Power Profiles and Race Tactics

[frenchyge]

As part of my recent shift in thinking toward how to apply all this training to actual podium finishes, I've been wondering how to match tactics to rider strengths and/or course requirements.

What race tactics would be most appropriate for each of the 4 profiles described on the CyclingPeaks website - All Rounder, Pursuiter, Time-trialist, and Sprinter? (http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/profile.html) As a roadie, I'm mostly interested in tactics pertaining to crits and road races, but all thoughts are welcome. Even some ideas on what races/courses might suit each power profile would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[acoggan]

As part of my recent shift in thinking toward how to apply all this training to actual podium finishes, I've been wondering how to match tactics to rider strengths and/or course requirements.

What race tactics would be most appropriate for each of the 4 profiles described on the CyclingPeaks website - All Rounder, Pursuiter, Time-trialist, and Sprinter? (http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/profile.html) As a roadie, I'm mostly interested in tactics pertaining to crits and road races, but all thoughts are welcome. Even some ideas on what races/courses might suit each power profile would be helpful. Thanks.

First, note that most people will, almost by definition, be "all rounders" (or "undifferentiated"), while fewer will have a power profile that is sufficiently skewed to be clearly classified as anything else. Second, race tactics are obviously dependent in part on things other than your power profile, e.g., the course, the competition, team considerations, etc. That said, though, here are some ideas:

1) an "all rounder" can race what I refer to as opportunistically, i.e., attempting to be present in any break that develops, but also having the potential to place in the final sprint should the race end that way (as most do).

2) when racing on the road, a true pursuiter's best sprint tactic might be to simply "light it up" from a long way out, e.g., during the last lap of a criterium, and basically dare anybody to try to match them mano y mano. This often works quite well if the initial separation can be created without too great of an effort, e.g., by attacking from the rear with a lot of speed already built up. Depending on how skewed their profile is, a pursuiter may also be able to place via getting in longer breakaways, although of course this depends on the level of competition.

3) TTers like me can't afford to let it come down to a sprint, because if we do we'll never place. The solution, of course, is to get in a breakaway, which is obviously easier said than done. The good news for the TTer is that if they can make it into a breakaway, it shouldn't be as hard for them to stay in it, and in fact they may find themselves being one of the people driving it to the finish line. The trick then is figuring out how to defeat one's breakaway companions, so as to not end up with an endless string of near-wins.

4) all a true sprinter needs to do is sit on an wait for the 1 km to go kite, then do their thing. (In fact, this is precisely how my friend Jim Martin describes his career as a roadie...he likes to brag that he was able to make it up to cat. 3 despite never registering a VO2max of >55 mL/min/kg.)

 

[frenchyge]

First, note that most people will, almost by definition, be "all rounders" (or "undifferentiated"), while fewer will have a power profile that is sufficiently skewed to be clearly classified as anything else.

Thanks. Is there a certain 'number of rows' separation that would be needed to constitute a differentiation from the all-rounder profile, in a practical sense? IOW, do you have a sense for how much differentiation would be needed in order to make a difference in race terms?

Also, in your experience, are riders differentiated into the different profiles by training, or genetics? Are people able to train themselves into another profile, or are they going to be all-rounders until they train their strengths to the point of specialization?

1) an "all rounder" can race what I refer to as opportunistically, i.e., attempting to be present in any break that develops, but also having the potential to place in the final sprint should the race end that way (as most do).

At first, I thought being an all-rounder was somewhat of a benefit. Now that you mention that most people will be all-rounders by definition, I realize that most of the riders in a given pack will be all-rounders. Lot's of people *looking for* opportunities to jump on, and few people willing to *create* them. Hmmm... sounds like some races I've been involved in.

2) when racing on the road, a true pursuiter's best sprint tactic might be to simply "light it up" from a long way out, e.g., during the last lap of a criterium, and basically dare anybody to try to match them mano y mano.

Would repeated hard attacks, and/or 'scorched earth' racing be to the pursuiter's advantage, or the TT-er's? Also, the pursuiter's dilemma seems to be "once I get off the front, what to do next (wait for help, or go it alone)?" Thoughts?

3) TTers like me can't afford to let it come down to a sprint, because if we do we'll never place. The solution, of course, is to get in a breakaway, which is obviously easier said than done. The good news for the TTer is that if they can make it into a breakaway, it shouldn't be as hard for them to stay in it, and in fact they may find themselves being one of the people driving it to the finish line. The trick then is figuring out how to defeat one's breakaway companions, so as to not end up with an endless string of near-wins.

