Private members bill on cycle helmet compulsion.

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Mike Sales, Dec 21, 2003.

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  1. Mike Sales

    Mike Sales Guest

    Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery
    for Private Members Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill
    making cycle helmets compulsory for children under 16.
    See
    http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill

    Mike Sales
     
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  2. Ian

    Ian Guest

    Mike Sales scribed with passion and wit:

    > Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery for Private Members
    > Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets compulsory for children
    > under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >
    > Mike Sales
    >
    >
    For the avoidance of doubt, despite my pro-helmet stance, I have written to my M.P. stating my
    objection to this bill on the grounds of the false information used to support it, but stating that
    I would be prepared to support this bill if real information was used and if it included a fully
    researched minimum standards policy for helmet manufacture based on proper development rather that
    whacking the helmet with a bronze ball.

    --
    Ian

    http://www.catrike.co.uk
     
  3. Saintlykeyna

    Saintlykeyna Guest

    hmm - I think locking up kids for not wearing a helmet when they are cycling out and about with
    their mates is a total non-starter.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Ian posted ...

    > Mike Sales scribed with passion and wit:
    >
    >> Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery for Private Members
    >> Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets compulsory for children
    >> under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >>
    >> Mike Sales
    >>
    >>
    > For the avoidance of doubt, despite my pro-helmet stance, I have written to my M.P. stating my
    > objection to this bill on the grounds of the false information used to support it, but stating
    > that I would be prepared to support this bill if real information was used and if it included a
    > fully researched minimum standards policy for helmet manufacture based on proper development
    > rather that whacking the helmet with a bronze ball.

    Nice, well-reasoned arguments ... ;)~

    But if kids can already get away with all manner of much more serious crimes then I fear that any
    legislation would be unworkable in practice.

    But I reckon it's stil worth doing what we can to 'block' the bill, as it would be a 'toe in the
    door' to allow further legislation through ..

    --
    Paul
     
  5. On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:52:33 +0000, "A.lee" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:43:46 +0000, Mike Sales wrote:
    >
    >> Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery for Private Members
    >> Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets compulsory for children
    >> under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >
    >And it'll have no chance of succeeding as there will be very limited time in this Parliament for
    >any new legislation, never mind a contentious bill like this. Alan.

    indeed. but if there is no preceived opposition to the idea then it'll make it much more likely a
    bill with more chance of implementation will surface in the future.

    if we ever do get such a law it'll kill dead any idea of cycling as a day-to-day means of transport.

    get writing.
     
  6. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Ian wrote:
    >
    > For the avoidance of doubt, despite my pro-helmet stance, I have written to my M.P. stating my
    > objection to this bill on the grounds of the false information used to support it, but stating
    > that I would be prepared to support this bill if real information was used and if it included a
    > fully researched minimum standards policy for helmet manufacture based on proper development
    > rather that whacking the helmet with a bronze ball.

    I've written to my MP pointing out the false information and suggesting that it, and BHIT who are
    providing it, should not be allowed to inform legislation.

    Tony
     
  7. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >But if kids can already get away with all manner of much more serious crimes then I fear that any
    >legislation would be unworkable in practice.

    I reckon it would be unworkable because 90% of child cyclists' head injury accidents happen off
    road. Unless the bill covers riding on private land (which would make it one of the most intrusive
    pieces of legislation on the books - after all, we're not required to wear protective equipment when
    doing DIY) it can't even begin to scratch the surface.

    >But I reckon it's stil worth doing what we can to 'block' the bill, as it would be a 'toe in the
    >door' to allow further legislation through ..

    Worse, it would give the insurance companies something tangible to use in their attempts to claim
    contributory negligence when a cager kills or injures one of us and we're not wearing a plastic hat.
    Even if we are, they may assert that the "need" for a plastic hat implies that we are aware that
    cycling is uniquely dangerous and therefore must bear some responsibility. It would set a dangerous
    precedent. Luckily it is almost certain to fail.

    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
     
  8. "Mike Sales" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the
    lottery
    > for Private Members Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets
    > compulsory for children under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >
    > Mike Sales
    >

    without wishing to cast doubt on the report, I've just looked up Mr Martlew MP and his EDMs, and
    there isn't one about cycle helmets. Can someone enlighten please?
     
  9. Ian

    Ian Guest

    Saintlykeyna scribed with passion and wit:

    > hmm - I think locking up kids for not wearing a helmet when they are cycling out and about with
    > their mates is a total non-starter.

    I think you will find the penalty was six strokes of the birch.

    --
    Ian

    http://www.catrike.co.uk
     
  10. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On 21 Dec 2003 17:25:58 GMT someone who may be [email protected]
    (Saintlykeyna) wrote this:-

    >hmm - I think locking up kids for not wearing a helmet when they are cycling out and about with
    >their mates is a total non-starter.

    That has never stopped governments from coming up with daft laws before.

    Even if the law is not enforced very often some slime-ball lawyer will use it to blame children for
    being injured by poor innocent oppressed motorists.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
    keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  11. Richard Burton wrote:
    > "Mike Sales" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery for Private Members
    >> Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets compulsory for children
    >> under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >>
    >> Mike Sales
    >>
    >
    > without wishing to cast doubt on the report, I've just looked up Mr Martlew MP and his EDMs, and
    > there isn't one about cycle helmets. Can someone enlighten please?

    A Private Members Bill is NOT the same as an Early Day Motion.

    See http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/factsheets.cfm

    Regards,

    Pete.
     
