Poor man's Powercranks? (PPC)

[joaco21]

This and your previous post start to explain things a bit more.

Although you talk about buying your PT three years ago you have not indicated how long you trained and at what effort three years ago, two years ago, and last year. How has your winter routine changed?

20 years ago you trained about three hours per day, now you are down to one hour. The length of time spent training does not necessarily indicate you are training better. The shorter training at greater efforts would yield different results. Just like sprinters are different than long distance runners. So if you are putting forth the same amount of effort in less time, you will see a difference in your results.

Age an weight do not mean that much to me. I am 20 years older and 20KG heavier than I was when I really started riding. My percentage body fat is about the same as it was. I did not use a cyclocomputer to verify but I think I am faster and a better rider than I was. I know I can rider farther/longer with less fatigue then I could 20 years ago.

It is the post just prior to this one that intrigues me the most. Why would you wait until the three o'clock position to start applying force? How did the different crank change this?

Unweighting seems straight forward to me. I have been one that learned to run on my toes so it just made sense to me to get my feet up on the recovery stroke.

Why would anyone with toe clips or clipless pedals not lift up when doing a hard pull? That was the whole point of putting clips on pedals. In fact I remember a conversation I had with a person about clipless pedals. I did not know how you would ride with them if you did not have your shoes on. When they asked why my comment was, "my feet will come off the pedals on the back stroke". I was rightfully laughed at.

Had you ever done successful ILS?

As far as your improvement compared to other users. You are about 40% less than aveage, and someone else will have improved by 55%. Does that sound about right to you?

This is getting too complicated for me. I have done ILS but I have never done 5 hours ILS with three 1st cat climbs. On the other hand I have done such workout with PowerCranks. Now I feel I can use more muscles more time without getting breathless. Now I can climb at 175 bpm for 45 minutes or so, and before I was not able to go over 171 for more than 8 minutes.

My body fat 14 years ago was 6%, now it is 9,5%. But I do not know what all this cares, since I am just comparing my results from 2005 with those in 2006 and now 2007. 1992 was just a reference. I do not have power files so old. So I can just say that in March 2005 I was able to do 1 hour at 280 Watts, by June 2006 I was able to do 329 Watts, in September 2006 I did 358 Watts and now in March 2007 I have recorded 47 minutes at 377 Watts. My training schedule is the same since 2002.

So I do not know the explanation for these results. And yes, maybe my pedaling technicque was not the best. In fact the first week I used PowerCranks I was not able to use them longer than 20 minutes a day. But I know that the results are far beyond my expectations

 

[vadiver]

This is getting too complicated for me. I have done ILS but I have never done 5 hours ILS with three 1st cat climbs. On the other hand I have done such workout with PowerCranks. Now I feel I can use more muscles more time without getting breathless. Now I can climb at 175 bpm for 45 minutes or so, and before I was not able to go over 171 for more than 8 minutes.

My body fat 14 years ago was 6%, now it is 9,5%. But I do not know what all this cares, since I am just comparing my results from 2005 with those in 2006 and now 2007. 1992 was just a reference. I do not have power files so old. So I can just say that in March 2005 I was able to do 1 hour at 280 Watts, by June 2006 I was able to do 329 Watts, in September 2006 I did 358 Watts and now in March 2007 I have recorded 47 minutes at 377 Watts. My training schedule is the same since 2002.

So I do not know the explanation for these results. And yes, maybe my pedaling technicque was not the best. In fact the first week I used PowerCranks I was not able to use them longer than 20 minutes a day. But I know that the results are far beyond my expectations

June 2006 is when you bought the product?

You pedaling technique has a lot to do with it. You gained a lot of distance in your stroke just by going from 3 o'clock to 1 o'clock. Then you were forced to unweight. That is why you gained 25% last year and only 5% to now. That 5% is probably the more realistic figure of improvement.

All of this can be done by doing ILS or through visualization. A good coach would have acoumplished the same thing. The five hours of ILS on cat 1s was overkill. It probalby does not hurt, but I would doubt the gains are worth the cost. The only difference is you cannot cheat yourself. But then again why cheat in training?

 

[joaco21]

June 2006 is when you bought the product?

You pedaling technique has a lot to do with it. You gained a lot of distance in your stroke just by going from 3 o'clock to 1 o'clock. Then you were forced to unweight. That is why you gained 25% last year and only 5% to now. That 5% is probably the more realistic figure of improvement.

