**** Pound says Tyler is a cheater cheater pumpkin eater...



"Ronde Chimp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> TORONTO (AP) -- Tyler Hamilton's title from the Athens Games is "no
> longer a gold medal in the eyes of the world" because of the cyclist's
> failed drug test, the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency said
> Thursday.
>
> Read the rest here:
>
> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


It's fools gold now.

"It appears a cyclist might have escaped this net because of human error,"
Pound said, without identifying Hamilton by name. "But I can assure you it's
no longer a gold medal in the eyes of the world.

"If nothing else, we got him on the second bounce."
 
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> It's fools gold now.



That is total ********. I am confident that some time in the next 6 months
we will have a definitive answer as to why this positive result happened.
Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
cause a positive. Is this then, an appropriate test since there is no way at
all to determine when the alleged "doping" or perfectly legitimate
transfusion took place? Now only athletes that have never had any donor
blood may compete in any Olympic sport?

Why are so many people just accepting this outrage? If he actually gets
caught, I will be right there with my criticism of Tyler but right now there
is nothing but confusion and political posturing.

**** Dickless Pound.
 
Chris <[email protected]> wrote:

> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message


>> It's fools gold now.



> That is total ********. I am confident that some time in the next 6 months
> we will have a definitive answer as to why this positive result happened.


"These positive results" and over a month in completely different
jurisdictions...

> Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
> cause a positive. Is this then, an appropriate test since there is no way at
> all to determine when the alleged "doping" or perfectly legitimate
> transfusion took place? Now only athletes that have never had any donor
> blood may compete in any Olympic sport?


> Why are so many people just accepting this outrage? If he actually gets
> caught, I will be right there with my criticism of Tyler but right now there
> is nothing but confusion and political posturing.


> **** Dickless Pound.


Buy a condom first...
 
Chris said:
Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also cause a positive.

Why would Tyler be "aware" of something that is completely wrong?
The test will become negative 120 days after the transfusion, probably earlier.
 
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> It's fools gold now.

>
>
> That is total ********. I am confident that some time in the next 6 months
> we will have a definitive answer as to why this positive result happened.
> Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
> cause a positive.


Can you cite to medical authority for this assertion? Otherwise you're
statement is ********.

> Is this then, an appropriate test since there is no way at
> all to determine when the alleged "doping" or perfectly legitimate
> transfusion took place? Now only athletes that have never had any donor
> blood may compete in any Olympic sport?


You don't think that this issue was address in decidin on whether or not to
approve the test. My understanding is that the test picks up transfused red
blood cells with different antigens that are detected. Once those transfused
cells die and are broken down, there are no longer any transfused cells to
detect. IIRC the life of a transfused rbc is something like 120 days. Older
transfusion would not be detectable, IIUC.

>
> Why are so many people just accepting this outrage? If he actually gets
> caught, I will be right there with my criticism of Tyler but right now
> there
> is nothing but confusion and political posturing.


Chris, he's BEEN caught. Three positive tests out of three tests run.

>
> **** Dickless Pound.



>
>
 
"patch70" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> Chris Wrote:
> > Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
> > cause a positive.

>
> Why would Tyler be "aware" of something that is completely wrong?
> The test will become negative 120 days after the transfusion, probably
> earlier.


Not necessarily. Do a Pubmed search on 'microchimerism'.

Andy Coggan
 
"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:bt%[email protected]...
> "patch70" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>>
>> Chris Wrote:
>> > Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can
>> > also
>> > cause a positive.

>>
>> Why would Tyler be "aware" of something that is completely wrong?
>> The test will become negative 120 days after the transfusion, probably
>> earlier.

>
> Not necessarily. Do a Pubmed search on 'microchimerism'.
>
> Andy Coggan


And all Tyler has to do is come up with medical proof that he is in fact a
chimera. AFAIK, he hasn't mentioned that as a possibility--just the
unspecified surgical intervention. So let him have another blood test done
for homologous blood doping around Christmas time. If he's negative for
Christmas, he gets a two year suspension.
 
B. Lafferty wrote:
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote
>> Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years
>> ago can also cause a positive.

>
> Can you cite to medical authority for this assertion? Otherwise you're
> statement is ********.


From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12765465

"Persistent microchimerism can follow a blood transfusion, or can occur
from transfer between twins in utereo."

From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14996783

"Iatrogenic chimerism has been investigated in transplantation and
following blood transfusion."
 
B. Lafferty wrote:
>
> So let him have another blood
> test done for homologous blood doping around Christmas time.


He's already had two tests (or perhaps three?): one at the Olympics and
one at the Vuelta. If they measured about the same proportion of foreign
cells at those two dates, that would be at least some evidence of
microchimerism.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> It's fools gold now.