The TT-er's challenge seems to be "how to shake the wheel-suckers" when you don't have a really hard attack. Thoughts?

4) all a true sprinter needs to do is sit on an wait for the 1 km to go kite, then do their thing. (In fact, this is precisely how my friend Jim Martin describes his career as a roadie...he likes to brag that he was able to make it up to cat. 3 despite never registering a VO2max of >55 mL/min/kg.)

Despicable.

 

[gvanwagner]

4) all a true sprinter needs to do is sit on an wait for the 1 km to go kite, then do their thing. (In fact, this is precisely how my friend Jim Martin describes his career as a roadie...he likes to brag that he was able to make it up to cat. 3 despite never registering a VO2max of >55 mL/min/kg.)

That's interesting, do you think that its because of a genetic limit or did he have enough succes in sit and sprint that he never really had to develop a full fitness set? Probably a bit of both, but more so the former?

 

[acoggan]

Probably mostly genetic: both 50% of one's baseline VO2max and 50% of one's trainability seem to be determined by genetic factors.

 

[RipVanCommittee]

The TT-er's challenge seems to be "how to shake the wheel-suckers" when you don't have a really hard attack. Thoughts?


Despicable.

Yes...here's a big one. You don't need to let everyone in the break know that you're really strong if you're a TT'r. If you can't sprint, don't drive it TOO hard, so you have something left within 4Ks.

Secondly, never shoot off the first attack in the break. If you counter the first or second attack, it takes much less of a jump to get away.

Lastly, don't discount the effect of being in a long brake with tired and strong sprinters. I've won races against guys with much better sprints--with some lame Wattage numbers (8W/kj for 30 seconds at the end) after being in a 100K break....and I'm guessing it's because I spent much more time riding under my FTP than the other, faster guys. (that, and not seeing the wind until 10M to go!).

 

[Phil Stone]

3) TTers like me can't afford to let it come down to a sprint, because if we do we'll never place. The solution, of course, is to get in a breakaway, which is obviously easier said than done. The good news for the TTer is that if they can make it into a breakaway, it shouldn't be as hard for them to stay in it, and in fact they may find themselves being one of the people driving it to the finish line. The trick then is figuring out how to defeat one's breakaway companions, so as to not end up with an endless string of near-wins.

This one is easy just do it the Belgium way & simply buy off one or all of your break companions!


Never try to sprint from the front from a long way out, your companions will just laugh.Look for moments when the group stops working & attack directly. Belgium's hate to give any advantage & tend to all go on strike if someone stops working. Its these moments that you can sneak away. Try to attack while not actually looking like your attacking. The key I feel is to get a gap as easily as possible & then fire up your engine.

As the poster above said counter attack if you can. Get them to attack by simply sitting at the back. Go after the 2nd wheel so as he catches the attacker you can attack 2 tired riders in place of one or none. if they do not chase then you have to play the old poker game that makes racing actually fun.

 

[acoggan]

Never try to sprint from the front from a long way out, your companions will just laugh.Look for moments when the group stops working & attack directly. Belgium's hate to give any advantage & tend to all go on strike if someone stops working. Its these moments that you can sneak away. Try to attack while not actually looking like your attacking. The key I feel is to get a gap as easily as possible & then fire up your engine.

Phil may not realize it, but his comments above support frenchyge's suggestion that someone's power profile can be used to inform their race tactics. I say that because even though Phil and I have never met, much less raced against one another, as fellow 'TTers' our tactical approach based on experience is nearly identical (the last sentence in particular rang a bell with me). So, now consider how having a powermeter and a coach who understands how to use it could help beginning riders learn much more quickly what is likely to work for them, and what isn't...

 

[dm69]

I find in my experience there are only a few groups of road racer

1.) The allrounder
2.) The light allrounder
3.) The fat lazy sprinter
4.) The triathlete who thinks he cant sprint or do any "roadie" stuff lol

To elaborate- I believe the riders who win the most races are the allrounders who can do anything or believe they can atleast. A lot of its mental so if you think you can do it all you will train for it all. Therefore making you much stronger in all situations.

Then you have your climber variety of allrounder, some of these guys will work turns all day, climb better than anybody, get in breaks and sprint very well. Other climbing types are too scared to sprint and win very few races. IMO the "I cant sprint, allrounder" is the worst angle for a cyclist...after all we train to win races not finish with the bunch.