All of this can be done by doing ILS or through visualization. A good coach would have acoumplished the same thing. The five hours of ILS on cat 1s was overkill. It probalby does not hurt, but I would doubt the gains are worth the cost. The only difference is you cannot cheat yourself. But then again why cheat in training?

I bought PowerCranks in March 2006 and started using them inmediatlly after.

Maybe you are right about what you say about other ways of getting the same inprovement by hiring a coach. The only problem being that I can pay for a pair of PowerCranks (although very expensive) but I cannot affor a coach.

 

[vadiver]

I bought PowerCranks in March 2006 and started using them inmediatlly after.

Maybe you are right about what you say about other ways of getting the same inprovement by hiring a coach. The only problem being that I can pay for a pair of PowerCranks (although very expensive) but I cannot affor a coach.

I understand. On of the links Frank provided had a coach's comments on it. It was essentially he was amazed at the people who talk to him about spending thousands of dollars on items on their multi-thousand dollar bikes and then say they cannot afford a coach.

The thing I like about a coach over a product is they can tell you multiple things that could be improved on. Further, they can continue to provide good advice as you mature. Where a product will only provide assistance for that specific need.

Thanks for all your input. It has clairified a lot about the product. Good luck on the season.

 

[jawnn]

There was a test done by one of the cycling magazines about 10 to 12 years ago. They rigged a number of bikes with load cells on the pedals to read pressure pulling and pushing. The riders were a mix of everything from average Joes to Cat. 5,4,3,2,and,1 racers, Iron-Man triatheletes and pro-tour racers. Even though most of the riders felt like they pulled up a considerable amount the test showed that only a few of the very elite riders pulled up enough to make a measurable difference.







read this for more info on mechanical stuff http://funnyfarmart.com/Qring.htm

 

[joaco21]

This means any improvements he reports have to be ignored. This may also explain Frank's 40 % improvement as he has already stated that he had not the slightest idea about his pedaling technique before he started using PC's. I have always known that early instant total unweighting controls your timing or start of your power stroke but I did not believe that there could be such a delay for some riders.

I have just finished my VO2 max test, and these are the results. :

VO2 Max. 5794 ml/min
VO2 Max rel. 85,46 ml/min/kg
Max Power 451 Watts at 181 bpm
FTP (1 hour): 394 Watts at 169 bpm at 87% of VO2 Max

My doctor was impressed again, but he confirmed that being the second time he has seen these results he is now sure of them. I think that these results speak by themselve. I will keep posting my racing results since the racing season is about to start here in Sain next weekend.

Thanks to all

Joaquin

 

[Fday]

I will keep posting my racing results since the racing season is about to start here in Sain next weekend.

This will be very disappointing to a certain segment who hang out here who just wish this particular thread would go away because they don't know what to say, other than "This is impossible, I don't believe it"

I, for one, am looking forward to hearing of your results.

 

[vadiver]

This will be very disappointing to a certain segment who hang out here who just wish this particular thread would go away because they don't know what to say, other than "This is impossible, I don't believe it"

I, for one, am looking forward to hearing of your results.

Actually not at all. Since Jacao indicated he changes is pedaling technique from starting to apply power at about 1 o'clock from 3 o'clock on the down stroke that would not prove a thing from your product.

He was wasting 25-50% of the pedal stroke. He could have done that with just a bit of concentration and coaching. Why he anyone would wait until 3 o'clock to start applying force is a bit puzzleing.

Until you provide a properly conducted study, your claims are not proven. Again since Jacao produced less than a 40% claim, someone else has to have produced much more than 40%. Not to mention the people who are only producing 10% improvement.

What will be interesting to see from Jacao, is if his performance continues to improve or if it stops. Putting to rest you claim that this great improvement should last over 18 months.

And again, one person can very well be an anomoly.

 

[Fday]

Again since Jacao produced less than a 40% claim, someone else has to have produced much more than 40%.

I guess it depends upon which number you look at. There is only an 11% improvement in VO2max yet a 39% improvement in FTP(1 hour). Not quite 40% but I will round up and there it is, a 40% "power improvement" in someone who is probably above average for our average customer. What percentage of racing cyclists have a 1 hour FTP of 284? Substantially less than half, I suspect. And, if you were to choose a power improvement in any one element of power would you rather it be in max power or FTP?

Anyhow, the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[vadiver]

I guess it depends upon which number you look at. There is only an 11% improvement in VO2max yet a 39% improvement in FTP(1 hour). Not quite 40% but I will round up and there it is, a 40% "power improvement" in someone who is probably above average for our average customer. What percentage of racing cyclists have a 1 hour FTP of 284? Substantially less than half, I suspect. And, if you were to choose a power improvement in any one element of power would you rather it be in max power or FTP?

