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Powerbreathe trainer, does it work?

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Cycling Training
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21 May 2008
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terry potter
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  1. the cyclops said:

    Just breathe out of your mouth?

    Ok I asked for that but it doesn't fit all situations - try eating on the go when you can't get air in, like when you have a heavy cold. You soon get into oxygen debt. There is also something weird going on with my jaw/throat where when I am really suffering I hold my jaw forward and to the right to open the airway enough. I've no idea why, but it works. I'm also trying to get into the habit of breathing from the stomach (well, diaphram but it's easier to think of it as your stomach). This seems to help as a technique to get up the big climbs - expanding your stomach instead of your chest. That, along with concentrating on breathing out instead of in, I've found I can last longer at the top end. Given that there is a lot of information on this sort of thing it kind of makes sense that a Powerbreathe would have some effect to train the breathing.

  2. Yonni said:

    Ok I asked for that but it doesn't fit all situations - try eating on the go when you can't get air in, like when you have a heavy cold. You soon get into oxygen debt. There is also something weird going on with my jaw/throat where when I am really suffering I hold my jaw forward and to the right to open the airway enough. I've no idea why, but it works. I'm also trying to get into the habit of breathing from the stomach (well, diaphram but it's easier to think of it as your stomach). This seems to help as a technique to get up the big climbs - expanding your stomach instead of your chest. That, along with concentrating on breathing out instead of in, I've found I can last longer at the top end. Given that there is a lot of information on this sort of thing it kind of makes sense that a Powerbreathe would have some effect to train the breathing.


    Well dont get me wrong,I have been wanting to try one of these things for a while now.Not necessarily this brand (several companies make different variations of them) but the whole "idea" of how this work is intriguing.

  3. why cant people just breathe through a straw instead of using this thing?

  4. I think you are being extremely harsh, I read an article in Positive People's Thinking, Magazine (Monthly from all good retailers price 9.99) and they said scepticism was bad for the soul 'Man', It is filled with lots of interesting articles and I highly recommend it.

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by finnrambo [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    why cant people just breathe through a straw instead of using this thing?


    Why can't they just train properly instead of looking for ineffective shortcuts?

  6. I've found that riding really hard/training really hard, especially on climbs, often makes me feel like I'm breathing through a straw. As a bonus, I don't have to buy a cheap gadget to reap that benefit. Tectonic plate shifting and volcanic activity did all the prep work at zero financial cost to me.

  7. I was introduced to POWERbreathe products around about the same time as those magnetic wrist band things (training FX or whatever) and accordingly I was impressively sceptical.

    However, instead of lots of 'mays' and 'feels' etc, POWERbreathe can back up their products with science, and unlike these silly wrist band things, POWERbreathe is available on prescription for those with certain lung function issues. That to me suggests strongly that this isn't witch doctor medicine or whatever...

    Now, I can see no evidence as to how POWERbreathe training will increase your VO2 max specifically, I am not sure its a claim they even make, but I do understand the rational behind how if you train to better utilise your lungs, strengthen the muscles supporting the breathing function, it can help you breathe more easily and therefore release performance.

    More than looking at physical VO2max results, think about your physical output. My VO2 Max is in the mid 70's but my FTP is pretty average to poor. I can get the oxygen in OK, but just because of that I'm not going to be a world class cyclist. There is a whole host of other factors that determine performance. I don't need to improve my VO2max to be a better cyclist, I need to look at the other limiting factors. Now one of these limiting factors may well be how effectively I breather when hurting, more likely however is that the physical stress of breathing hard and fast will be one limiting factor for how long I can ride at VO2max, along with flexibility, core strength, mechaincal efficiency, nutrition etc etc.

    Now I do core work, I stretch, I am always looking to optimise bike position, nutrition etc, I would be foolish to ignore another integral part of cycling, your breathing.

    So in summary, I think for what is no more than £50 outlay, if it can genuinely find you 4% performance, then it is well worth trying. It's less than a night on the tiles.

