Pound Attacks Landis and USADA
- Thread starter nns1400
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That current WADA rules (or contempt for them) would be a model for anything is downright scary. Instead of the rule of law he has imposed the rule of ****.Deli said:
He needs the boot!
I still think he has a point. Certain counties sporting federations and law makers turn a blind eye to doping. Again this morning reported in the London Times blood doping equipment was found at the European Athletic Championships. Pound does go on but he does make some good points - Some countries, primarily the US, don't take doping seriously. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7713-2313075,00.html)allegroman said:
All the more reason for WADA to be led by someone who is rational, disciplined, tough as nails but with a diplomatic demeanor. Having worked either in or with international governmental agencies for more than 20 years, I can safely say that this sort of BS would have been his undoing anywhere else. That we tolerate it in sports reflects poorly on the sports community and I think supports your argument that many national governments don't take this whole effort seriously.
Only 15 governments have signed the UNESCO anti-doping treaty and I just don't think Pound is the one to give the movement critical mass at an international level. Hopefully, someone with more substantive regulatory agency experience (to bring more credibility with national governments) will take over sooner rather than later. Otherwise, challenges to the legitimacy/role of WADA will only continue to mount as Pound is unable to manage himself or his agency in a professional manner.
Only 15 governments have signed the UNESCO anti-doping treaty and I just don't think Pound is the one to give the movement critical mass at an international level. Hopefully, someone with more substantive regulatory agency experience (to bring more credibility with national governments) will take over sooner rather than later. Otherwise, challenges to the legitimacy/role of WADA will only continue to mount as Pound is unable to manage himself or his agency in a professional manner.
whiteboytrash said:
Agreed. Further to the article above it suggests that Pound like Marion Jones hangs around "undesirables". However Jones is able to chose who she hangs around with. Choosing drug cheats for boyfriends and drug peddlers for coaches is not such a good idea for her own credibility and opens her up for attack. Pound on the other hand has to work with the other members of the IOC. He does not get to choose his colleagues.
From your point below agreed Pound hardly behaves in a credible fashion for doping organisations in each country to sign up to his mantra. However the statistics speak for themselves. The US have had a litany of doping cases through the 80's, 90's and now the 2000's. His rants are his total and utter frustration at the lack of buy in from the sporting agencies and the US government.
From your point below agreed Pound hardly behaves in a credible fashion for doping organisations in each country to sign up to his mantra. However the statistics speak for themselves. The US have had a litany of doping cases through the 80's, 90's and now the 2000's. His rants are his total and utter frustration at the lack of buy in from the sporting agencies and the US government.
allegroman said:
From your point below agreed Pound hardly behaves in a credible fashion for doping organisations in each country to sign up to his mantra. However the statistics speak for themselves. The US have had a litany of doping cases through the 80's, 90's and now the 2000's. His rants are his total and utter frustration at the lack of buy in from the sporting agencies and the US government. [/QUOTE]
His rants are because he is immature and enjoys being in the press. Allegroman is right...no one could ever behave this way in any other sort of organization. Would you hire him? No one is disagreeing here about the doping problem; the point is that this man makes all of it even more of a circus!
To go back to the original article that I posted (not the 2004 one):
In Pound's column, he says the answer to the issue of doping in cycling, "lies in the formula established by the World Anti-Doping Agency". Working with governments on "all five continents", it would appear that Pound sees a greatly enhanced role for WADA and its signatory agencies in the future; one where the scientific specialists acquire the power of law enforcement agencies.
"Sports authorities have no power to seize evidence, to compel people to provide evidence and to enforce trafficking rules. Possession and use of most doping substances without medical prescriptions are already illegal (as in Canada), so the combination of the sport and public authorities provides a means to get at the full range of the evidence needed to stop doping," Pound wrote.
Sorry, but **** Pound is not someone a rational person would feel comfortable giving "the power of law enforcement agencies." He is better suited for talk radio, not working with the international community.
His rants are because he is immature and enjoys being in the press. Allegroman is right...no one could ever behave this way in any other sort of organization. Would you hire him? No one is disagreeing here about the doping problem; the point is that this man makes all of it even more of a circus!