Then you have your "I am a sprinter therefore I cant work turns, climb or get in a break or TT any good. Admitedly some of these bigger guys are born to sprint but most just use it as an excuse to sit on the bunch's wheel, alot of the time they are actually slow twitch specimens who aren't as fit as the rest.

Then you have the GO FOR GLORY LEAD OUT "TRIATHLETE/TIME TRIAL" guy who doesn't believe he can sprint because of "genetic factors" what a lot of BS. If they are training for ironman than fair enuff give me a leadout but otherwise get in there and do "road cyclist" things.

My advice is stuff genetics and do the best with what you have.Ride long, sprint, do TT's, climb hills, lose weight, work turns, go to the velodrome, practice winning, practice losing and race as much as you can. It will give you all the artillery you need...one of my quotes "I train to win races" stick to that and you should go allright.

 

[doctorSpoc]

I find in my experience there are only a few groups of road racer

1.) The allrounder
2.) The light allrounder
3.) The fat lazy sprinter
4.) The triathlete who thinks he cant sprint or do any "roadie" stuff lol

i think i'm like you, when i say "all rounder", i mean someone that does 'everything' well... they may not be the biggest, baddest at each dicipline but they are competative... some say all rounder to mean someone that is mediocre at everything...

i think your light allrounders are the most dangerous because they can take advantage of any opportunity they are presented with, without fear.

also agree that attitude is important.. sometimes it actually feels easier when you are more agressive than when you are passive... and that's what it's about right... mixing it up?

 

[frenchyge]

i think i'm like you, when i say "all rounder", i mean someone that does 'everything' well... they may not be the biggest, baddest at each dicipline but they are competative... some say all rounder to mean someone that is mediocre at everything...

In practice I think both those scenarios are the same. If there are better riders in each specific discipline then the all-rounder is, in effect, mediocre at each discipline taken separately. Their strength is that they have no glaring weaknesses when the entire spectrum is viewed as a whole.

also agree that attitude is important.. sometimes it actually feels easier when you are more agressive than when you are passive... and that's what it's about right... mixing it up?

Sure. So how do you 'mix it up' to your own advantage if you're an all-rounder or light all-rounder? Can you mix things your own way, or do you have to wait to play in someone else's mix?

 

[rouleur]

Sure. So how do you 'mix it up' to your own advantage if you're an all-rounder or light all-rounder? Can you mix things your own way, or do you have to wait to play in someone else's mix?

Who is your effective competition? Sprinter, time-trialist, other all-rounders? It's likely that the scenario will be a different combination of riders with these attributes, every time are in serious need of asking yourself this quesiton. Obviously you want to take the TT guys to the line and get away from the sprinter. How you do that depends on the terrain, the point in the race, the time gap to the rest of the pack, etc.

Say you're with a strong sprinter with a low LT and a TT guy with not the best sprint - you fall in the middle, so it's very easy to lose the race and very hard to win. You can't ride away from the guy with the FTP but you can't go to the line with the sprinter... 11 months ago I was in the same situation, coming to the line after 30 miles in a break. It was too windy to ride away solo, two would always make up time on one, and to complicate matters the sprinter shut down for the last 4k and had seemingly no problem staying glued to our wheels.

My hope was that the guy with the high FTP would attack and I'd force the sprinter to close the gap, counter with 2k left (I've got a strong 3-5 minute time). Note that we had started with 5 riders, and long since dropped 2, from this exact scenario. Well, the wind was just too hard, or I didn't have enough energy/gas/fitness. My counterattack was simply too weak and my sustained power not high enough at that point. Maybe I didn't time it right. In any case, the sprinter won and the difference between 2nd and 3rd was centimeters.

My experience has been, if you want to win races as an "all rounder" or with "inverted V profile and an underdeveloped LT" (me specifically) you have to aim for selective road races, too hard for the "pure sprinters" but too easy for the guys with astronomical FTP's to ride away from you. When I do well, it's always when it's been selective... Maybe that says I have horrible tactical knowledge and need to rely upon the course to eliminate my competitors.

The other way, if you have my physiological profile (decent but not race winning neuromuscular power, really good power output between 3-5min, and middle of the road functional threshold power) is to focus, alot, on your FTP in training. I can get a good separation from an attack but I don't have a 42mph sprint... I can ride at a high pace for a few minutes. Raising FTP means being able to ride out a hard pace for just a little bit longer, maybe 3 seconds, maybe 20, and that's the difference between winning and losing.

 

[Spunout]

Everyone should practice sprinting.

If I was the all-rounder in that group, I'd false attack getting the TTer to go from a long way out. Sit on the sprinter as he closes the gap. Counter 1km from the line.

