly, I believe the tone of this thread has improved alot... cheers for the friendly response
secondly, the communist party here died along time ago, I have never read any of there doctrone.
Thirdly, as I stated I dont believe there has been a communist state anywhere in the world in recent history, so my info HAS to be read (if you follow that logic) rather than any party's hype, I read Marcx. If you have a greater source on the subject please let me know.
Fourth I have not been aware of other counties brandishing the "Reds" label, but yes, I would look upon them harshly too.
Fifth, on our nuclear free stance... you believe we should alow people to bring nuclear weapons to our country because? We said no Nucs, the US threw the toys outa the cot and said "we dont want to play with you anymore" (ending the ANZUS alliance) and suddenly the US lowers our trade ratings. Here we call that Bullying. I run what you americans would call a "Group Home" for children, I have a learnt loathing of bullies.
 
Originally posted by zapper
Limerickman,

First of all, your questions are fair and here is my answer.

I do read although, that may surprised you..hehe

Perhaps, if you would have taken the time to read this..." I can indentify with your "opinions" but they are based on what you have "read"... I'm not a big fan of the printed word being used solely as a foundation for my opinions...One must take everything into context." Maybe I should have put the words " SOLEY AS A FOUNDATION" in courier new 88pt perhaps you may have seen it. Of course I know it is difficult to read with "Night Vision Goggles" on... 007.

If you did read that and still have questions, then we will never see "eye-to-eye" old chap...

I care not to comment with certainty an opinion unless I either am witness to the matter or know someone reliable that witnessed it. That in conjuction of what I have filtered from TV, WEB, newspaper and other sources I may form my opinion.

My point??? You won't find me spouting an opinion SOLEY based on what I've read or heard from the media.

My opinion on knowledge is....KNOWLEDGE IS NOT EXCLUSIVLEY OBTAINED FROM THE PRINTED PAGE or from THE MEDIA! I believe experience is the best teacher!!

Now, being an undercover CIA agent working for the BBC, you may just have to rely on your script....:)

Limerickman, I understand your question but I think Fixey is a big boy and I thought I was being cordial...Didn't mean to bring in the Press.....:D

Although I get what you are saying here Zapper, it is important to diferentiate between events that happened and Theology. It would be fool hardy to except a version of something that happened and form an opinion on soley what has been reported BUT when talking of theology it is imposible to form an opinion on anything other than what is writen about that theory mixed with your own learnings. IE to learn about communism you read Marcx, analise it with what you have been tought and form an opinion on it. To learn about Capitalism you would do the same with Smith...the only knowledge you can possibly get is by reading the Theologist, otherwise you are just repeating someone elses opinion of it. So in essence the only way to form an opinion (on thoery) is to read. It may sound like im spliting hairs but I think that it actually a vital differance.
 
The recent media coverage of US systematic torture and murder
in the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad of Iraqi prisoners is most telling.

Liberators, indeed.

The US military personnel concerned, play right in to the hands of those who will use any excuse to attack the USA.
Hating America.
Can you blame them ?

I couldn't.
 
Originally posted by limerickman
The recent media coverage of US systematic torture and murder
in the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad of Iraqi prisoners is most telling.

Liberators, indeed.

The US military personnel concerned, play right in to the hands of those who will use any excuse to attack the USA.
Hating America.
Can you blame them ?

I couldn't.

Murder? that hasnt been reported here. I thought the pictures of the torture where pretty damning indeed but Murder? that would add a new dimention. Bush may have to invade the USA. They have WMD, now human rights abuses? (ontop of the illegal detainee's in Cuba) and 1/2 the country in poverty. Sounds like a job for "Super George" to me.
 
Originally posted by limerickman
The recent media coverage of US systematic torture and murder
in the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad of Iraqi prisoners is most telling.

Liberators, indeed.

The US military personnel concerned, play right in to the hands of those who will use any excuse to attack the USA.
Hating America.
Can you blame them ?

I couldn't.

I agree... most often by luck or circumstance, we do play into the hands of our detractors...However, I am curious though... Where was the media coverage when four U.S. citizens whose bodies had been mutilated and put on public display ??? Yeah it was mentioned for a few days but didn't have the legs that this story has...

Yes, a few bad apples but at least these folks will be punished.. How about all the atrocities that Sadaam performed without acknowledgement????

I think we all agree that those images were disgusting, but they are still alive…right?

Where was the media when Sadaam was raping and murdering his own people???