Anyhow, the numbers speak for themselves.

You are correct about the numbers. Six months in he had a 25% improvement. Now after 13 months he had a 39% improvement.

However, he changed his pedal stroke when he began to apply power on the DOWN stroke. This would lend more support to the PUSH HARDER crowd than your pull up crowd.

If a person has a bad pedal technique to begin with, it is easy for improvement. And a coach would fix that in less than six months.

Get your study and come back with the results. So far the two studies you have show nothing in six weeks of use. And yes six weeks is not six months but that is all we have to go on. That and isolated people with these improvements.

What percentage of these great improvements are there compared to your sales?

 

[Fday]

However, he changed his pedal stroke when he began to apply power on the DOWN stroke. This would lend more support to the PUSH HARDER crowd than your pull up crowd.

If a person has a bad pedal technique to begin with, it is easy for improvement. And a coach would fix that in less than six months.

You are wrong. The "just push harder" crowd do not think technique matters. Pushing harder is all that matters. These results lend credence to the "technique matters" school. PowerCranks gave him the feedback he needed to be able to improve his technique and train new muscles. How else can this result be explained.

Perhaps you are right, a coach might have been able to do this. However, I challenge any coach anywhere to present data that is even remotely similar to this in any client they have coached without the assistance of PowerCranks. If it is so easy to accomplish these kinds of improvements should be a dime a dozen. Where are they? If they are not there I suspect these changes are not quite as easy to achieve as you seem to think they are. I suspect the silence of the coaches tells us what the answer is.

 

[doctorSpoc]

You are wrong. The "just push harder" crowd do not think technique matters. Pushing harder is all that matters. These results lend credence to the "technique matters" school...

+1

if accurate... if anything it would demonstate that technique does matter... i actually find it quite hillarious that anyone would advocate "push harder", when it is so obviously wrong.

 

[joaco21]

You are correct about the numbers. Six months in he had a 25% improvement. Now after 13 months he had a 39% improvement.

However, he changed his pedal stroke when he began to apply power on the DOWN stroke. This would lend more support to the PUSH HARDER crowd than your pull up crowd.

If a person has a bad pedal technique to begin with, it is easy for improvement. And a coach would fix that in less than six months.

Get your study and come back with the results. So far the two studies you have show nothing in six weeks of use. And yes six weeks is not six months but that is all we have to go on. That and isolated people with these improvements.

What percentage of these great improvements are there compared to your sales?

I just wanted to clarify something about my pedaling technoicque. As I said before I have been doing ILS long time ago. And I could succesfully pedal for about 5 minutes with a single leg. I have concentrated in pedalling technicque all my life as any amateur cyclist, but when I say I tended to pedal from 3 o'clock it doesn't mean I was not "trying" to pedal from 1 oclock, or even pedal in circles. It means that when I started using PowerCranks I realized what it really felt to pedal hard from 1 o'clock. Now my feeling of pedaling has changed even further to pedal all the way around the circumference, and I feel like I cannot stop doing that even with my regular crankset. It is something very difficuoult to describe when you have never "felt" it before. I have lent my bike to all my team mates, which are all experienced riders, and they all felt how awkward was pedalling with powercranks for more than 20 seconds. When we do our group rides they all tell me that it is quite noticeable (from behind) the difference in the way I pedal from all the rest. So I think that I got something more by forcing me to pedal all the time with PowerCranks than rather concentrating in pedalling technicque with regular cranks

 

[vadiver]

You are wrong. The "just push harder" crowd do not think technique matters. Pushing harder is all that matters. These results lend credence to the "technique matters" school. PowerCranks gave him the feedback he needed to be able to improve his technique and train new muscles. How else can this result be explained.

Perhaps you are right, a coach might have been able to do this. However, I challenge any coach anywhere to present data that is even remotely similar to this in any client they have coached without the assistance of PowerCranks. If it is so easy to accomplish these kinds of improvements should be a dime a dozen. Where are they? If they are not there I suspect these changes are not quite as easy to achieve as you seem to think they are. I suspect the silence of the coaches tells us what the answer is.

I did not say it supported it. I said

This would lend more support to the PUSH HARDER crowd than your pull up crowd.

Bold added for people who scan and not read.

Since Jalaco is applying more downward power now. That is why I say lend more support to.