If it comes back together, repeat. Sit on the sprinter as he'll have to close the gaps. Make the sprinter lead out the sprint. If you KNOW he'll beat you in the sprint in most situations, you have nothing to lose by sitting on his wheel all the way to the line...right?

 

[wilmar13]

Digging up an old thread because this is close to what I want to ask… looking at my power profile it shows that I have a very high 5 minute power, terrible 5 s power, and decent (for someone with Cat 3 aspirations) 1 min and FT’s. What kind of tactics should I be employing? I have always viewed myself as someone with a lot of “diesel power”, able to hold the 26mph pace over the 200’ hill and drop everyone behind me, but not really able to stay away and certainly not win the sprint from the pack. Without data I thought my 1 minute power would have been my strong point, but 5 minute is much better according to Andy’s chart.

5 sec = 13.2 (watts/Kg body weight)
10sec = 10.95
30sec = 9.62
1min = 7.41
5min = 5.79
20min = 4.22
FT = 4.01
In the past (prior to power profiling), I have had the best results with going off the front 1-2 miles (or laps in a crit) before the finish, 9 times out of 10 getting reeled in at the last second, but also sometimes able to hold it to the end… is this my only shot? As my profile indicates, this is using my strength but is there any kind of event I should be focusing on, or another strategy I should be using? As a 30 year old with full time job, a career as professional domestique (Prologue specialist or sprinter leadout) is pretty much out (well the lack of talent too ), but how can I best utilize my talents since I don’t have a super FT and my sprint is weak? Since I am back racing Cat 4’s again, shouldn’t I be able to use my well above avg 5 minute power to my advantage more reliably, or am I doomed to accept an occasional bout of glory with frequent closing seconds defeats?

 

[Alex Simmons]

As part of my recent shift in thinking toward how to apply all this training to actual podium finishes, I've been wondering how to match tactics to rider strengths and/or course requirements.

What race tactics would be most appropriate for each of the 4 profiles described on the CyclingPeaks website - All Rounder, Pursuiter, Time-trialist, and Sprinter? (http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/profile.html) As a roadie, I'm mostly interested in tactics pertaining to crits and road races, but all thoughts are welcome. Even some ideas on what races/courses might suit each power profile would be helpful. Thanks.

Well ,wouldn't a pursuiter race pursuits, a sprinter sprints, and a TTr TTs? (When I think of sprinters, I think of pure track sprinters who don't see on the road much anyway.)

While these are the extremes, isn't a big part of it simply sensible race selection?

So of course having the complete opposite profile to a pursuiter ain't stopping me from having ambitions in the pursuit!

Weird. I'm even thinking of doing a hilly road race this year, just for the challenge. I'm sure it'll be like eating McDonalds - you do it once a year or so just to remind you never to do it again.

But I get where you are coming from.

The other aspect is where you are relative to the category/grade you are riding. If you have stepped up a cat and now have to fight harder than before just to be there or are the alpha male of the bunch and just need to counter the group tactics that are no doubt being planned against you.

For me in crits I pretty much know that I need to have others initiate the primary attacks which I have to latch onto pronto (OK NMP & FTP, weakness is AWC) so I am very alert to attacks. Otherwise I am happy to wait for the bunch gallop.

Having said that, some of my best results have come from doing the exact opposite to what my profile suggests, partly because it so surprised my competitors that I gained enough advantage with such tactics to overcome the relative weakness in my power profile. You also need to gauge how the other riders are going on that day too (help to know their general profile). Sometimes I just go with my intuition.

 

[Krazyderek]

3.) The fat lazy sprinter

Lol i have a scary feeling i'm the above. I've only done a couple of races but i'm in cat4/masters around here, races usualy go like this. Someone breaks away no one reacts, someone else breaks away, the pack pick's up the pace a little bit, steady.... steady, .... no one wants to do the work.... BAM ATTACK! up the first large hill, half the field is gone.

With most races i just try to stay in the first 7 or 10 riders and save my energy to stay with the main pack unless there's a break away of more then 3 people then i get myself in there and in either case try to suck wheel for as long as possible, if i do have to pull, it isn't more then 30 seconds, especially in a large group, then just make sure you're in the first 4 or 5 riders around the last corner and well, i'm a decent cat4 sprinter so... like 10w/kg-ish..

Anyways, to the question, applying power trainning to racing, well like other's said, it depends on the course, the competition, and the conditions. Of course, always working on getting your FTP up higher and higher is never going to hurt. Intervals are also a fairly practical idea, gets you used to puting out high power for 3-5mins and then recoverying over and over, just like doing a couple hills on a course, or keeping up with accelerations in the pack. After that, it comes down to what you want to work on.