Little wonder, some would say...Nuke'em...either way, we'll still tick everyone off! eh?
 
Originally posted by Fixey
Murder? that hasnt been reported here. I thought the pictures of the torture where pretty damning indeed but Murder? that would add a new dimention. Bush may have to invade the USA. They have WMD, now human rights abuses? (ontop of the illegal detainee's in Cuba) and 1/2 the country in poverty. Sounds like a job for "Super George" to me.

Yes, Murder???

Limerickman, name your source my old friend....
 
It has been reported that the US Department of Defence has admitted that the death of two prisoners in Afghanistan - is being
investigated and that the investigation is a murder investigation.

The two dead prisoners were being questioned by the US Army
at Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan.
These reports have been carried by Channel 4, BBC, LeMonde,
Irish Times newspaper, ElPais, SKY News (need I continue to list these references).

In addition, a published photograph of a dead Iraqi prisoner,
wrapped in sellophane, in Abu Ghuraib, is also subject to investigation according to SKY news today.
The dead prisoner, died while being tortured at the prison, by US
forces.
 
Originally posted by limerickman
It has been reported that the US Department of Defence has admitted that the death of two prisoners in Afghanistan - is being
investigated and that the investigation is a murder investigation.

The two dead prisoners were being questioned by the US Army
at Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan.
These reports have been carried by Channel 4, BBC, LeMonde,
Irish Times newspaper, ElPais, SKY News (need I continue to list these references).

In addition, a published photograph of a dead Iraqi prisoner,
wrapped in sellophane, in Abu Ghuraib, is also subject to investigation according to SKY news today.
The dead prisoner, died while being tortured at the prison, by US
forces.

OK...Even if these sources are correct....Big deal! A couple of dead prisoners..These guys could have died from heart failure, aides, stroke..held their breath too long, hunger strike or any number of reasons.. where is the proof of MURDER?

All you have my friend is a few alleged deaths in captivity...

However, the liberal media won't continually show evidence of MURDER of American cilivian and military on the streets of bagdad, najaf falluja etc...

What is missing here is this...You see a humiliating image and all of the sudden, the Liberal Left and other detractors..i.e. the MEDIA want to conjur up all sorts of plots...

How about the real stuff??? How about images of innocent civilians jumping from the 20th , 30th floor of a building because a plane was just rammed in it...How about images of a mutilated body hanging from a bridge???

How about a bus full of innocent civilians (women and children) being blown to bits buy some suicide bomber???

I fail to see the corelation between those atrocities and a couple of pictures depicting something out of a frathouse initiation.... or a couple of prisoners that were probably malnourished from the start or had health issues and died in captivity...NO evidence has been provided that they were either TORTURED or MURDERED...

Paaaaaleeeease... gimme a break....

p.s. Limerickman, I was staying silent but somehow I knew you would chime in about this subject....I'm still not convinced that you are not a Kerry operative....

Cheers!
 
Originally posted by zapper
OK...Even if these sources are correct....Big deal! A couple of dead prisoners..These guys could have died from heart failure, aides, stroke..held their breath too long, hunger strike or any number of reasons.. where is the proof of MURDER?

If you read my reply, in the first sentance I clearly state that it is
the US Department of Defence which has launched a murder investigation.
The source is not the media - the source is your own goverment department who are investigating the murder (US DoD words) of two prisoners at Bagram, and this is reported by the media.
So let's get it straight.
Your goverment is investigating the murder of two people - the media have simply informed us of this fact.

All you have my friend is a few alleged deaths in captivity...

The deaths are not alleged - the deaths happened.
The question is were these prisoners murdered by the US forces.

However, the liberal media won't continually show evidence of MURDER of American cilivian and military on the streets of bagdad, najaf falluja etc...

The media on this side of the world is continually showing how the US forces are being attacked in Iraq.
Everyday, the BBC, SKY News, Channel 4, RTE and RAI show continual footage of the US army being attacked and attacking
Iraqi's.

What is missing here is this...You see a humiliating image and all of the sudden, the Liberal Left and other detractors..i.e. the MEDIA want to conjur up all sorts of plots...

How about the real stuff??? How about images of innocent civilians jumping from the 20th , 30th floor of a building because a plane was just rammed in it...How about images of a mutilated body hanging from a bridge???
What images of innocent people jumping from the 20th Floor ?
Are you still trying to link Saddam to 11th Sept 2001 attacks ?
For God's sake, your own Secretary of State has finally admitted
that Iraq had nothing to do with Al Quaeda.
You are still adding 1+1 = 3.
The mutilated bodies on the bridge were extensively reported and shown here in Europe.

