Pop up seatpost

The Cam type QR isn't really designed for many hundreds of usage cycles. When it is loose the seat
has no fixed alignment with the frame, a bit of an unstable situation. And I'm supposed to open and
shut the thing again while shifting into low in three seconds while approaching a stop.

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Dale Benjamin said:

Hello, I used to ride a bit mostly around town, Continental style

bicycle.

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One thing which always bugged me was seatpost height, I thought the idea that a rider develops
more power more comfortably with a high saddle

which

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extends the leg closer to fully straight was entirely correct. But

numerous

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stops for stop lights and signs are an obligation of the more

responsible

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rider on the public streets, and then a high saddle is extremely uncomfortable because the leg
upon which one leans must be held fully extended, and the foot as well must be held straight,
that gets real uncomfortable quick, leaning at an extreme angle gives me bad cramps.

So in order to have a comfortable saddle height for possibly prolonged

stops

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in traffic and another height for comfortable riding when one doesn't

put a

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foot on the ground for a half hour at a time, why not develop a pop up seatpost? Modify a
conventional one by putting a second tube within it,

and

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a mechanism to operate a catch within the second tube ( or mostly solid

rod,

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probably ) so the catch can be retracted ( something like a bar end or thumb shifter to operate
it ) which lets the second tube move up ( under spring pressure ), or down ( under rider weight
). The catch would be spring loaded too. Maybe we can fill the old tube along the sides with
primo epoxy and shape the tube to fit, got to maintain the seat

alignment

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with the frame. Maybe it would be expeditious to fabricate both

tubes/rods.

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I don't have a metal shop in the basement, or even a basement, so I'm

not

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keeping the idea to myself in some vain hope of cashing in. There are probably dozens of ways to
implement the notion and some turkeys have a

lot

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more experience and knowhow than I, it's probably been done or tried

before

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but I'm not aware of it.

Again, the basic idea is that one starts off with the seat in the low position, and if no stops
are imminent, raises up on the seat, pushes

the

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thumb lever, and the seat, under spring pressure, rises. When the

saddle is

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high enough, one releases the thumb lever, and the seatpost latches into position.

Then, when a stop is imminent, one again rises off the seat, pushes the lever, and the seat
comes free, put some weight on it and it lowers,

when

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it's low enough release the lever and it latches, this time in a lower position.

It would be VERY nice to be able to adjust the seat height in very small increments so as to
relieve strain on long rides, but even a two

position

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with a couple inches between high and low seems like a valuable gain to

me.

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The Breeze/Angell Hite Rite system (1986?) does that. Used with a normal seatpost an seat Q/R, One
pulls teh Q/R for teh low position, the seta sinking with rider weight. To return to the high
position, undo the Q/R and unweigh the seat. Once it pops up to the tall position, just lock teh
Q/R again. All stainless. We gave them .

Designers of the era like Angel Rodriguez built frames with seatlug castings incorporating the
HiteRite mounts and a forward-facing slit and seatpost binder ears so teh Q/R woudl be mor easily
reached.

Is this ancient history already?

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I tried that, but the maximum saddle height compatible with comfortable and safe remounting is still
far less than what is required to fully extend the legs and feet while riding.

I, and maybe a lot of us, are not very acrobatically inclined, or even halfway serious athletes. But
anyone who has tried various heights for the seat will likely agree that the higher is better for
comfortably delivering more power to the pedals. Try walking a short distance without fully
extending your legs and feet, keeping the knees bent.

We learned to regard cycling as an activity quite different from walking or running, but most of us
have spent a very much greater amount of time walking and running than cycling, so our muscles are
thus conditioned to work more effectively with the legs and feet fully extended.

Developing a seatpost rig which can accomodate these conflicting demands via a few inches of
extendability will go far to improve the cycling experience for many people. It must be reliable and
long lasting.

It must be easily operable without removing the hands from the bars, a rider is already busy enough
shifting into low from front high rear 6th in the two seconds since the need for a stop became
apparent. Sure, we can skip the gear shifts if need be, but we GOT to be able to remain erect on the
cycle, that means we GOT to be able to put the seatpost into the low position. Or ELSE we fall over.
Cam type Quick Releases are OUT, opening and closing one beneath the seat in two seconds seems like
rather a difficult task.

