Poor man's Powercranks? (PPC)

[Fday]

Yup - which is what makes Kautz's analysis of the cost of unloaded pedaling so important to understand.



That is your hypothesis. However, said hypothesis isn't consistent with the available data. For example, if what you claim were true, then the subjects in Coyle's group 2 (who unweighted more...some completely/all the time) would have been more efficient than the subjects in group 1. They were not, though, thus proving the saying:

"Ah, the great tragedy of science: the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by one ugly fact."

Wrong again Batman. There is more to pedaling efficiency than simply "unweighting". The direction of the applied forces is also important as is training the "unweighting" muscles equally to the pushing muscles. All that may have been seen in Coyles group two was what Coyle saw in a later study of elite cyclists where they changed their pattern of pedaling to the group two way as the load increased. So, in the first study Group two may have simply been riding at a relatively higher load than group one, explaining this difference. Efficiency may not have changed significantly because they may have needed to invoke more fast twitch fibres to do this. It is not possible to draw any conclusions regarding this from this data. Coyle didn't. But you and others keep trying.

Luttrell showed that training with PowerCranks can substantially change pedaling efficiency. Presuming this finding will be verified, then the question is, how does one explain this change? That should be the question, not denying that it is even possible.

Frank

 

[n crowley]

As it so happens, my "bias" is shared by 90%+ of exercise scientists...but anyway...

Cycling is a competitive sport which can last for hours. As a leading pyhsiologist why do you always steer clear of all topics related to cycling/pedaling injuries. The most effective TT pedaling style is also the safest while your stomping style happens to be biomechanically the most dangerous.

 

[Piotr]

So, you are wrong, spreading money over several accounts, when it comes to biological systems, can mean there is more money to work with.

Frank

Well, there's only one thing left to do. Why insist on hip flexors and hamstrings? Train an elite cyclist to ride a special bicycle that incorporates the use of both his legs AND arms (or as many different muscle groups as possible) and see if he can ride faster for the same amount of time (eg. 40K TT) than using his legs only. I'd really like to see a study like that done.

 

[Fday]

Well, there's only one thing left to do. Why insist on hip flexors and hamstrings? Train an elite cyclist to ride a special bicycle that incorporates the use of both his legs AND arms (or as many different muscle groups as possible) and see if he can ride faster for the same amount of time (eg. 40K TT) than using his legs only. I'd really like to see a study like that done.

I will leave the design of such a bicycle up to you. It would probably work (except UCI would disallow it for the purposes of records but the HPV association would accept it if you want to go for that record) because the athlete who have the highest VO2 max when tested are those who use both their upper and lower extremities, such as XC skiers and rowers.

 

[Piotr]

I will leave the design of such a bicycle up to you. It would probably work (except UCI would disallow it for the purposes of records but the HPV association would accept it if you want to go for that record) because the athlete who have the highest VO2 max when tested are those who use both their upper and lower extremities, such as XC skiers and rowers.

I want to follow-up by expressing my surprise that HPV people have not attempted it yet. Is it perhaps that they know better?. UCI aside, if what you claim is true then that experiment would have to work. It simply extends your philosophy to other muscle groups. Further, it would show that the bicycle as we know it is not the most efficient human powered vehicle.

 

[frenchyge]

Well, there's only one thing left to do. Why insist on hip flexors and hamstrings? Train an elite cyclist to ride a special bicycle that incorporates the use of both his legs AND arms (or as many different muscle groups as possible) and see if he can ride faster for the same amount of time (eg. 40K TT) than using his legs only. I'd really like to see a study like that done.

I've already done such a study. Back when I was a kid, if my legs would get really tired from riding up a big hill, then I would push on my knees with my hands and that would increase power and help me get up the hill. The downside of the study was that I only tested it by pushing down harder, not also by pulling up under my knees on the upstrokes (since they were platform pedals). Also, there was no control group and I don't know if my experiment design included provisions for that....