How about a bus full of innocent civilians (women and children) being blown to bits buy some suicide bomber???
Was there a suicide attack in Iraq ?
Or are you referring to Israel here ?

I fail to see the corelation between those atrocities and a couple of pictures depicting something out of a frathouse initiation.... or a couple of prisoners that were probably malnourished from the start or had health issues and died in captivity...NO evidence has been provided that they were either TORTURED or MURDERED...
The evidence - be it hearsay, circumstantial or corrobrative - is enough for your country's Department of Defence to launch investigations of murder.
The evidence - be it hearsay, circumstantial or corrobrative - is enough for your country's president to apologise to the world
today at the White House.
The evidence - be it hearsay, circumstantial or corrobrative - is enough for your country's president to be interviewed on Al-Jazeera television in order for him to try to explain, filibuster,
about what the US forces were doing at Abu Ghuraib prison.

Paaaaaleeeease... gimme a break....

p.s. Limerickman, I was staying silent but somehow I knew you would chime in about this subject....I'm still not convinced that you are not a Kerry operative....

Cheers!
 
L.Man,

I'm sorry, it wasn't that clear that way you stated it...You stated "It had been reported" that could have been reported by some tabloid.... However, the DOD still has it under investigation...So, in my opinion, people are innocent until PROOVEN guilty.

However, this is probably what you read:

"the killing of an inmate attempting to escape, and 10 other deaths that were still under investigation.

He said the other 10 cases involved deaths of inmates for undetermined or natural causes.

One homicide involved a soldier who shot to death an Iraqi for throwing rocks at him."


Rocks can kill, and you can die from a shot to the stomach so, if I'm holding a prisoner, and he wants to throw rocks at ME? I say...bang bang! too bad, it's him or me!
I wonder if we had pictures of your government holding German Prisoners and how they treated them during WWII if they would reflect the same...How many German prisoners died while in captivity in your part of the world..eh? I'll bet ya, a lot more that a dozen!

Also, concerning My Presidents comments.. I think it was a MISTAKE! But during an election year, I can see why he may have done it. I will tell you this and it disgusts me...two days ago on every news station in the US, EVERY 5 MINUTES EVERY NEWS CASTER MENTIONED THE WORD APPOLOGIZE! It was if it was scripted from the very beginning from the DEMs over here...No surprise, Republicans own talk radio and the DEMS own TV!

Should Winston Churchill have apologized? Roosevelt? For whatever reason, the rest of the world thinks we owe them an apology for something. Take this forum for instance...How many times have I apologized(even in this post..look at the beginning)...How many have you offered up one LMAN? Are you always right?

We Americans are always made to feel guilty about something...its in our nature I guess. We win wars, we feel guilty, we pour money into the country that we defeated and build them up and then they attack us again... So, yes, in that respect, we should apologize for being Civil...Even in victory. My point again, why try to be civil if it still won't please everyone...I say just go in take care of business and then appologize...quicker results that way!

Lastly, we have over 130,000 troops deployed and yes, there will be a few that will not behave in a civilized manner. Dispicable isn't it? during war???

As far as Iraq and 9/11 I believe we have already decided we will never agree about that one. I suppose you believe we attacked Iraq as a son's promise to his daddy or for the oil and we are in Afghanistan for the drugs...


Limerickman, the bottom line is...It is not U.S. policy to torture prisoners or purposely kill innocent civilians..hell, we even have to be mindful of the whales with our naval ships...But as usual, the media, out of self preservation has to sensationalize a story to make $$$$.. I see were you get your skills..I am no match for you as a mere ordinary citizen....However, why don't we talk about how lucrative the Media business is L.MAN? Care to tell us how your bread is buttered???

Enquiring minds what to know......
 
Originally posted by Fixey
Hey Zapper
Firstly, I believe the tone of this thread has improved alot... cheers for the friendly response
secondly, the communist party here died along time ago, I have never read any of there doctrone.

Hi Fixey,

First of all, props to you for helping the children...They are our future and One of the many reasons I enlisted in my countries military...However, Limerick my old chum would have you believe I did it to get rich...:D

I guess I need to read a little more about your counties nuk policy to be a little more informed to discuss the matter. So, I'm not going to just spout off some frail opinion, so I'll give ya that one.