>That is total ********. I am confident that some time in the next 6 months
>we will have a definitive answer as to why this positive result happened.
>Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
>cause a positive. Is this then, an appropriate test since there is no way at
>all to determine when the alleged "doping" or perfectly legitimate
>transfusion took place? Now only athletes that have never had any donor
>blood may compete in any Olympic sport?
>Why are so many people just accepting this outrage? If he actually gets
>caught, I will be right there with my criticism of Tyler but right now there
>is nothing but confusion and political posturing.
>**** Dickless Pound.


According to olympic rules Tyler was not positive. So the idiots who
should know the olympic rules should shut up. Olympic rules say if you
get a non-negative A test, then you have to test the B sample. If the
B sample is also non-negative, then it is positive. Otherwise, it is a
negative.
---------------
Alex
 
Robert Chung wrote:
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>
>>So let him have another blood
>>test done for homologous blood doping around Christmas time.

>
>
> He's already had two tests (or perhaps three?): one at the Olympics and
> one at the Vuelta. If they measured about the same proportion of foreign
> cells at those two dates, that would be at least some evidence of
> microchimerism.


Which brings me to the question I posed about a week ago.

Has Tyler been subjected to this test other than at the
Olympics and the Vuelta?

I've not been able to find any reporting that answers this
question.

Ray
 
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<AE%[email protected]>...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:bt%[email protected]...
> > "patch70" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:p[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Chris Wrote:
> >> > Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can
> >> > also
> >> > cause a positive.
> >>
> >> Why would Tyler be "aware" of something that is completely wrong?
> >> The test will become negative 120 days after the transfusion, probably
> >> earlier.

> >
> > Not necessarily. Do a Pubmed search on 'microchimerism'.
> >
> > Andy Coggan

>
> And all Tyler has to do is come up with medical proof that he is in fact a
> chimera. AFAIK, he hasn't mentioned that as a possibility--just the
> unspecified surgical intervention. So let him have another blood test done
> for homologous blood doping around Christmas time. If he's negative for
> Christmas, he gets a two year suspension.


Correct, but there is no need to wait for Santa. He says that it must
be from an earlier transfusion during a surgical intervention which
most likely would have had to have happened since May. He seemed
pretty busy for that though. Remember, blood transfusions are only
done if there is MAJOR blood-loss. If this transfusion took place AND
he is a chimera, as some claim is reasonably possible, it seems LIKELY
there should be three cell "species" in his blood...unless...his
mother provided the blood for this surgical transfusion. It doesn't
sound like this is the case, and the chimera thing has not been
offered by Tyler as an explanation, which, I agree, you would think he
would have offered by now if it was indeed possible.

It seems reasonable to rule out beyond any SIGNIFICANT doubt right now
any non-transfusion/transplant (of course there would be records of
these anyway) induced chimera by comparing Tyler's mother's blood with
the "odd cells out" blood in the three samples...assuming that the two
times he was tested have the SAME odd "species" present.
Whoa...wouldn't that be wild if each test provided a different 2nd
"species". Who knows what the IOC and UCI know right now.

Forget waiting for Santa...heck...he could just infuse from the same
donor and say, "LOOK! I'm a chimera!" anyway. Anyone know if chimera
is something that would have been detected earlier in life?
Especially for a guy who has undergone surgeries and has had plenty of
heath-check blood-testing? It may not normally be something that
would show on the standards tests. Opinions?
 
"Clovis Lark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> >> It's fools gold now.

>
>
> > That is total ********. I am confident that some time in the next 6

months
> > we will have a definitive answer as to why this positive result

happened.
>
> "These positive results" and over a month in completely different
> jurisdictions...


And what is your point? It sounds like anyone that is indicated as
"positive" will remain so for years. Is that not so?


> > Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years ago can also
> > cause a positive. Is this then, an appropriate test since there is no

way at
> > all to determine when the alleged "doping" or perfectly legitimate
> > transfusion took place? Now only athletes that have never had any donor
> > blood may compete in any Olympic sport?

>
> > Why are so many people just accepting this outrage? If he actually gets
> > caught, I will be right there with my criticism of Tyler but right now

there
> > is nothing but confusion and political posturing.

>
> > **** Dickless Pound.

>
> Buy a condom first...
 
Robert Chung said:
He's already had two tests (or perhaps three?): one at the Olympics and one at the Vuelta. If they measured about the same proportion of foreign cells at those two dates, that would be at least some evidence of microchimerism.

Methinks people are clutching at straws with this whole microchimerism belief. Most of the studies about it are from people with disease states or incorrect gender that would prevent competing in the men's Tour de France or any other elite pro cycling.

Has Tyler had a transfusion in the distant past?

If microchimerism occurs in never transfused healthy males, why haven't more cyclists been found to be positive? And would the % of non-Tyler red blood cells be enough to give a +ve result using the FACS testing? In these studies, the basis of the belief in microchimerism comes from PCR or in situ hybridization testing, not from FACS.
 
"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> Perhaps Tyler is not aware the transfusions from many years
>>> ago can also cause a positive.