I would imagine a spring loaded retractable pin is what is needed. It is mounted upon the outer
tube, when the cable is pulled, it retracts entirely within the housing tube. The outer tube has one
set of holes drilled through it, and the inner tube has two sets, a high and a low. The outer tube
has a bottom and a top, beyond which the inner cannot move. The seat is mounted upon the inner tube,
and the outer tube is mounted in the frame. Release the lever, and the spring in the housing tube
drives the pin through the outer tube near hole and through the inner tube holes, and the further
outer housing hole, and the seat tube latches into place. It has to be a kind of strong spring in
the housing to move the pin fast, and it has to move an inch between full retraction and extension.
Tolerances will have to be precise. A spring must be provided to drive the inner tube upward. The
inner and outer tubes must be keyed, or non circular, to prevent any seat and frame misalignment.
All material used must be very hard or else flexible because pedaling can get strenuous.

Looking at the full stop problem from another angle, it might be feasible to develop a sort of
balance assist device. Legs might extend from a seat tube mounted contraption on both sides to
contact the pavement beneath and thus hold the bicycle erect when the switch is pushed. Each leg
would extend only far enough to make firm contact, then hold. Kind of like retractable training
wheels, push the button again and they retract. A very small computer might control hydraulic pumps
which extend or retract the legs to compensate for the rider's imperfect balance and hold the
assembly upright in response to pressure sensors mounted on both sides. Might take some formidable
NiMH cells to drive those pump motors fast enough, but the computer electronics is on the shelf.

Naaahhh, I think I'll try the extendable seatpost thing first. Or I could develop a set of exercises
to loosen up my crampy muscles.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

But numerous stops for stop lights and signs are an obligation of the more

responsible

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rider on the public streets, and then a high saddle is extremely uncomfortable because the leg
upon which one leans must be held fully extended, and the foot as well must be held straight,
that gets real uncomfortable quick, leaning at an extreme angle gives me bad cramps.

Umm, slide your butt forward, so that you are not sitting on the saddle, then it is much easier to
stand on one leg, keeping the other foot in the pedal.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front

of

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_`\(,_ | enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of

them

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(_)/ (_) | would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

Dale Benjamin said:

Interesting, but how is it operated? I already have my hands full shifting the chainring and the
cassette to low when approaching a stop,

Here I'm starting to see part of the problem. Although many of us drop a gear or two on approaching
a stop, there's no need to shift into a tiny gear and then repeatedly shift as one pulls away (like
a trucker, as Brandt puts it); and shifting fore _and_ aft is complete overkill.

In particular, the reason this is bad for you is that, because you shift down into such a teeny-tiny
gear, the first pedal stroke does not then provide sufficient resistance to let you push yourself up
into the saddle.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Dale Benjamin said:

The gravitydropper unit might fill the bill, I don't know. Too much money, $250, jeeesch. And 14"
long, I wonder what would be the minimum height over the frame seat tube. How do they prevent the
inner tube from rotating within the outer, or is that up to the rider? I reckon CNC alloy is
primo, but wonder about the longevity, how many usage cycles to expect?

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't conjure up enough French to make heads or tails of the
second URL.

On the french site there is a button or something spelled "Animation". It just so happens to be the
same word that is also spelled "animation" in english 😉

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Not a troll. I can get back up on a high seat, but check it out, guy. Try walking a few hundred
yards without once fully extending your legs or feet, keep your knees bent. We do not need any
further studies to establish that power to the pedal is most effectively and comfortably delivered
from a very high seat position. Unfortunately, such a high seat position presents a degree of
difficulty to non-acrobatic riders to mount and dismount.

Nice to hear from you.

"SMMB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dale Benjamin" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Hi,

"Bruce" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Other things you can do: get off the saddle when you stop

Still have to get back up, not the easiest thing with a very high seat. Staying on the saddle is
supposed to reduce traffic delays.

No, I can't believe this. Has to be a troll. You can't dismount and

mount

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? This is another reason, I'll bet, the remote control for the TV came about. CD changers,
replacing players. And, of course, Lazy Boy recliners.....
--

Bonne route,

Sandy Paris FR

I wonder if the mechanism is really designed to deliver very many cycles of operation or can
withstand the rigors of pedalling.

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Werehatrack said:

mechanism in existence that would probably fit the bill, and could likely be adapted to bikes
with little re-engineering. The adjustable-height pressurized cylinder system from an office task
chair does pretty much what you're looking for. Some of them have an OD of about an inch on the
cylinder itself. I haven't closely

This would also double as a suspension seatpost, if not modified to lock in place. Cool.

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examined the latching mechanism, but perhaps an interested person might take the time to see if
there's an opportunity here.

The gears are turning in my head, and it hurts. Stop the gears! Arrgh!
--
Rick Onanian

I don't know if the thing will actually extend or reduce the distance between the seat and the the
pedal crank. What does it cost?