 

[Fday]

I want to follow-up by expressing my surprise that HPV people have not attempted it yet. Is it perhaps that they know better?. UCI aside, if what you claim is true then that experiment would have to work. It simply extends your philosophy to other muscle groups. Further, it would show that the bicycle as we know it is not the most efficient human powered vehicle.

HPV people have tried it I am quite certain. All sorts of stuff. I think the problem is the rider also has to steer the vehicle (may be difficult to do if one is using the arms for power) and get the mechanism and movement put into the most aerodynamic body possible.

 

[joaco21]

Hello,

It is just by case that I am reading this message from FDAY. And I would like to apologize for my English, since I am a Spanish cyclist. I assume that I am the Spanish customer that FDay is referring to in his message, since I am the only Spanish cyclist who rides on PowerCranks, and it happened that I had a conversation with Andrew, from PowerCranks, and I told him how impressed I was by the results. And yes it is true what FDay says. I did a VO2 Max test with a result of 83.9 ml/Kg/min, 30% above my previous result 6 months earlyer. The only thing being different in my training schedule was the use of PowerCranks almost exclusvelly for 6 months, except for racing. I continued training with them all though this winter, and now I will repeat my VO2 Max test next week. I will let you know of the results. But I can anticipate that my FT has increased from 280 Watts by March 2006 to 350 Watts last week, which is 25% increase (I have recorded all my power data since three years ago, when I bought a PowerTap). I am 38 years old and I have been riding a bike since I was 14. I have been racing since 18. I have never experienced such a big jump in performance in all my life. Currently I can pedal at cadences higher than 100 rpm with my PowerCranks, and I can climb 1st cat hills from Vuelta a España at 85 rpm, avg power 350-360 Watts. I regularly train with Spanish Pro's and top amateurs, and they are all amazed. This racing season is about to start. I will post my results.
I just wanted to say all this since I fully support what FDay is claiming. Just use (and suffer) PC for 6 months exclusivelly and you will see such big results. I know nothing about sports medicine, but there must be an explanation to this.

I agree with points 1 and 2 plus I would add that they also have the potential to change the general pattern of force application to the pedals further increasing pedaling efficiency.

Regarding point 3, the adaption period is generally over stated. People only see slowing when riding PowerCranks. Most see no detriment and some see almost immediate benefit when going back to regular cranks for racing. It seems people gain efficiency faster than they lose "training" in the "prime movers" as you refer to them. Anyhow, almost everyone who makes a concerted effort is back to regular training distances and efforts within a month to 6 weeks of getting on PC's.

I am not sure I understand your other points. Let me say this. potential energy put into the upward moving leg is recovered as kinetic energy on the downstroke whether that potential energy is put in by the upward pulling muscles or the downward pushing muscles.

So, it seems to me the key to the improvements seen by PowerCrankers comes from training more muscle mass and improving the pedal force dynamic to something much more efficient.

Because of the concerns you have expressed here many seem afraid to start them during the season. We just got an anecdotal report from someone in Spain that might put those fears to rest. Customer started them in March at beginning of season. Rode them during the week in training, raced on regular cranks during weekend. Got tested at the end of the season. The results were so amazing the doctor running the test refused to believe them and repeated it. Anyhow, he had increased his VO2 max 30% in this period.

Anyhow, I don't believe your proposal for training the HF's would work very well. Making it harder to get over the top doesn not mean you will use the HF's more. Rather, most will just compensate by simply pushing harder.

Frank

 

[Laflore]

Just outta curiosity... are there any pics available of pro's riding with PCs?

I have seen photos of PCs on bicycles, but I'd be more impressed seeing an actual pro cyclist in the act of using them.

Thx.

edit: I'm not interested in anecdotes from anonymous internet posters

 

[Fday]

Just outta curiosity... are there any pics available of pro's riding with PCs?

I have seen photos of PCs on bicycles, but I'd be more impressed seeing an actual pro cyclist in the act of using them.