  12. \ Dave

    \ Dave Guest

    "[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:52:33 +0000, "A.lee" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:43:46 +0000, Mike Sales wrote:
    > >
    > >> Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the
    lottery
    > >> for Private Members Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets
    > >> compulsory for children under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    > >
    > >And it'll have no chance of succeeding as there will be very limited time in this Parliament for
    > >any new legislation, never mind a contentious bill like this. Alan.
    >
    > indeed. but if there is no preceived opposition to the idea then it'll make it much more likely a
    > bill with more chance of implementation will surface in the future.
    >
    > if we ever do get such a law it'll kill dead any idea of cycling as a day-to-day means of
    > transport.
    >
    > get writing.
    >

    Presumably just like it did motorcycling?.....

    Why?....
     
  13. "> >>
    > >
    > > without wishing to cast doubt on the report, I've just looked up Mr Martlew MP and his EDMs, and
    > > there isn't one about cycle helmets. Can someone enlighten please?
    >
    > A Private Members Bill is NOT the same as an Early Day Motion.
    >
    > See
    >
    http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/factsheets.cfm
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Pete.

    Thanks for enlightening me Pete, but where is the text of the bill? I've been looking for 20 mins
    and can't find it.
     
  14. > Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the
    lottery
    > for Private Members Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets
    > compulsory for children under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill

    Have emailed my MP asking what he thinks of bicycle helmets, specifically, whether wearing them
    should be made law like seatbelts in cars. He says he's particularly interested in sport so he
    should have some sort of vague view.

    Deliberately no mention of the bill (we'll see if he's heard of it) and the question was phrased so
    he'd presume I'm quitely pro-compulsion. If he's anti the bill/compulsion I'll be assured of an
    honest answer instead of the usual placatory twaddle.
     
  15. Phil Bixby

    Phil Bixby Guest

    > >
    > > if we ever do get such a law it'll kill dead any idea of cycling as a day-to-day means of
    > > transport.
    > >
    > > get writing.
    > >
    >
    > Presumably just like it did motorcycling?.....
    >
    > Why?....
    >
    Big difference (speaking as both biker and cyclist). People get into the habit of cycling as
    children; if helmet compulsion turns loads of kids off cycling (and experience both from abroad and
    from work in Safe Routes to Schools projects here suggests it would) then this will filter through
    to fewer adult cyclists as they grow up. Secondly many people cycle because it can be very cheap to
    get into - an inherited or £10 secondhand bike. Think they'll do that if they have to pay twice the
    value of the bike for a helmet? Thirdly motorcycling's always had some culture of protective
    clothing, even if helmets weren't universal. Cycling doesn't.

    Phil B York, UK
     
  16. > Have emailed my MP asking what he thinks of bicycle helmets, specifically, whether wearing them
    > should be made law like seatbelts in cars. He says he's particularly interested in sport so he
    > should have some sort of vague view.
    >
    > Deliberately no mention of the bill (we'll see if he's heard of it) and
    the
    > question was phrased so he'd presume I'm quitely pro-compulsion. If he's anti the bill/compulsion
    > I'll be assured of an honest answer instead of
    the
    > usual placatory twaddle.

    Arse, received this via email on a <Sunday> (maybe this man does deserve my vote)

    "Like to see the accident rate first but seems a good idea to me"

    Hmm, maybe I'll put a hold on that voting thing. I guess I'll do some research and see if #'s
    killed/seriously brain damaged is worth government interference, then a bit more on how many will
    cycle less, how many of these accidents are in places covered by the ban, how many of these
    accidents involve a car splatting them and would be outside the protective wossname of the
    helmets. Oh, then that rather scary journal article stating it's probable that helmets not only
    protect against the wrong type of impact but make the angular impacts that cause the brain damage
    more likely.

    Now, to the point of this post:

    Anyone done this before? Could you post what you sent?
     
  17. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    "Mark Thompson" <[email protected] (change warm for hot)>
    wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    [re writign to MPs, getting facts, etc.]

    > Anyone done this before? Could you post what you sent?

    Are you a member of the CTC? If so, Roger Geffen (obvious email @ ctc.org.uk) may well be able to
    provide you with the latest research figures and such. He's been very helpful to me in the past.

    My response to the earlier EDM is here:
    <http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/Web/public.nsf/Documents/Alan_Meale_re_ED M_1783> that might give
    you some ideas. Roger may also be able to send you a copy of their response.

    --
    Guy
    ===

    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
     
  18. Mseries

    Mseries Guest

    I wrote to my MP asking him to think very carefully before supporting the EDM, he responded stating
    that he is a CTC member and suports their view that helmets should not be made mandatory. He told me
    that he would not be voting for EDM1783
     
  19. Richard Burton wrote:
    > "Mike Sales" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Eric Martlew, Labour M.P. for Carlisle has won seventh place in the lottery for Private Members
    >> Bills and is putting before Parliament a BeHIT Bill making cycle helmets compulsory for children
    >> under 16. See http://www.cyclenetwork.org.uk/latest/latest.html#bill
    >>
    >> Mike Sales
    >>
    >>
    > OK, I've read the report, but where is the bill?

    It hasn't been put before Parliament yet, so hasn't been published. Martlew has won seventh place in
    the Private Members Bill lottery - which gives 20 MPs a year the chance to bring forward their own
    piece of legislation for discussion before the house. To enter the lottery, you only have to provide
    the title of the bill; the text does not have to appear until it is presented to parliament. Now
    that Martlew has won a place in the lottery, he will be the target of pressure groups all wanting to
    get their own little piece in the bill. Martlew will have a draft of his bill, but it will be
    substantially changed before anyone gets a chance to see it.

    Time allocated in Parliament is restricted, and is given to Private Members Bills (on Fridays only)
    in order; so the winner of the lottery gets in first; then the second, etc; seventh position is
    quite a way down, and quite likely to run out of time in this Parliamentary session. Especially if
    the earlier bills run over, or if there is a lot of opposition to it.

    Regards,

    Pete.
     
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