 

[frenchyge]

Digging up an old thread because this is close to what I want to ask… looking at my power profile it shows that I have a very high 5 minute power, terrible 5 s power, and decent (for someone with Cat 3 aspirations) 1 min and FT’s. What kind of tactics should I be employing?

Gives me another chance to say thanks to Andy and others who contributed on this thread the first time. I believe Andy's power profiling has contributed to my great results this year, and I'm now able to approach a race with a definite game-plan, where most others don't seem to have a clue when they roll up to the start except that they want to stay with the lead pack and work as little as possible.

Anyway, that's an interesting profile Wilmar! Does that represent a highly trained state for you? Having such a high 5MP relative to FT might imply that your FTP is at a relatively low percentage of your VO2max, and might improve significantly with some dedicated training. Likewise, sprint power can improve rather quickly with some practice, so it may be possible to minimize your weakness and train FT into a real strength as well.

As far as tactics, it sounds like you've already got it close to right with your approach. I'd lump you with the TT-ers in some of the suggestions that were made earlier in the thread, meaning: try to get into and help breaks, let the other guys make the first attacks, and try to slip away after a couple attacks when everyone is looking at each other. If it all comes together before the finish, you've got nothing to lose by going solo with 1-2 miles, since you're going to lose the sprint anyway.

 

[frenchyge]

Well ,wouldn't a pursuiter race pursuits, a sprinter sprints, and a TTr TTs?

Heh. Those categories refer to the power profiles and explanation in the link that you quoted, and not necessarily the types of events that the athlete competes in.

 

[wilmar13]

Anyway, that's an interesting profile Wilmar!

I think I made a mistake…actually, I didn’t realize I should be testing for each interval at different times/days, these are all from the same day… I don’t think my sprint is that bad, I have seen 1300+ watts before when fresh (weigh 85 Kg), so that maybe if I pull the peaks from different days I will be a more balanced all rounder with better 5S and 1m rankings… otherwise, we need to add a 5th profile to DM69’s list for what I have:
1.) The allrounder
2.) The light allrounder
3.) The fat lazy sprinter
4.) The triathlete who thinks he cant sprint or do any "roadie" stuff lol
5) training ride dominator/race day schmuck (5 minute power without the rest to back it up is useless except when you want to punish your riding buddies)

Does that represent a highly trained state for you? Having such a high 5MP relative to FT might imply that your FTP is at a relatively low percentage of your VO2max, and might improve significantly with some dedicated training.

Not sure, it was a good day for me though. I can probably improve a little and like I said, if I cherry pick each interval from different days, I will show better #’s in 5S and 1M power, which would make sense, because years ago I was a Cat 3 before I quit racing due to work/life commitments, and when I began again in Brazil I was competitive at what was the equivalent of Cat 3 racing. Now back in the states, as a Cat 4 I have only done a few events: 8th in elimination Sprint competition, 13th in a Crit, 13th in long RR (but did shatter the peloton and almost won with my escape technique in the last 2Kms ) and some TT’s. Last night I did a 21:54 in a 10 mile TT held at a racetrack here in Charlotte (which would have gotten me second place if in the Cat3), so considering all of this, my power profile (with cherry picked intervals) is probably an accurate reflection of a barely competitive Cat 3 all rounder with slight propensity to TT. Maybe if I train really hard I can someday become Cat 2 pack fodder , oh wait, by then I will be doing masters races with all the ex elites cleaning up every weekend, like a lot of you guys are dealing with . On second thought, maybe I will just stay a Cat 4 and focus on becoming the tallest midget in the circus instead.

All of this is based on the fact that your power profile comes from the best efforts in each interval even if on differenct days, not the best of one day correct?If I am wrong about that, I am clearly a type “5” rider.

 

[Alex Simmons]

All of this is based on the fact that your power profile comes from the best efforts in each interval even if on differenct days, not the best of one day correct?If I am wrong about that, I am clearly a type “5” rider.

Yes, I would say different days, at least that's how I do mine but the days you choose should be in reasonable proximity, since the idea is to theoretically know what your profile is at any given point in time.

What's reasonable? I've tended to use training blocks as my limit to choose from, which might be a 3 or 4 week blocks - this typically gives me an opportunity to properly test each MMP through either interval work, testing or racing. Often I score 2-3 of the MMPs in the one ride anyway, especially if it's a race.