To go back to the original article that I posted (not the 2004 one):
In Pound's column, he says the answer to the issue of doping in cycling, "lies in the formula established by the World Anti-Doping Agency". Working with governments on "all five continents", it would appear that Pound sees a greatly enhanced role for WADA and its signatory agencies in the future; one where the scientific specialists acquire the power of law enforcement agencies.
"Sports authorities have no power to seize evidence, to compel people to provide evidence and to enforce trafficking rules. Possession and use of most doping substances without medical prescriptions are already illegal (as in Canada), so the combination of the sport and public authorities provides a means to get at the full range of the evidence needed to stop doping," Pound wrote.
Sorry, but **** Pound is not someone a rational person would feel comfortable giving "the power of law enforcement agencies." He is better suited for talk radio, not working with the international community.
No one else could behave this way ? Are you serious ? The US government is one ! The British government is another, ENRON is one more and I'll add WorldCom to that pile, along with Bill Gates (monopoly), Steve Jobs (share dealing scam), Rupert Murdoch (owns 90% of US media) and countless others who behave anyway they please to meet their own needs and end goal. **** Pound is no different that Colin Powell or George Bush presenting evidence to the UN that Iraq was a clear and present danger because they had WMD and were going to use them on US citizens. Give me a break ! **** Pound is a hell of lot harmless than those nutjobs ! At least Pound tells the truth !nns1400 said:
One point to add is that Landis has put 30 guys out of a job and ruined the career of younger cyclists. He wasn't only hurting himself but he has torched the livelihoods of 30 others. Now tell me who's worse ? Pound or Landis ? I rest my case.
How much caffeine have had today?! I am talking about bombast, not policy. You seem to be in the same camp as Pound today, since you prefer the former. I am talking about his ranting and raving that destroys his credibility. I have not noticed Bill Gates or Tony Blair or any of the other people in your axe-grinding list making such ridiculous and pompous statements, repeatedly, to the media. Go out for a ride or something so the rest of us can talk about cycling.whiteboytrash said:
BTW, Phonak has torched the livelihoods of their riders. They are the dirtiest team, and *gasp*, they aren't even American!!! I for one would like to finally hear what really goes on behind the scenes on these teams about who is responsible for all the doping. I wish Landis or someone would talk, because to heap all the blame (and punishment) on the riders only is unfair and counterproductive. Perhaps with teams losing sponsors, etc., and more people besides the rider being affected and punished, teams will finally stop doping.
Thanks for not mentioning George Bush in the above group.....nns1400 said:
"The best way to relieve families from time is to let them keep some of their own money."
"Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it."
"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
nns1400 said:
Right on the money. Phonak has a reputation for being a dirty team, and has earned it. One rider might sneak something past the DS. If several riders are being caught, the doping is probably organized at a higher level. One can almost hear some unnamed higher up, whispering in Floyd's ear the night before stage 17 - it's your last chance, do it for the team, all traces will be gone by the end of the day. Wouldn't be surprised if it was Rihs doing the talking - as he is now blaming Floyd while ignoring four years of doping for which he bears at least some personal responsibility.
Sad thing is - WADA is needed more than ever, right now. However, if it is to fulfill the goals for which it was created, it needs to convince sports in general that it is a competent and impartial organization. It cannot do this when it's leader spouts off accusations without evidence, becomes so wrapped up in a personal vendetta that he ignores a rising blood doping problem, and uses a position of responsibility for personal advancement.
Part of the problem is that the penalty system for getting caught is focused solely on the athlete. Your A and B sample test positive, you're banned for 2 years. Whooopee!!!JohnO said:
The fact of the matter is, it's never just the athlete that's involved. It's not like you walk over to your local pharmacy, purchase some testosterone, EPO or HGH... take two tablets with food and call your DS in the morning. Dopers are fully managed by doctors, coaches, scientists etc... You have to know wtf you're doing. You have to have a supplier... access to a lab... and all this costs $$$. Doping is expensive. Makes you wonder when you see team budgets of $10 Million plus...