The thread has improved alot and I hope there is more talk about the matter.

I wish you all the luck with your home and I can identify with your points...

Well, since I'm in the military let me get back to murdering prisoners and taking pictures of them....(NOT!)

Through that one in for I know thats what the LMAN thinks I'm doing....



By the way, how are you guys poised for the Cup... or do you keep up with that?
 
Originally posted by bioguy
A new book called "Hating America: The New World Sport" suggests a couple of things. First, that the U.S. is generally hated by the world. Second that our historic allies are not our friends.

Questions:
1. Where are you from?
2. Do you hate the U.S.?
3. Did we deserve to be attacked on 9/11?

1. Dallas, TX

2. No

3. Of course not...

All of that said; I do not agree with the war in Iraq. I'm a Democrat and will vote for Kerry (although...I really wish it had been Dean nominated, not Kerry). I don't think the U.S., or any sovereign nation, "deserves" to be attacked, occupied, or otherwise assaulted without direct actions against the assaulting nation. I disagree with the whole idea of a "pre-emptive strike" (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11); and even if I agreed that we should act pre-emptively, if there is an imminent threat; I don't believe that Iraq, in March 2003, was an imminent threat to the U.S.

Phew...how's that for an answer.

Lisa
 
Originally posted by lisan
1. Dallas, TX

2. No

3. Of course not...

All of that said; I do not agree with the war in Iraq. I'm a Democrat and will vote for Kerry (although...I really wish it had been Dean nominated, not Kerry). I don't think the U.S., or any sovereign nation, "deserves" to be attacked, occupied, or otherwise assaulted without direct actions against the assaulting nation. I disagree with the whole idea of a "pre-emptive strike" (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11); and even if I agreed that we should act pre-emptively, if there is an imminent threat; I don't believe that Iraq, in March 2003, was an imminent threat to the U.S.

Phew...how's that for an answer.
Lisa

Lisan,

Honest answer and I respect your beliefs I have a brother in Houston, who is also a DEM...(poor sap..:) ).However, be aware that for over 11 years Iraq shot at our pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone and did not adhere to the stipulations presented to sadaam by the U.N. What good is having an orginization such as the U.N. if its words mean nothing..i.e. no one backs them up with action?

Secondly, you can't be serious about dean...can you? Although a republican, I would have considered Lieberman agains that crew you had to chose from...Good luck with flip flop man and his "Benedict Arnold" stock of his, since his wifes company "outsources" over 70% of their work to other countries...

Further,
When he is talking to energy conservationists..he is downsizing and only has a mini van and a economy car to tool around D.C.

When he is stumping in Detroit, he has a Suburban, a couple of minivans, a pt cruiser a large Truck etc...if he will lie about what kind of car he drives, if he will lie about throwing his medals away? BTW I'm in the military, "they are not interchangeable" then what else eh? But, I know, you don't have much to choose from now and if you hate bush that much to put flipper in...then, Good luck to ya.

I respect your opinion, it is your right... just have a opposite view to yours thats all...

cheers!
 
Originally posted by zapper
Lisan,

Honest answer and I respect your beliefs I have a brother in Houston, who is also a DEM...(poor sap..:) ).

I agree...poor sap (living in Houston - ick!).

However, be aware that for over 11 years Iraq shot at our pilots enforcing the No Fly Zone and did not adhere to the stipulations presented to sadaam by the U.N. What good is having an orginization such as the U.N. if its words mean nothing..i.e. no one backs them up with action?

presented to sadaam by ??? THE U.N. (that's an N, not an S!). The U.N. inspections were working; if not, then where are the WMDs?

Secondly, you can't be serious about dean...can you?
Uh...yes...definitely serious. He needs much more polishing, but I totally agree with his ideals.

Although a republican, I would have considered Lieberman agains that crew you had to chose from...

Which is why Lieberman was last on my list...too many Republicans liked him (and, no, that's not the only reason I didn't like Lieberman). For your party, how on earth did they chose Bush over McCain? I would have voted for McCain over Gore on any day.

Good luck with flip flop man and his "Benedict Arnold" stock of his, since his wifes company "outsources" over 70% of their work to other countries...