    From the above, you can tell my scepticism has waned and I am now keen to give it a go. I had a play on a K5 (the top daddy one) recently and it's sucked me in. I'll be doing some POWERbreathe training and measuring the results through bike testing. If it goes well, I'll start promoting to my athletes so watch this space!

  8. But in the mean time, a lot of people will gain quick performance benefits if they simply 'think' about their breathing more when exercising hard. As mentioned by someone else, you can only process so much air at a given time, however, most of us start to breath faster and more shallow when trying hard, which reduces the amount of capillaries exchanging gases, but equally gives them less time to do each breath. Focus on breathing hard and deep when giving it some... remember Indurain's diaphram belly? That was him opening his lungs to get everything out of them.

  9. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Koolstof [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    However, instead of lots of 'mays' and 'feels' etc, POWERbreathe can back up their products with science, and unlike these silly wrist band things, POWERbreathe is available on prescription for those with certain lung function issues. That to me suggests strongly that this isn't witch doctor medicine or whatever...

    You mean science like this:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19780375
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18974712
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18603575
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11504589
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11421512
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874123
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18641709
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912887
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18308881
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15322855
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21988265
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21347970
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20351576
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19841931

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Koolstof [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
    Now one of these limiting factors may well be how effectively I breather when hurting, more likely however is that the physical stress of breathing hard and fast will be one limiting factor for how long I can ride at VO2max, along with flexibility, core strength, mechaincal efficiency, nutrition etc etc.

    But it's not. Our max breathing capacity is not a limiter. Unless you have a serious pulmonary illness of some kind.

    Not sure mechanical efficiency impacts how long you can sustain VO2max for. It will however determine how much power you sustain at VO2max.

    Likewise with core strength and flexibility. What have they to do with how long one can sustain a state of VO2max?

  11. PowerBreathe Respiratory Trainer. I have been looking to get one of this for ages!!! Does any of you have any experience with it??? Does it work???

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Alex Simmons [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Why can't they just train properly instead of looking for ineffective shortcuts?

    I agree with you completely on that, but one thing you might not agree with is: if your such a crummy rider you need these shortcuts then why dont you just get EPO? I'm not suggesting the use of it, quite the opposite but people dont need all these gadgets and drugs to enjoy a ride, isn't that what cycling is supposed to be about?

  13. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Alex Simmons [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    You mean science like this:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19780375
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18974712
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18603575
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11504589
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11421512
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874123
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18641709
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912887
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18308881
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15322855
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21988265
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21347970
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20351576
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19841931


    Just playin' the part of the local village idiot here (I've had a beer or three and have the Jesters hat on) but in this study: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov11504589 the authors say that "We propose that the effect of RMT on exercise performance in highly trained cyclists does not exceed that in a placebo group" but the advantage in the " highly reproducible 8 km time trial test" that the RMT group seemed to have seems worthy of further investigation. I wouldn't care a bit that "heart rate, ventilation, or venous blood lactate, at equal work-rates during the incremental exercise test or at equal times during the fixed work-rate endurance test were not changed significantly across these exercise trials in either group"

    The 8 km time trial performance increased 1.8+/-1.2% (or 15+/-10 sec; P<0.01) in the RMT group with 8 of 9 subjects increasing; the placebo group showed a variable non-significant change in 5 of 8 subjects (-0.3+/-2.7%, P=0.07)

    "We propose that the effect of RMT on exercise performance in highly trained cyclists does not exceed that in a placebo group." I propose that losing a race by a few second sucks. If they can, in a highly reproducible test" get a fair chunk of riders riding upto 15 seconds faster over 5 miles then in our world it's not an amount to be sneezed at. 5 miles...at 30 mph that's 10 minutes, a fair bit over a VO2 effort. How much would the RMT gain be worth over 25 miles?

    Perspective.

