Positioning compromises.



Claes

New Member
Jul 5, 2004
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Hi, I am not starting a new war or anything, just want you thoughts on something I am thinking of.

Basically I find that the compromise in your horisontal position, that is saddle for or aft, lenght of effective top tube and your stem, and the height of your handle bars, has big effect on your cycling.
If I would sit really far back, with a short stem, I find, for me, that messes up my standing climbing. I need the handlebars quite far forward when I stand up, so that sort of means I can not sit very far back, if I wanted to. I sit a bit more forward, with a longer stem so to speak, to create room for me standing up. I have my handlebars quite low, and that might add to the need to have them further forward when standing up, since I can not stand "straight up" so to speak. Maybe my lanky 188 cm adds to this, 6'2 for you oldies. :)

I read, on a pretty down to earth website, that you can basically measure if your are sitting too far forward with just judging how much pressure you have on your hands when you sit and cycle. For good hand comfort, it means that you should be able to take your hands off the bars and not feel that you fall forward too much, if you do move the seat back. I pretty much do a face plant when I do that. :) So I should then, for more comfort, sit further back, but that means that my standing up goes off. He he, confusion rules here. :)
Anyway, just some stuff that is going through my head at the moment, if someone else has thoughts post away. But this is no dogma think, better this fit, worse that fit, kenndy here someone else there. :)
 
Claes said:
I read, on a pretty down to earth website, that you can basically measure if your are sitting too far forward with just judging how much pressure you have on your hands when you sit and cycle. For good hand comfort, it means that you should be able to take your hands off the bars and not feel that you fall forward too much, if you do move the seat back.

I am not sure if the seat's forward or backward postions will effect this though.I think you will have this effect if the seat's tilted up or down.

As to your predicament,I think the Fi'zi:k Arione with its extra long seat may help your situation.
 
giantbike said:
I am not sure if the seat's forward or backward postions will effect this though.I think you will have this effect if the seat's tilted up or down.

As to your predicament,I think the Fi'zi:k Arione with its extra long seat may help your situation.
Well, the fizik is nice but no fit on my seatpost unfortunately.
Happy with the saddle I have, but I was more interested in the compomise, how far back can you sit, IE using short stem, and still have a good position when standing up. See what I mean?
 
Claes said:
but I was more interested in the compomise, how far back can you sit, IE using short stem, and still have a good position when standing up. See what I mean?
Let's have the to&fro discussion after some "ex-spurts" comment....*roll eyes*,
firstly a suggestion,........ send the original post to Cyclingforums.com for their Q&A panel comment .....then we can dissect it and, perhaps finally see that we all should be riding recumbants instead! :)

(just imagining plowing into peak hour traffic, taking aim at errant cab doors with that lethal chainwheel out front, pedestrians scampering out of the way and great respect from car-door openers 'cos their knees, hands, arms are the first things to be chopped off...revenge by the layback champions of cycling fringe...yay!!!)
 
rooman said:
Let's have the to&fro discussion after some "ex-spurts" comment....*roll eyes*,
firstly a suggestion,........ send the original post to Cyclingforums.com for their Q&A panel comment .....then we can dissect it and, perhaps finally see that we all should be riding recumbants instead! :)

(just imagining plowing into peak hour traffic, taking aim at errant cab doors with that lethal chainwheel out front, pedestrians scampering out of the way and great respect from car-door openers 'cos their knees, hands, arms are the first things to be chopped off...revenge by the layback champions of cycling fringe...yay!!!)
I do not get what you mean with this post. Care to explain so a non native english speaker understands what you mean?
 
Claes said:
I do not get what you mean with this post. Care to explain so a non native english speaker understands what you mean?
think about it Claes!.......we need some fresh ammo to dissect.....the seating/position compromise has been hashed a lot lately, so if we get the guys who are regulars at constructive suggestions on fit, fitness, diet, and all that offering a solution to the original post, maybe we will all be much more enlightened and much sooner than us having endless posts that eventually go round in sufficiently ever decreasing circles they dissapear up someone's unsuspecting "rear dropout"( pardon me).
And if we ride recumbants ( according to a recent chat from a recumbanty(?)
we wouldnt need to think about such a compromise, because we are on our backs relaxing & riding along with our feet out front grinding a huge chainwheel as our first line of attack and defence.....(and theoretically , so I'm told, they are faster than upright bikes, thats why UCI banned them from its events......)
 
rooman said:
think about it Claes!.......we need some fresh ammo to dissect.....the seating/position compromise has been hashed a lot lately, so if we get the guys who are regulars at constructive suggestions on fit, fitness, diet, and all that offering a solution to the original post, maybe we will all be much more enlightened and much sooner than us having endless posts that eventually go round in sufficiently ever decreasing circles they dissapear up someone's unsuspecting "rear dropout"( pardon me).
And if we ride recumbants ( according to a recent chat from a recumbanty(?)
we wouldnt need to think about such a compromise, because we are on our backs relaxing & riding along with our feet out front grinding a huge chainwheel as our first line of attack and defence.....(and theoretically , so I'm told, they are faster than upright bikes, thats why UCI banned them from its events......)
Well, I am not asking about fore or after, more that compromise in relation to how you do when you stand up cycling. Right? Not any shite about more power or this or that, just what I stated. I have not see that debate, I only look in this section of the forum, can not stand the shite that mainly Yanks post about carrying guns while you ride your bike in other sections. So, I could have missed it for sure.
 