See, this is the political cr@p that Reps. think they are so good at. Besides the fact that neither Kerry nor his wife have ANYTHING to do with, nor do they have ANY input whatsoever with the business decisions made by the executives at Heinz; the Heinz Corporation has given millions in contributions to...drum roll, please...the BUSH campaign...and NOT ONE PENNY to the Kerry campaign. So, if you want to talk hypocrisy, then at least get your facts straight.

Further,
When he is talking to energy conservationists..he is downsizing and only has a mini van and a economy car to tool around D.C.

When he is stumping in Detroit, he has a Suburban, a couple of minivans, a pt cruiser a large Truck etc...if he will lie about what kind of car he drives, if he will lie about throwing his medals away?

I really don't know much about this particular issue. I don't know what the claims are that have been made about Kerry and his military awards; I do know that he, himself, has admitted that he has said and done things following Vietnam that were the actions of a foolish young person, trying to express his discontent with the U.S.'s Vietnam policy. I think that is fair. BTW, I'm not one of those Dems. that thinks Bush is evil. I think he is a good man that is doing what he thinks is right and just - I just disagree with him. I don't care about his military background and I don't care about his personal life; all I care about is his leadership abilities and views on issues important to me and my family.

BTW I'm in the military

Good for you...and thanks for all you do.

, "they are not interchangeable" then what else eh?
HUH???

But, I know, you don't have much to choose from now and if you hate bush that much to put flipper in...then, Good luck to ya.

Like I said...I don't hate Bush. I think he's a good man; just a poor leader and not someone that is making decisions that I agree with.

I respect your opinion, it is your right... just have a opposite view to yours thats all...

Obviously.


Back at ya'.
Lisa
 
Originally posted by zapper
L.Man,

I'm sorry, it wasn't that clear that way you stated it...You stated "It had been reported" that could have been reported by some tabloid.... However, the DOD still has it under investigation...So, in my opinion, people are innocent until PROOVEN guilty.
Limerickman : Indeed people are innocent until proven guilty - but on the basis that the US DoD has prepared a case with charges of homicide against two of it's own soldiers, indicates to me that
DoD are in possession of such evidence that makes them (DoD) feel that they can bring a case.
By the way I do not read "tabloids" - I read what we call broadsheets : Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times of London, The Irish Times etc.

However, this is probably what you read:

"the killing of an inmate attempting to escape, and 10 other deaths that were still under investigation.

He said the other 10 cases involved deaths of inmates for undetermined or natural causes.

One homicide involved a soldier who shot to death an Iraqi for throwing rocks at him."


Rocks can kill, and you can die from a shot to the stomach so, if I'm holding a prisoner, and he wants to throw rocks at ME? I say...bang bang! too bad, it's him or me!
I wonder if we had pictures of your government holding German Prisoners and how they treated them during WWII if they would reflect the same...How many German prisoners died while in captivity in your part of the world..eh? I'll bet ya, a lot more that a dozen!
Limerickman : Your country along with many other nations signed up to the Geneva Convention.
The Geneva Convention is clear and unequivocal when it stipulates the steps that soldiers must take when engaging,
capturing and imprisoning their enemy.
Your country and it's forces are bound by that convention.
If a person throws a rock at a soldier - that soldier is required under the Geneva Convention to identify himself to that combatant and to instruct that combatant to desist from attacking.
If the combatant refuses to engage with this instruction, the soldier is compelled to disarm that combatant with minimum force.
Question : did that particular soldier identify himself to that combatant ?
If so, why did the soldier not disarm the combatant with minimum
harm to that combatant ?

Also, concerning My Presidents comments.. I think it was a MISTAKE! But during an election year, I can see why he may have done it. I will tell you this and it disgusts me...two days ago on every news station in the US, EVERY 5 MINUTES EVERY NEWS CASTER MENTIONED THE WORD APPOLOGIZE! It was if it was scripted from the very beginning from the DEMs over here...No surprise, Republicans own talk radio and the DEMS own TV!
Limerickman : Are you implying that the Democratic Party have a special "in" with the national (US) and international media whereby it can influence the reporting of the Bush's apology ?
The media did not torture and humiliate those prisoners in Abu Gharaib prison - it was the US army who did these actions and your Commander in Chief is apologising for this.
The media were simply reporting that apology.