Your claim is that the power comes from the pulling up power. And in this case there has been no support that the power is coming from the up stroke. Jalcao is appling force for almost 90 more degrees. That is substantial. But it is all on the down stroke.

Yes technique matters a lot. That is obvious. If a person only applys force from say 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock how good will they be?

As far as coaching goes. One thing all athleates that are on the very top of their sport (Cycling, Golf, Tennis, Rowing, Wrestling, etc.) have in common is a coach. They all may have different equipment or technique, but they all have a coach.

Support of how your product is not necessary can be seen in these few threads. I am sure there are more:

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t391584.html
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t314849.html

And if your product is so great, I chalenge you to put up the numbers (percentage) of riders who have gained this grand 40% increase compared to the number of sales (and give aways) you have.

 

[vadiver]

I just wanted to clarify something about my pedaling technoicque. As I said before I have been doing ILS long time ago. And I could succesfully pedal for about 5 minutes with a single leg. I have concentrated in pedalling technicque all my life as any amateur cyclist, but when I say I tended to pedal from 3 o'clock it doesn't mean I was not "trying" to pedal from 1 oclock, or even pedal in circles. It means that when I started using PowerCranks I realized what it really felt to pedal hard from 1 o'clock. Now my feeling of pedaling has changed even further to pedal all the way around the circumference, and I feel like I cannot stop doing that even with my regular crankset. It is something very difficuoult to describe when you have never "felt" it before. I have lent my bike to all my team mates, which are all experienced riders, and they all felt how awkward was pedalling with powercranks for more than 20 seconds. When we do our group rides they all tell me that it is quite noticeable (from behind) the difference in the way I pedal from all the rest. So I think that I got something more by forcing me to pedal all the time with PowerCranks than rather concentrating in pedalling technicque with regular cranks

All of this can be accomplished without the use of a special product.

 

[Fday]

Your claim is that the power comes from the pulling up power. And in this case there has been no support that the power is coming from the up stroke. Jalcao is appling force for almost 90 more degrees. That is substantial. But it is all on the down stroke.

Wrong again. I have said many times most people do not actually apply power by pulling up. All PC's make them do is unweight. There are many potential benefits that might come from PC's. They all boil down to more efficient use of the available muscles.

Yes technique matters a lot. That is obvious.

It is not obvious to many here

As far as coaching goes. One thing all athleates that are on the very top of their sport (Cycling, Golf, Tennis, Rowing, Wrestling, etc.) have in common is a coach. They all may have different equipment or technique, but they all have a coach.

Wrong again, there are actually a few self-coached elite athletes. Most do have coaches, but not all.

 

[vadiver]

Wrong again. I have said many times most people do not actually apply power by pulling up. All PC's make them do is unweight. There are many potential benefits that might come from PC's. They all boil down to more efficient use of the available muscles.

You are right. This is why few if any people say there is no benefit from your product. It is the 40% claim that people are calling you on.

Again, what percentage of your users have seen improvements greater than 30-40%?

It is not obvious to many here

And a lot of people think a lighter wheel is the only way to go.

But would recon that if you asked people if they should press down on the upstroke, unweight, or lift up. Few if any, would say press down.

Wrong again, there are actually a few self-coached elite athletes. Most do have coaches, but not all.

And how many are at the top of their sport? Who are they? What sport?

I would say anyone here who has applied some of the information from the "its killing me..." thread is being coached.

Out of these simple training tools rank them in order of preference.
A single product (Power meter, wheels, your product, food, etc.)
A library (any and all books and the ability to fully utilize any recomendations from the books)
A coach (the ability to fully utilize all recomendations provided from the coach)

 

[Fday]

And how many are at the top of their sport? Who are they? What sport?

Ironman World Champion Faris Al Sultan is one. Self coached and proud of it. Can't get much more on top of a sport than that.

 

[vadiver]

Wrong again. I have said many times most people do not actually apply power by pulling up. All PC's make them do is unweight. <snip>

Thinking more about this....

If all a person is doing is unweighting how do they develop stronger muscles? How are they using more mucles?

Why do we have pedals that attach our feet to them?

You really do make this stuff up as you go.

 

[vadiver]

Ironman World Champion Faris Al Sultan is one. Self coached and proud of it. Can't get much more on top of a sport than that.

That would be one, not a few. How about some more.

Out of these simple training tools rank them in order of preference.
A single product (Power meter, wheels, your product, food, etc.)
A library (any and all books and the ability to fully utilize any recomendations from the books)
A coach (the ability to fully utilize all recomendations provided from the coach)