If Allen Lim is indeed Floyd's doctor and if Robbie Ventura is indeed Floyd's coach, they should very damn well know what's in Floyd's system. Which means, they've got some splainin to do as well. Yet we don't hear or read any news articles about either of them being under suspicion. Why are they not implicated in Operacion Puerto??? What about John Lelangue??? He was supposedly hired to clean up after the Camenzind, Perez, Hamilton doping mess. I don't believe for one second, he had very little knowledge of what was going into his athlete's systems.
On top of that, there's an unwritten code of silence... and it's enforced by the peloton's biggest names (Armstrong/Simeoni 2004). Gimme a break... riders in the peloton know who the dopers are, who the suppliers are... who the doctors are and who the coaches are, why the silence???
Yes, unfortunate that even the slightest whisper is dealt with harshly by the peloton and others with a vested interest. Not easy being called a liar or loser with an axe to grind. Even less pleasant to be berated and punished in other ways "on the job" or potentially end up out of a job.Tubbs said:
However, cyclists at the end of their careers (especially wealthy ones) should be coming forward. They would certainly have far less to lose. There would still be name calling, obviously, and they might face repercussions along legal lines for slander or libel depending on whether they carelessly presented their story. If they would merely be witnesses in trials or work with anti-doping agencies, then there would be an element of protection for them.
Exactly... and **** Pound is calling them on it. So the fact of the matter is, it's not **** Pound that is behaving immaturely.cynic said:
Personally, I'm not a big fan of Pound's rantings and ravings either because he paints grassroots guys like me with the same broad brush. On the flip side of the coin though, the pro peloton only has itself to blame, and unfortunately it takes more than one Grand Tour winner to lose his jersey and more than an Operacion Puerto before people open their eyes. Riders get punished while organizations get off scott free.
I'd also like to add how pathetic it is to hear people like Landis, Heras and Hamilton using the defence of "questionable lab methods". Cycling fans may not be the brightest bunch but we're not stupid. Why is it that these "questionable lab methods" are perfectly acceptable so long as they test negative??? The other dozen or so time they are tested throughout the year, nobody questions anything??? Wouldn't you want to know what's going on everytime someone draws blood from you or asks you to pee in a cup??? But no... the instant that you test positive all of a sudden the whole friggin process is flawed.
Isn't that interesting? You would think that if the lab methods were so questionable there would be a loud hue and cry to change them, some sort of movement to get rid of "unreliable" T/E tests, improve the scientific validity of the tests they take day in and day out. But no, only when busted do the tests suddenly become outrageously unfair.Tubbs said:
nns1400 said:
Well, duh! Do you complain if your taxes are too low? Call your representative if you weren't caught speeding, to complain that speed limits are too high? No one is going to complain if they test negative. Theoretically, clean riders should demand tougher tests. Realistically, they'll be ostracized, if not outright flicked, if they do. Who wants to be Don Quixote, when the price is a paycheck doing something you love? Failure to complain is at best an indirect bellweather for the accuracy of the tests.
As to whether the tests are accurate or not, I haven't a clue - that's the purvey of doctors and endocrinologists. However, challenging the tests is an intergral part of insuring their accuracy. As well, the right to challenge an accusation and present evidence in defence is a cornerstone of the legal system in every representative government. And the laws apply to both citizens and lawmakers. The governing bodies for cycling, given the responsibility they hold, should at least live up to the same standards of honesty and transparency as the riders they purport to watch over. And they should have no objections to their actions or their judgment being challenged.
Personally, I find great fault with Pound, for being so obsessed with Armstrong that a major blood doping operation flourished right under his enormous nose. WADA is a critical organization, but it needs leadership that is more objective, and less subject to personal motivations and emotional outbursts.
As the old saying goes - Denial is not a river in Africa.nns1400 said:
Too bad that doping only seems to bring out lies and far fetched fantasy from the guilty parties.
In terms of questioning tests. Even if every scientist, chemist and doctor on the planet was in agreement on a fool proof series of tests, the minute that some doper was backed into a corner - guess what? The tests are unreliable, the labs are unreliable or the tests were designed for normal humans and don't apply. This cyclist is special, their unique physiology or circumstance is the cause of the positive test.
Speaking of reliable tests - what about DNA? - that is often challenged by those with no other way out.