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:51:12 +1000, Claes wrote:

> Basically I find that the compromise in your horisontal position, that
> is saddle for or aft, lenght of effective top tube and your stem, and
> the height of your handle bars, has big effect on your cycling.
> If I would sit really far back, with a short stem, I find, for me, that
> messes up my standing climbing. I need the handlebars quite far forward
> when I stand up, so that sort of means I can not sit very far back, if
> I wanted to. I sit a bit more forward, with a longer stem so to speak,
> to create room for me standing up. I have my handlebars quite low, and
> that might add to the need to have them further forward when standing
> up, since I can not stand "straight up" so to speak. Maybe my lanky 188
> cm adds to this, 6'2 for you oldies. :)


I wouldn't worry about making standing more comfortable - it's not
something you should be doing for much of a ride. It's good for
quick acceleration, relieving back muscles and breaking the monotony
of a climb, but it's inherently inefficient, so compromising your seated
position to make it more comfortable isn't helping you overall.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
 
Claes said:
So I should then, for more comfort, sit further back, but that means that my standing up goes off. He he, confusion rules here. :)
Anyway, just some stuff that is going through my head at the moment, :)
Hi Claes, send your post to these guys, then share your response as a thread
[email protected] , they will probably reply direct or we'll see their advices later in the week on Cyclingnews.coms Form&Fitness Q&A section..keen to see what they say...then we can all join in:)
cheers Roo
 
Michael Warner said:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:51:12 +1000, Claes wrote:

> Basically I find that the compromise in your horisontal position, that
> is saddle for or aft, lenght of effective top tube and your stem, and
> the height of your handle bars, has big effect on your cycling.
> If I would sit really far back, with a short stem, I find, for me, that
> messes up my standing climbing. I need the handlebars quite far forward
> when I stand up, so that sort of means I can not sit very far back, if
> I wanted to. I sit a bit more forward, with a longer stem so to speak,
> to create room for me standing up. I have my handlebars quite low, and
> that might add to the need to have them further forward when standing
> up, since I can not stand "straight up" so to speak. Maybe my lanky 188
> cm adds to this, 6'2 for you oldies. :)


I wouldn't worry about making standing more comfortable - it's not
something you should be doing for much of a ride. It's good for
quick acceleration, relieving back muscles and breaking the monotony
of a climb, but it's inherently inefficient, so compromising your seated
position to make it more comfortable isn't helping you overall.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
Mmm, I agree with you on that one, but you also get more aero as you go forward, since you can get your back more level with the ground, IF you neck can handle it. Thanx for your input.
 
rooman said:
Hi Claes, send your post to these guys, then share your response as a thread
[email protected] , they will probably reply direct or we'll see their advices later in the week on Cyclingnews.coms Form&Fitness Q&A section..keen to see what they say...then we can all join in:)
cheers Roo
It is not a serious issue for me or anything, just some thoughts I have.
Thanx anyway.
 
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:33:27 +1000, Claes wrote:

> Mmm, I agree with you on that one, but you also get more aero as you go
> forward, since you can get your back more level with the ground, IF you
> neck can handle it.


Yes, but that also puts more strain on your back and hamstrings when
you're climbing seated, making you want to stand more to relieve the
tension, negating any benefit . My bars are quite low, too, but I only get
a sore back when I do long climbs.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
 
Michael Warner said:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:33:27 +1000, Claes wrote:

> Mmm, I agree with you on that one, but you also get more aero as you go
> forward, since you can get your back more level with the ground, IF you
> neck can handle it.


Yes, but that also puts more strain on your back and hamstrings when
you're climbing seated, making you want to stand more to relieve the
tension, negating any benefit . My bars are quite low, too, but I only get
a sore back when I do long climbs.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
Hmm, now I am not sure I understand, why would it create more strain on your back and hamstrings? If you adjust the bars accordingly, when moving forward, the angle between your body and legs so to speak is the same? Maybe I am thick here. :)
 
rooman said:
there is a good page on Road Bike climbing techniques here:

http://www.bicyclesource.com/you/road/road-climbing.shtml

roo
Thanx, that is some good advice, according to that I am resonably right then, I really try to spin, and sit alot. I find I mess myself up really quick when I stand. I only stand when it is so steep that I can not sit with 39/25 which does not happen often. Well, I relieve my **** a bit now and then though too. :)
 
rooman said:
there is a good page on Road Bike climbing techniques here:

http://www.bicyclesource.com/you/road/road-climbing.shtml

roo
and this from HarvardU, pretty close to your question regarding leaning forward, hunched back and getting low.... cheers