>>
>> Can you cite to medical authority for this assertion? Otherwise you're
>> statement is ********.

>
> From:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12765465
>
> "Persistent microchimerism can follow a blood transfusion, or can occur
> from transfer between twins in utereo."


This abstract does not define persistent. See:
http://www.niwi.knaw.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1270763/toon
"HLA-matched BT led to longer persistence of microchimerism than unmatched
BT, regardless of how the packed cells were prepared. In patients treated
before 1995, the difference between matched and unmatched BT was most
pronounced one week after BT (p<0.05, Fisher's exact test), and this trend
continued till at least 4 weeks after BT. Transfusates prepared after 1995,
using automated blood separation, gave rise to fewer cases of
microchimerism, and shorter duration of microchimerism, than transfusates
prepared by the manual method. This difference is probably due to the lower
number of leukocytes in the packed red cells produced by the Compomat® as
compared to manually prepared packed cells (mean ± SD respectively 5.0 ± 2.6
x 100 milion and 7.7 ± 3.5 x 100 million, two-tailed P value <0.0001 by
unpaired t-test with Welch correction). "


>
> From:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14996783
>
> "Iatrogenic chimerism has been investigated in transplantation and
> following blood transfusion."


This abstract in no way addresses the length of time one would test as a
chimera after a transfusion.

I think you're clutching at straws. It has been mentioned that Tyler's
attorney is most likely to look at the methods by which the test was carried
out. An interesting article was sent to me that appeared on the Bicycling
web site (of all places).

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,3253,s1-10361,00.html?category_id=367
.....In the last study on the test, published in the Italian medical journal
Haematologica, Ashenden and other study authors noted that the quality of
antisera available had a significant impact on the accuracy of the test and
said that this issue remained unresolved. In a phone interview last week,
Dr. Ashenden declined to elaborate on whether the issue had in fact been
addressed, citing that Hamilton's case with the UCI was still open.

Some news reports, including here on BICYCLING, have mentioned a
low-probability reason for a positive test: that Tyler is a natural chimera,
or possesses two distinct genetic lineages.

Dr. Margot Kruskall, a pathology professor at Harvard Medical School and
Director of Beth Israel Deaconness' hospital's Division of Laboratory and
Transfusion Medicine, told me in an e-mail exchange that chimerism was a
possible, but highly unlikely, reason for Hamilton's positive test.

"Chimerism has been known for centuries," she wrote, "and there's ample
literature on it in the last 100 years." While chimerism sometimes has no
outward signs and thus avoids detection, Dr. Kruskall said that even if it
is underdiagnosed the condition is still exceedingly rare. But, she added,
chimerism is not always a natural process. "Chimerism can be created
artificially, through bone marrow transplantation, or transplantation of
other tissues," she pointed out.

Disease, another possibility for a false positive, is unlikely in this case
as infection alone would not be a potential culprit--only diseases of the
blood, such as leukemia. "And in such cases, the illness itself is usually
quite apparent," she wrote. Kruskall added that if she were trying to
establish whether or not Hamilton is chimeric, she would test him again in
four months (after the red blood cells from any potential transfusion have
died) and if the result was still positive begin testing other tissues for
two cell lines and investigate his family history.........
 
B. Lafferty wrote:

> I think you're clutching at straws.


What straws am I clutching at? I simply quick-searched PubMed to show that
there *is* some evidence of a link, not that I think that Hamilton's
defense is credible. I wasn't responding to the credibility issue--you
asked if there was a medical citation.

[snipped and put in different order]

> This abstract does not define persistent


Yikes. Now who's clutching at straws? Persistent merely means longer than
what you'd expect given that some people say that transfused RBCs
disappear after a maximum of 120 days.

Brian, your position on LANCE and everything connected to him has
disturbing parallels to Bush's position on Saddam.
 
patch70 wrote:
> Robert Chung Wrote:
>> He's already had two tests (or perhaps three?): one at the Olympics and
>> one at the Vuelta. If they measured about the same proportion of
>> foreign cells at those two dates, that would be at least some evidence
>> of microchimerism.

>
> Methinks people are clutching at straws with this whole microchimerism
> belief.


What is this "clutching at straws" meme? Do you and Lafferty get your
talking points e-mailed to you at the same time?

Both you and Lafferty appear to think I'm defending Hamilton, when all I'm
doing is trying to understand the test and its implications. I make an
income high in the three figures because students, colleagues, and clients
ask me to criticize their work even when I agree with it; they have this
odd notion that it will help them improve their research or their
arguments. Only bad researchers, insecure people, and sitting Presidents
cannot tolerate any criticism whatsoever.
 
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:01:57 +0200, Robert Chung wrote:
> Both you and Lafferty appear to think I'm defending Hamilton, when all I'm
> doing is trying to understand the test and its implications.


Some interesting notions by a few doctors on today's letters page on CN.

> I make an income high in the three figures


Old francs?