Should Winston Churchill have apologized? Roosevelt? For whatever reason, the rest of the world thinks we owe them an apology for something. Take this forum for instance...How many times have I apologized(even in this post..look at the beginning)...How many have you offered up one LMAN? Are you always right?
Limerickman : I take very very grave exception to your attempt to equate the Iraq War with WW2.
First of all, the League of Nations sanctioned the allied response
to the those forces such as Nazism in 1939-1945.
WW2 was deemed a "just war" to stop the spread of Nazism/
This war in Iraq is illegal - it was not approved by the United Nations, it was not supported by MILLIONS of people in your country and throughout the world.
This illegal war was perpetrated on a series of lies put out by the
Busg Goverment at the United Nations and throughout the international media.
The war premised upon the potential threat of WMD - has been
subsequently been confirmed to be a lie by Colin Powell.
To give Bush equal moral equivalence to Winston Chruchill or Roosevelt is sickening.
Winston Churchill unlike Bush did his national duty and served in the armed forces of his country unlike Bush !

We Americans are always made to feel guilty about something...its in our nature I guess. We win wars, we feel guilty, we pour money into the country that we defeated and build them up and then they attack us again... So, yes, in that respect, we should apologize for being Civil...Even in victory. My point again, why try to be civil if it still won't please everyone...I say just go in take care of business and then appologize...quicker results that way!
Limerickman : perhaps you - as a nation - feel guilty for perpetrating an illegal war ?
Credit where it is due - with US help Europe would still be at each others throats and the job of reconstruction would still be in it's infancy.
We in Europe owe a debt of gratitude to Secretary Marshall for helping to reconstruct - peacefully- Europe.

Lastly, we have over 130,000 troops deployed and yes, there will be a few that will not behave in a civilized manner. Dispicable isn't it? during war???
Limerickman : Your Mr.Rumsfeld tonight in front of the Arms Senate Committee has informed us that there are thousands of photographs and a video showing systematic torture in Iraq.
Despicable - you said it.

As far as Iraq and 9/11 I believe we have already decided we will never agree about that one. I suppose you believe we attacked Iraq as a son's promise to his daddy or for the oil and we are in Afghanistan for the drugs...
Limerickman : it is my contention that the USA's only interest in Iraq ia to do with Oil.

Limerickman, the bottom line is...It is not U.S. policy to torture prisoners or purposely kill innocent civilians..hell, we even have to be mindful of the whales with our naval ships...But as usual, the media, out of self preservation has to sensationalize a story to make $$$$.. I see were you get your skills..I am no match for you as a mere ordinary citizen....However, why don't we talk about how lucrative the Media business is L.MAN? Care to tell us how your bread is buttered???
Limerickman : I truly hope that the US army is what you say it is.
What has happened in Abu Ghuraib is disgusting and it casts your
country and it's forces in a terrible light.
The definition of an army is discipline - what happened in AG was a total breakdown in discipline.
The use of contractors (mercenaries) by the US forces is wrong.
I also feel that the GI's who are there may not be trained correctly.
Any army worth it's salt has to be disciplined at all times - even under the greatest duress.
The photographs and the situation in which they were taken, were not conditions of extreme duress (to the soldiers).
If some GI's cannot maintain their discipline in relatively stress free conditions - what hope do they have when under fire ??

Limerickman :
Finally, it is of little importance where I work - the media organisation I work for is state funded - we don't need to
"increase ratings" or sensationalise issues.
We have a saying here in Ireland "perhaps I'm speaking too quickly or you're listening too slowly"
The media - in this instance - are reporting the wrongdoing of soldiers in AG.
To blame the media for the disgusting acts of these soldiers is perverse and duplicitous.
Zapper - blame the soldiers - not the media





Enquiring minds what to know......
 
Originally posted by limerickman

I am very familiar with the geneva convention! What you fail to understand is that mistakes will be made and these brave men and women of the U.S. military may make an error in judgement. But don't you dare infer that these frivolous absurdities are torture! Humiliating yes, torture? uh...I don't think so. So, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and there are 150 soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention...While the other 130,000 + ARE! Give me a break!

What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Further, WHO in the heck needs the U.N.? As far as I'm concerned it is a farce!

Look, our military COC is investigating these DISPICABLE acts and have been for some time.

How dare you typcast or try to impune the integrity of OUR troops who are risking their lives...SHAME ON YOU. Secondly, you have never been underfire have you? Yet you dare make a point about Bush? I very disapointed in you...

Like I said, under the right circumstances, I would have shot rock man too! You nor I don't know what steps were taken to disarm him prior to shooting him..