  14. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Just playin' the part of the local village idiot here (I've had a beer or three and have the Jesters hat on) but in this study: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov11504589 the authors say that "We propose that the effect of RMT on exercise performance in highly trained cyclists does not exceed that in a placebo group" but the advantage in the " highly reproducible 8 km time trial test" that the RMT group seemed to have seems worthy of further investigation. I wouldn't care a bit that "heart rate, ventilation, or venous blood lactate, at equal work-rates during the incremental exercise test or at equal times during the fixed work-rate endurance test were not changed significantly across these exercise trials in either group"

    The 8 km time trial performance increased 1.8+/-1.2% (or 15+/-10 sec; P<0.01) in the RMT group with 8 of 9 subjects increasing; the placebo group showed a variable non-significant change in 5 of 8 subjects (-0.3+/-2.7%, P=0.07)

    "We propose that the effect of RMT on exercise performance in highly trained cyclists does not exceed that in a placebo group." I propose that losing a race by a few second sucks. If they can, in a highly reproducible test" get a fair chunk of riders riding upto 15 seconds faster over 5 miles then in our world it's not an amount to be sneezed at. 5 miles...at 30 mph that's 10 minutes, a fair bit over a VO2 effort. How much would the RMT gain be worth over 25 miles?

    Perspective.


    I have some questions with some of their tests:

    1. While intraclass correlation was at about 0.97, I wonder if the data set was large enough to reasonably assume statistical significance, especially given the inconclusive nature (the authors stated their results should insignificant results) of the results. Granted, my lab work is and has been in physics and optics, not in physiology; however, with all data it's always essential to insure that the sample set is large enough (i.e. the number of riders in each group) and that the sampling frequency and length of study is high enough. Whether this was true isn't clear from the study.
    2. The authors assume that testing methods used by others may not have been the best choices. I think this is likewise possible for this study. I certainly question the use of HR and RPE to properly constrain the time trial test. A power meter of course would have been much better than both RPE and HR. The authors did choose appropriately when they chose to use a placebo group.

    I think the most telling aspect of their study and of their interpretation of their results is this statement by the authors in the last paragraph of the "Discussion" section 4.5:

    "Based on the present findings in the time trial tests, we propose that specific respiratory muscle training in highly fit, competitive subjects may influence endurance exercise performance at most to a very limited extent and that most of this small influence can be explained by a placebo effect."

    In other words, there's no scientific reason in the study to think that using devices like Powerbreathe will help your cycling performance (at least in time trialing). Of course, the public is quite happy to misinterpret scientific studies and results, and I'd expect nothing less here.

  15. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I have some questions with some of their tests:

    1. While intraclass correlation was at about 0.97, I wonder if the data set was large enough to reasonably assume statistical significance, especially given the inconclusive nature (the authors stated their results should insignificant results) of the results. Granted, my lab work is and has been in physics and optics, not in physiology; however, with all data it's always essential to insure that the sample set is large enough (i.e. the number of riders in each group) and that the sampling frequency and length of study is high enough. Whether this was true isn't clear from the study.
    2. The authors assume that testing methods used by others may not have been the best choices. I think this is likewise possible for this study. I certainly question the use of HR and RPE to properly constrain the time trial test. A power meter of course would have been much better than both RPE and HR. The authors did choose appropriately when they chose to use a placebo group.

    I think the most telling aspect of their study and of their interpretation of their results is this statement by the authors in the last paragraph of the "Discussion" section 4.5:

    "Based on the present findings in the time trial tests, we propose that specific respiratory muscle training in highly fit, competitive subjects may influence endurance exercise performance at most to a very limited extent and that most of this small influence can be explained by a placebo effect."

    In other words, there's no scientific reason in the study to think that using devices like Powerbreathe will help your cycling performance (at least in time trialing). Of course, the public is quite happy to misinterpret scientific studies and results, and I'd expect nothing less here.


    speaking of placebo that power balance band comes to mind

  16. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by finnrambo [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    speaking of placebo that power balance band comes to mind


    Steve Hogg claims those bands make you lean 45° to the left and pervert your fit. He also claims he can see dead people because he doesn't wear a charity band.