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

The gravitydropper unit might fill the bill, I don't know. Too much money, $250, jeeesch. And
14" long, I wonder what would be the minimum height over the frame seat tube. How do they
prevent the inner tube from rotating within the outer, or is that up to the rider? I reckon CNC
alloy is primo, but wonder about the longevity, how many usage cycles to expect?

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't conjure up enough French to make heads or tails of the
second URL.

On the french site there is a button or something spelled "Animation". It just so happens to be
the same word that is also spelled "animation" in english 😉

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

RE/

Quoted message said:

gear or two on approaching a stop, there's no need to shift into a tiny gear and then repeatedly
shift as one pulls away (like a trucker, as Brandt puts it); and shifting fore _and_ aft is
complete overkill.

In particular, the reason this is bad for you is that, because you shift down into such a teeny-
tiny gear, the first pedal stroke does not then

One word: "Rohloff"
--
PeteCresswell

True to some extent, but beside the point of my original post in this thread, which is that a very
high seat position enables the rider to comfortably deliver full power to the pedals, but is
extremely difficult to hold at a full stop, a pop-up seatpost might be some help.

I ride a 28 40 52 chainwheel set, and a 13 - 26 cassette, the cassette is rather too low for an
optimum start in most cases, but does cover some mild hills.

Ordinarilly I start off with 40 x 26 and go from there, a 40 x 24 would be preferable. But they cost
money and the spelling is often poor, so I don't go.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

Interesting, but how is it operated? I already have my hands full

shifting

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Quoted message said:

the chainring and the cassette to low when approaching a stop,

Here I'm starting to see part of the problem. Although many of us drop a gear or two on
approaching a stop, there's no need to shift into a tiny gear and then repeatedly shift as one
pulls away (like a trucker, as Brandt puts it); and shifting fore _and_ aft is complete overkill.

In particular, the reason this is bad for you is that, because you shift down into such a teeny-
tiny gear, the first pedal stroke does not then provide sufficient resistance to let you push
yourself up into the saddle.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Dale Benjamin said:

I tried that, but the maximum saddle height compatible with comfortable and safe remounting is
still far less than what is required to fully extend the legs and feet while riding.

This is the error. Almost everyone here remounts comfortably and safely with the saddle correectly
mounted for riding.

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serious athletes. But anyone who has tried various heights for the seat will likely agree that the
higher is better for comfortably delivering more power to the pedals.

This is not contentious.

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Developing a seatpost rig which can accomodate these conflicting demands via a few inches of
extendability will go far to improve the cycling experience for many people.

Not really, no. Even the elderly and inflexible quickly become accustomed to remounting.

You've got a solution in search of a problem.

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It must be easily operable without removing the hands from the bars, a rider is already busy enough
shifting into low from front high rear 6th in the two seconds since the need for a stop became
apparent.

I reiterate that double shifts upon stopping are overkill, and appear to be the source of
your problems.

Quoted message said:

Looking at the full stop problem from another angle, it might be feasible to develop a sort of
balance assist device. Legs might extend from a seat tube mounted contraption on both sides to
contact the pavement beneath and thus hold the bicycle erect when the switch is pushed.

Inadvertently press the switch when riding along, what happens?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dale Benjamin said:

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Find an old Hite-Rite, which were popular in the 80s for MTBs.

When it is loose the seat has no fixed alignment with the frame, a bit of an unstable situation.

The Hite-rite keeps the seat aligned. Its purpose was to let you lower your seat for descents then
pop it back up for normal riding.

I used to have one on my mtb in the 80s but hardly ever used it.

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And I'm supposed to open and shut the thing again while shifting into low in three seconds while
approaching a stop.

Whats so hard about getting off the saddle at each stop?

BTW, if you used a gear higher than 40x26 to start with you'd have an easier time getting going and
wouldn't need to be in the saddle to start. There's no rule saying that you need to start off in the
largest cog. I usually use a 39x19 or 39x17 at stops and start off standing up until I get the gear
going, then shift up to whatever's appropriate. Starting off in an appropriate gear also helps you
stay with traffic (i.e for left turns).

Eric

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dale Benjamin said:

Not a troll. I can get back up on a high seat, but check it out, guy. Try walking a few hundred
yards without once fully extending your legs or feet, keep your knees bent.

Of course no-one is disputing that a high saddle position is best for riding, so there is little
point in arguing that.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Dale Benjamin said:

True to some extent, but beside the point of my original post in this thread, which is that a very
high seat position enables the rider to comfortably deliver full power to the pedals, but is
extremely difficult to hold at a full stop, a pop-up seatpost might be some help.

But this is a non-problem, because it is not necessary to remain perched on the saddle at stops.