"http://hcs.harvard.edu/~huca/training_skills_hillclimb.htm
Hill Climbing with Raj Krishnan
When climbing out of the saddle, get your body vertical, not horizontal. Keep the breathing passage wide open (hard to do when you are hunched over your bars) and get your pelvis over the bottom bracket.
There are many theories on standing vs. sitting on a climb. In training, I like to sit and build strength by using a bigger gear than necessary, but in racing, I try to vary my approach to climbing and will do anything possible to get over a climb. Case in point - in a race last year, as we got to the top of a particularly awful pass, I was in my lowest gear and running out of steam. Instead of struggling in the saddle, I stood up (without going up a gear), relieved my hamstrings of their duties for a while, and maintained contact. A good rule of thumb is to go up a gear when standing out of the saddle, but there are those times that you just have to stand up to take a break (critical for longer climbs
Climbing in the drops worked for Pantani and for uphill sprints. Although this is a personal preference thing, I like the idea of keeping the breathing passage open (i.e. back straight, not bent) and getting good leverage on the bars. That said, getting down on the drops for an uphill sprint or surge is remarkably effective for short bursts of power. It really does make a difference by getting you right over the pedals.
Don't forget that while climbing hills on a bike is intrinsically difficult and unpleasant, doing it over and over again will get you comfortable with discomfort. While most of our races are rarely won on a climb, many of them are lost on a climb, so train accordingly, and embrace the pain"
 
rooman said:
and this from HarvardU, pretty close to your question regarding leaning forward, hunched back and getting low.... cheers

"http://hcs.harvard.edu/~huca/training_skills_hillclimb.htm
Hill Climbing with Raj Krishnan
When climbing out of the saddle, get your body vertical, not horizontal. Keep the breathing passage wide open (hard to do when you are hunched over your bars) and get your pelvis over the bottom bracket.
There are many theories on standing vs. sitting on a climb. In training, I like to sit and build strength by using a bigger gear than necessary, but in racing, I try to vary my approach to climbing and will do anything possible to get over a climb. Case in point - in a race last year, as we got to the top of a particularly awful pass, I was in my lowest gear and running out of steam. Instead of struggling in the saddle, I stood up (without going up a gear), relieved my hamstrings of their duties for a while, and maintained contact. A good rule of thumb is to go up a gear when standing out of the saddle, but there are those times that you just have to stand up to take a break (critical for longer climbs
Climbing in the drops worked for Pantani and for uphill sprints. Although this is a personal preference thing, I like the idea of keeping the breathing passage open (i.e. back straight, not bent) and getting good leverage on the bars. That said, getting down on the drops for an uphill sprint or surge is remarkably effective for short bursts of power. It really does make a difference by getting you right over the pedals.
Don't forget that while climbing hills on a bike is intrinsically difficult and unpleasant, doing it over and over again will get you comfortable with discomfort. While most of our races are rarely won on a climb, many of them are lost on a climb, so train accordingly, and embrace the pain"

Interesting stuff, but I am fekking lanky, and I find that with the bars lowish, they are low for standing cycling. Perhaps it is just me being out of the saddle too little and just needs to get used to it. :) Also, your standing cycling improves with the bars further forward so your have more reach. This sort of impacts your fore aft position, since that has to work too. :)
 
Claes said:
Interesting stuff, but I am fekking lanky, and I find that with the bars lowish, they are low for standing cycling. Perhaps it is just me being out of the saddle too little and just needs to get used to it. :) Also, your standing cycling improves with the bars further forward so your have more reach. This sort of impacts your fore aft position, since that has to work too. :)
I'm 189cm, I try and do most of my climbing in the saddle, and I vary the load by using the pressure on 10 downstrokes, then relief for the next ten pulling back with my calves andahmmstrings at the bottom and basically tugging the pedal back to the top of the stroke, this evens the load across my thighs, calves and hammstrings...when I do stand it is either for that hard push needed to accelerate a bit more and I want to go up a gear for that then have some momentum when I sit back and change back down if needed....My position over the bars when standing is quite vertical, I never see the need to lean heavily forward unless sprinting, and that is just for a short time from 15-30 seconds.....excess leaning forward places too much pressure on the wrists and if for too long subsequent hand numbness results, so I avoid long forward leaning, it isnt productive to my pedal stroke anyway...I am more powerful sitting back, using my engine seated.

Essentially it is all a trial and error thing that you have to work on to find your optimum, based on your physiology, biomechanics , flexibility and fitness.

Long slow miles, repeated climbing sessions and core strength and flexibility all have to be in your training program for any competitive success, whether it be just in your bunch ride group sessions, in club races or at elite level....there is no substitute for trainingwork, smarts , flexibility and a good power to weight ratio!

great riding-enjoy life-ride to ride

cheers

Roo