  17. Just to come back to a few comments posted above...

    "Why can't they just train properly instead of looking for ineffective shortcuts?"

    This attitude is why the average club cyclist remains that... average. There seems to be an obsession in the UK that the only way to be a better cyclist is to ride further, for longer... Now whilst I'll happily agree that riding more is an effective way to improve when done as part of a structured training rpogramme, the reality is, most of us do not have unlimited time to ride their bikes, and more importantly do not have unlimited recovery time to benefit from massive mileage.

    The majority of us will benefit more from a more reserved mileage that is coupled with a more rounded approach to performance as a whole, than simply adding another 10 hours to the weekly load. My 2011 season is a case in point. my second child arrived last December, so I did no riding for six weeks between then and the end of January. Following that, my trainign was limited to between 5 and 6 hours a week. I finished the season ranked in the top 30 Elites in the Uk, off the back of 23 days racing. I won 7 races, and finished in the top 5 another 7 times.

    How? OK, one part was targeting races where I know could perform, but mainly it was entering into a training programme that maximised my time, and addressed as many factors affecting performance as possible. This included flexibility (allowing me to hold a more aerodynamic position for longer at lower mechanicl cost), core strength (for the same reasons as flexibnility), psychology (fine tuning race craft and mental approach made a real difference), position, equipment (changing shoes/pedals saved me ~200grams rotational weight but more importantly the better fit gained me about 10 watts 20min power), diet etc etc etc.

    each on there own probably gained me a couple of percent, but together, they more than negated for the halving of actual training time.

    With that in mind I am open to the potential benefits Powerbreathe can bring to the table. I don't know many people (well I'm yet to meet one) that would say it didn't benefit performance, so I'm willing to give it a try and test myself over the results. I'm open minded and happy to try it, if it doesn't work, then I'll be happy to shout about that as well.

    As for science references, I was more referring to the studies undertaken to allow powerbreathe to be recognised by the NHS and made available on prescription. I'll accept that for an athlete the differences are going to be marginal, but thats the point... as BC say, the aggregation of marginal gains.

    with regards to Powerbreather benefits... I envisage it to be similar to core and flexibility work. Core/flexibility development allows me to stay aero for longer in more comfort with less mechanical loss of efficiency. When on the drops, or more appropriately on aero tri-bars, breathing is going to be restricted. If by strengthening your respiratory muscles you can help negate some of that positional restriction on breathing, then I would anticipate a beneift in performance. Thats performance, not VO2 max.

    Finally, comparing wristbands with powerbreathe is not fair. Powerbreathe has been proven to develop respiratory muscles, thats undisputed, what is disputable is whether stronger respiratory muscles benefit cycling performance. Those wristbands work purely on a placebo basis only.

  18. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Koolstof [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Just to come back to a few comments posted above...

    "Why can't they just train properly instead of looking for ineffective shortcuts?"

    This attitude is why the average club cyclist remains that... average. There seems to be an obsession in the UK that the only way to be a better cyclist is to ride further, for longer... Now whilst I'll happily agree that riding more is an effective way to improve when done as part of a structured training rpogramme, the reality is, most of us do not have unlimited time to ride their bikes, and more importantly do not have unlimited recovery time to benefit from massive mileage.

    The majority of us will benefit more from a more reserved mileage that is coupled with a more rounded approach to performance as a whole, than simply adding another 10 hours to the weekly load. My 2011 season is a case in point. my second child arrived last December, so I did no riding for six weeks between then and the end of January. Following that, my trainign was limited to between 5 and 6 hours a week. I finished the season ranked in the top 30 Elites in the Uk, off the back of 23 days racing. I won 7 races, and finished in the top 5 another 7 times.