Thx.

edit: I'm not interested in anecdotes from anonymous internet posters

In this thread, http://www.cyclingforums.com/t237131.html is a picture of the bike ridden by Stephano Garzelli on a rest day at the TDF a few years ago. The black tape over the name does not mean they are not PowerCrank

http://www.cyclingforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4134

Another picture is on our home page. Thia one of Magnust Bacstedt on his PuwerCranks bike.

 

[Laflore]

In this thread, http://www.cyclingforums.com/t237131.html is a picture of the bike ridden by Stephano Garzelli on a rest day at the TDF a few years ago. The black tape over the name does not mean they are not PowerCrank

http://www.cyclingforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4134

Another picture is on our home page. Thia one of Magnust Bacstedt on his PuwerCranks bike.

Sorry, I thought it was clear: "..in the act of using"

After all, I've seen lots of pics of pros out training. Assuming they spend any time at all training on PCs (beyond the initial experimenting period), I'd think there should be some photos. Thx again.

 

[Piotr]

Sorry, I thought it was clear: "..in the act of using"

After all, I've seen lots of pics of pros out training. Assuming they spend any time at all training on PCs (beyond the initial experimenting period), I'd think there should be some photos. Thx again.

You are very particular in your request, so no "pro", but I did post an article with pictures of a Cat. 1 in the act of winning a hill climb on PC's on the "Pushing\Pulling" sticky thread recently. Just FYI.

 

[Fday]

You are very particular in your request, so no "pro", but I did post an article with pictures of a Cat. 1 in the act of winning a hill climb on PC's on the "Pushing\Pulling" sticky thread recently. Just FYI.

Picky indeed.

Courtney Ogen, a Pro trathlete racing IM Canada last year on PowerCranks, fastest bike split of the day.

 

[n crowley]

I will leave the design of such a bicycle up to you. It would probably work (except UCI would disallow it for the purposes of records but the HPV association would accept it if you want to go for that record) because the athlete who have the highest VO2 max when tested are those who use both their upper and lower extremities, such as XC skiers and rowers.

This can be done and on a normal bicycle. It would not be successful if you designed a special bike with independent hand and leg cranks because this would only have the same effect as trying to use pulling up with pressing down power. It will only work when you use a seated technique that can unite the arm and leg in one power generating movement in almost the same way as rowers do but unlike rowing where leg resistance is moving, in cycling the arm resistance will be from a fixed position.

 

[Laflore]

Picky indeed.

Courtney Ogen, a Pro trathlete racing IM Canada last year on PowerCranks, fastest bike split of the day.

Ok, so no pro cyclists. Thx anyways.

 

[Fday]

Picky indeed.

Courtney Ogen, a Pro trathlete racing IM Canada last year on PowerCranks, fastest bike split of the day.

Your original request did not specify cyclists so I really did satisfy your request.

Frank

 

[Laflore]

You are very particular in your request, so no "pro", but I did post an article with pictures of a Cat. 1 in the act of winning a hill climb on PC's on the "Pushing\Pulling" sticky thread recently. Just FYI.

http://www.lagrange.org/piuma2004.htm

Still impressed?

Being a relatively poor climber myself, I'm hardly one to criticize. But I look at that results list and conclude that he came in 1st out of exactly 2 category 1 riders. Or did I miss something?

 

[Laflore]

Your original request did not specify cyclists so I really did satisfy your request.

Frank

You should have read the entire post then.

 

[Piotr]

http://www.lagrange.org/piuma2004.htm

Still impressed?

Being a relatively poor climber myself, I'm hardly one to criticize. But I look at that results list and conclude that he came in 1st out of exactly 2 category 1 riders. Or did I miss something?

I'm not sure that I was ever that impressed or I would be a PC user.

 

[Fday]

You should have read the entire post then.

My man, I did read the entire post, You simply said that you would be more impresse if it were a cyclist.

You might want to check to see how pro cyclists tend to do during the cycling portion of IM events when they compete.

But you are not impressed so be it.