Quoted message said:

I ride a 28 40 52 chainwheel set, and a 13 - 26 cassette, the cassette is rather too low for an
optimum start in most cases, but does cover some mild hills.

Er, uphill it is not any more necessary to whack the gears about when starting off, because your
cruising gear will be proportionately lower.

You will find it much easier to start more swiftly if you are lifting your weight onto the saddle,
and hence can apply high pressure on the first pedal stroke.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

On 14 Jan 2004 15:38:00 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell

may have said:

I reiterate that double shifts upon stopping are overkill, and appear to be the source of your
problems.

In those cases where I must stop too quickly to downshift first, I usually find that it's not at
all difficult to lift the rear and spin the crank while accomplishing the downshift that I didn't
have time for while stopping. Of course, if I was on a grocery run with loaded panniers, this
would not be the case, but in that instance I'd probably still be ain a low enough gear to make
the point moot.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sorry my french isn't good enough either.

Dale Benjamin said:

I don't know if the thing will actually extend or reduce the distance between the seat and the the
pedal crank. What does it cost?

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

The gravitydropper unit might fill the bill, I don't know. Too much money, $250, jeeesch. And
14" long, I wonder what would be the minimum height over the frame seat tube. How do they
prevent the inner tube from rotating within the outer, or is that up to the rider? I reckon CNC
alloy is primo, but wonder about the longevity, how many usage cycles to expect?

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't conjure up enough French to make heads or tails of the
second URL.

On the french site there is a button or something spelled "Animation". It just so happens to be
the same word that is also spelled "animation" in english 😉

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Dale Benjamin said:

Reaching down under the seat and working a cam type QR as I approach each of fifty stops in an
hour's ride isn't going to work. And I doubt the QR will last through many hundred cycles.

I made the Hite Rite suggestion in humor. What you are asking of a hardware solution involves
complexity and probably ungraceful movements while riding.

That's why most riders just leave one foot in the pedal and step forward to the pavement with the
other - that is, when we are not poised in mid air on our other bike with fixed gear.

And just as the neurotically-super-high-mileage car drivers*, try adjusting your speed to the
lights, so you don't have to actually stop sometimes.

*we all know some [censored] who claims 82mpg, coasts whenever possible, seldom uses the brake.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dale Benjamin said:

The Cam type QR isn't really designed for many hundreds of usage cycles. When it is loose the seat
has no fixed alignment with the frame, a bit of an unstable situation. And I'm supposed to open
and shut the thing again while shifting into low in three seconds while approaching a stop.

Nothing in a steel Q/R will wear noticeably in hundreds of iterations with even minimal lubrication.
Hite Rites do indeed center the saddle to the frame.

Shift for a stop sign?? Why bother? Humans work well over a wide range of torques. Try not shifting
so much. We fixed riders seem to get to work on time without shifting at all.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dale Benjamin said:

Not a troll. I can get back up on a high seat, but check it out, guy. Try walking a few hundred
yards without once fully extending your legs or feet, keep your knees bent. We do not need any
further studies to establish that power to the pedal is most effectively and comfortably delivered
from a very high seat position. Unfortunately, such a high seat position presents a degree of
difficulty to non-acrobatic riders to mount and dismount.

That is just not true. Spend a little while watching riders at a stoplight after work some evening.
You'll see no acrobatics as they each step down with one foot and then proceed gracefully. I'm
talking your average desk jockey here, not professional athletes. It just has not been a problem.
And it hasn't been a problem for a hundred years.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

RE/ gear or two on approaching a stop, there's no need to shift into a tiny gear and then
repeatedly shift as one pulls away (like a trucker, as Brandt puts it); and shifting fore _and_
aft is complete overkill. In particular, the reason this is bad for you is that, because you shift
down into such a teeny-tiny gear, the first pedal stroke does not then

(Pete Cresswell) said:

One word: "Rohloff"

Which makes it smoother but no more necessary

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dale Benjamin said:

True to some extent, but beside the point of my original post in this thread, which is that a very
high seat position enables the rider to comfortably deliver full power to the pedals, but is
extremely difficult to hold at a full stop, a pop-up seatpost might be some help.

I ride a 28 40 52 chainwheel set, and a 13 - 26 cassette, the cassette is rather too low for an
optimum start in most cases, but does cover some mild hills.

Ordinarilly I start off with 40 x 26 and go from there, a 40 x 24 would be preferable. But they
cost money and the spelling is often poor, so I don't go.

Poor spelling leads you to be dissatisfied enough with cycling as to install a whacky seatpost?

YGTBSM!

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971