No the media weren't the perpatrators..Just the catylists for a shark feeding frenzy...What else is new. By blowing the lid off of this when asked to keep it quiet until we settled down the insurgents it put OUR BOYS and GIRLS at further RISK...Bad call once again by the Media who cares only about self preservation!

Limerickman, cool your jets....I blame the soldiers the handful out of hundreds of thousands that are doing good work...I blame the media for portraying that this is how every American Soldier Acts and for PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!

My friend, if you can't see "eye-to-eye" on that one then you are beyond help...

I can understand that you are embarrased by some of the stuff you spin on here and thus are afraid to be identified by your place of employment. I wasn't trying to get an address on you, I was just curious as to what orginization you worked for...

Oh, we don't feel guilty for being in an illegal war, you just want us to feel guilty for doing the right thing!
 
Originally posted by lisan
I agree...poor sap (living in Houston - ick!).

Just glad to be here in VA!

presented to sadaam by ??? THE U.N. (that's an N, not an S!). The U.N. inspections were working; if not, then where are the WMDs? Lisa, Lisa, Lisa....who do you think was enforcing the "No fly zone" ??? The U.N.??? No thats a S not an N! tehee

Uh...yes...definitely serious. He needs much more polishing, but I totally agree with his ideals.

NOT ENOUGH POLISH IN THE WORLD!!!


Which is why Lieberman was last on my list...too many Republicans liked him (and, no, that's not the only reason I didn't like Lieberman). For your party, how on earth did they chose Bush over McCain? I would have voted for McCain over Gore on any day.

BUT GORE ENDORSED YOUR UNPOLISHED CANDIDATE????


See, this is the political cr@p that Reps. think they are so good at. Besides the fact that neither Kerry nor his wife have ANYTHING to do with, nor do they have ANY input whatsoever with the business decisions made by the executives at Heinz; the Heinz Corporation has given millions in contributions to...drum roll, please...the BUSH campaign...and NOT ONE PENNY to the Kerry campaign. So, if you want to talk hypocrisy, then at least get your facts straight.


LET'S GET ONE FACT STRAIGHT. THEY DO OWN STOCK AND IT'S IN THE MILLIONS...YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT...SO, IF HE IS ELECTED I SUPPOSE HE WOULD FORCE THIS "BENEDICT ARNOLD" COMPANY TO MOVE ALL THOSE JOBS BACK TO THE US???WHAT IS HIS PLAN FOR THAT? DOES HE HAVE A PLAN FOR ANYTHING.
SO, KERRY IS CONTRIBUTING TO BUSH'S CAMPAIGN....WOW, THAT'S A GOOD ONE.....

I really don't know much about this particular issue. I don't know what the claims are that have been made about Kerry and his military awards; I do know that he, himself, has admitted that he has said and done things following Vietnam that were the actions of a foolish young person, trying to express his discontent with the U.S.'s Vietnam policy. SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT....THE DEMS SAY THAT YOUNG BUSH WHO WAS IN THE NATIONAL GUARD DIDN'T SHOW UP here and there AND THAT IS A DISGRACE BUT A YOUNG KERRY...who burned viliages, sold out his comrads was just a foolish young person and thus deserves to be President...pure genius! The new Liberal Party is getting funnier by the minute...Don't they have a show on comedy central???

however,
WELL YOU BETTER CARE ABOUT A LIAR AND SOMEONE WHO IS SPINLESS LEADING THIS COUNTRY...

HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT SOMEONE WHO CAN'T MAKE UP HIS OWN MIND, WHO LIES IN PUBLIC DAILY IS A GOOD LEADER???

WHAT DO YOU THINK OTHER NATIONS WILL FEEL TOWARDS US KNOWING THAT ONE DAY HE IS SAYING ONE THING, TOMORROW...180 DEGREE TURN????

Good for you...and thanks for all you do.

Appreciate the thanks but don't deserve it...I just enjoy protecting your right to be WRONG....:)


Like I said...I don't hate Bush. I think he's a good man; just a poor leader and not someone that is making decisions that I agree with.

FAIR ENOUGH...WISH YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT IT THOUGH...KERRY IS WEAK!...NOT A LEADER....Plus he said a curse word in Rolling Stone magazine!!!whoooooo, he's a real man....


Back at ya'.