    How? OK, one part was targeting races where I know could perform, but mainly it was entering into a training programme that maximised my time, and addressed as many factors affecting performance as possible. This included flexibility (allowing me to hold a more aerodynamic position for longer at lower mechanicl cost), core strength (for the same reasons as flexibnility), psychology (fine tuning race craft and mental approach made a real difference), position, equipment (changing shoes/pedals saved me ~200grams rotational weight but more importantly the better fit gained me about 10 watts 20min power), diet etc etc etc.

    each on there own probably gained me a couple of percent, but together, they more than negated for the halving of actual training time.

    With that in mind I am open to the potential benefits Powerbreathe can bring to the table. I don't know many people (well I'm yet to meet one) that would say it didn't benefit performance, so I'm willing to give it a try and test myself over the results. I'm open minded and happy to try it, if it doesn't work, then I'll be happy to shout about that as well.

    As for science references, I was more referring to the studies undertaken to allow powerbreathe to be recognised by the NHS and made available on prescription. I'll accept that for an athlete the differences are going to be marginal, but thats the point... as BC say, the aggregation of marginal gains.

    with regards to Powerbreather benefits... I envisage it to be similar to core and flexibility work. Core/flexibility development allows me to stay aero for longer in more comfort with less mechanical loss of efficiency. When on the drops, or more appropriately on aero tri-bars, breathing is going to be restricted. If by strengthening your respiratory muscles you can help negate some of that positional restriction on breathing, then I would anticipate a beneift in performance. Thats performance, not VO2 max.

    Finally, comparing wristbands with powerbreathe is not fair. Powerbreathe has been proven to develop respiratory muscles, thats undisputed, what is disputable is whether stronger respiratory muscles benefit cycling performance. Those wristbands work purely on a placebo basis only.


    Well, according to the conclusion of the authors of the study above, Powerbreathe works by placebo action, too. Bigger gains are much more likely to be had through recognized training methods, and I'll bet Alex Simmons will concur with that. It's always better to pitch money at fairy tale solutions than that which is proven to work......right?

  19. "Well, according to the conclusion of the authors of the study above, Powerbreathe works by placebo action, too."

    Alienator, I am not sure how they can say it works on by placebo action unless they had people training deliberately ineffectively with a Powerbreathe. What I mean is, if you train with Powerbreathe you will after a few weeks be better at working out with a Powerbreathe. Now whether that is via the development of associated muscles or the neural pathways (or whatever) associated with the trainign action I can't say, but there will be measurable differences in how well you can violently suck air into your lungs.

    Now that may, or may not have an effect on cycling performance (I believe that it can so I'll try it and see), but to say any difference in performance is purely Placebo to me suggests there is a lack of understanding of the results, or inneffective testing protocol.

    " Bigger gains are much more likely to be had through recognized training methods, and I'll bet Alex Simmons will concur with that."

    I totally agree that there are bigger gains to be had, and if I wrote a list of order of preference for gaining performance, a Powerbreathe is going to be pretty far down that list.

    "It's always better to pitch money at fairy tale solutions than that which is proven to work......right?"

    Clearly not!

  20. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Koolstof [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    "Well, according to the conclusion of the authors of the study above, Powerbreathe works by placebo action, too."

    Alienator, I am not sure how they can say it works on by placebo action unless they had people training deliberately ineffectively with a Powerbreathe. What I mean is, if you train with Powerbreathe you will after a few weeks be better at working out with a Powerbreathe. Now whether that is via the development of associated muscles or the neural pathways (or whatever) associated with the trainign action I can't say, but there will be measurable differences in how well you can violently suck air into your lungs.


    They proposed their conclusion based on the scientific study that was done which was built around the tents of the Scientific Method, whose purpose is to define a rigorous method of discovery which is step-wise and removes human bias from the measurement process. That's how they can say what they did. How do you know there are measurable differences? Where is the study you published? What is your financial motive here?

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