Back at ya,

Zapper
 
I agree here with the beginning. It is absurd to hate. It is even more absurd to hate a country. You can disagree with a countries government, I do with just about everyone on the planet. I disagree with the media worldwide, there are a few exceptions. I firmly stand against any and all "global" whatever.
I have met people from all over the world. I have met people from England, Canada, Argentina, Cuba, Peurto Rico, France, Israel, Austrailia, Vietnam, China, Japan, Korea, India, Germany, Spain, etc. None of these people I can say I completely disliked. I may disagree with the rulers of their country but that is all.
For those who hate America, and Americans because of what the government does I feel sorry for you. These people have never met me or my family, friends, etc.
For those here who have served in the U.S. armed forces I slaute you for putting yourself in front of bullets, despite the blunderous descisions the brass, and government officials make on your behalf.
 
Originally posted by zapper
I am very familiar with the geneva convention! What you fail to understand is that mistakes will be made and these brave men and women of the U.S. military may make an error in judgement. But don't you dare infer that these frivolous absurdities are torture! Humiliating yes, torture? uh...I don't think so. So, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt and there are 150 soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention...While the other 130,000 + ARE! Give me a break!

What portion of the Geneva Convention are the terrorist adhering to? Please answer that one, I really want to know.

Further, WHO in the heck needs the U.N.? As far as I'm concerned it is a farce!

Look, our military COC is investigating these DISPICABLE acts and have been for some time.

How dare you typcast or try to impune the integrity of OUR troops who are risking their lives...SHAME ON YOU. Secondly, you have never been underfire have you? Yet you dare make a point about Bush? I very disapointed in you...

Like I said, under the right circumstances, I would have shot rock man too! You nor I don't know what steps were taken to disarm him prior to shooting him..

No the media weren't the perpatrators..Just the catylists for a shark feeding frenzy...What else is new. By blowing the lid off of this when asked to keep it quiet until we settled down the insurgents it put OUR BOYS and GIRLS at further RISK...Bad call once again by the Media who cares only about self preservation!

Limerickman, cool your jets....I blame the soldiers the handful out of hundreds of thousands that are doing good work...I blame the media for portraying that this is how every American Soldier Acts and for PUTTING OUR TROOPS AT RISK!

My friend, if you can't see "eye-to-eye" on that one then you are beyond help...

I can understand that you are embarrased by some of the stuff you spin on here and thus are afraid to be identified by your place of employment. I wasn't trying to get an address on you, I was just curious as to what orginization you worked for...

Oh, we don't feel guilty for being in an illegal war, you just want us to feel guilty for doing the right thing!

If I thought for one minute that all of the US armed forces acted in the way that those people have done in AG prison in Baghdad,
I would say so.
I never said that all US troops acted in this way.
What I did say was that the troops at this prison acted in a way that has brought grave dishonour upon the entire US army.
The actions of the few have tarnished the reputation of the many.
How few - we cannot quantify yet because we dont not the know the extent of this case - so we'll wait and see how many troops
are prosecuted by your goverment.
We'll see how committed your goverment is to cleaning up it's act.

Your COC has been covering this whole affair up since October 2003 - that's what your COC has been doing.
I watched the Senate hearing yesterday - and it was clearly stated that the Sec of Def and his people did not bother to inform the Senate Arms Committee of these investigations until after the publication of those photos.
THE POLITIICANS AT THE DoD ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ANSWERABLE TO THAT SENATE COMMITTEE.
The point being - if all of this was going on and the COC were
supposedly aware of it - why wasn't it brought to light by the COC
to DoD and to the Senate Committee ?
You see my guess is that the COC didn't know or didn't want to know about this issue and it's had was forced when these photos were disclosed.

I am not in the least bit embarrased by what I have posted here.
The fact of the matter is that lies and continous lying by the Bush Goverment has got the USA in to it's current mess.
Bush is the problem.
Bush hasn't got the brains to see that what he is doing is completely and utterly counter productive.
You know, I really do think that he is being manipulated by President Cheney and Co.
Bush simply hasn't got the mental capacity to make an informed
decision about anything.
He chose not to evaluate the weapons inspectors reports - he chose not to evaluate the threat caused by invading Iraq - he chose not to evaluate his unconditional support for Israel.

Bush listens to advice - he accepts that advice at face value and
then makes an order based on that advice.
He doesn't test, evaluate, verify - any advice given to him.
He was told repeatedly about the threat up to Sept 11th - and he ignored that advice.
He was told repeatedly about the lack of WMD and he ignored that advice too.
He ignored the advice that to discard the Palestinian roadmap
will prove diasterous.
He's a mouthpiece - that's about it.
And that is the real worry.