Pro tour team scoring

[hwttdz]

I was just looking at how the pro tour was scored, here's a good ref http://velonews.com/race/int/articles/7690.0.html . The individual part seems easy enough but what really boggles me is the team scoring. Anyone know what on earth is going on there?

 

[musette]

Here's the March 13 UCI team ranking, just after the first race (Paris Nice), but before Tirreno results are included. The number of points is the final number.

This suggests that, at least for Paris Nice, the winning team in the team competition got 20 points, with each team that was one step down getting one less point.

1 CSC TEAM CSC DANEMARK 20
2 SDV SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR ESPAGNE 19
3 LSW LIBERTY SEGUROS - WÜRTH TEAM ESPAGNE 18
4 DSC DISCOVERY CHANNEL PRO CYCLING TEAM ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE 17
5 DVL DAVITAMON-LOTTO BELGIQUE 16
6 FAS FASSA BORTOLO ITALIE 15
7 RAB RABOBANK PAYS-BAS 14
8 COF COFIDIS, LE CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE FRANCE 13
9 BTL BOUYGUES TELECOM FRANCE 12
10 PHO PHONAK HEARING SYSTEMS SUISSE 10
11 IBA ILLES BALEARS ESPAGNE 9
12 LAM LAMPRE - CAFFITA ITALIE 8
13 C.A CREDIT AGRICOLE FRANCE 7
14 LIQ LIQUIGAS-BIANCHI ITALIE 6
15 QST QUICK STEP BELGIQUE 5
16 DOM DOMINA VACANZE ITALIE 4
17 GST GEROLSTEINER ALLEMAGNE 3
18 FDJ FRANÇAISE DES JEUX FRANCE 2
19 EUS EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI ESPAGNE

Here's the teams classification final results from Paris-Nice:

Teams classification

1 Team CSC 67.38.08
2 Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.17
3 Liberty Seguros-Würth 1.50
4 Discovery Channel Team 4.09
5 Davitamon-Lotto 7.07
6 Fassa Bortolo 10.46
7 Rabobank 12.08
8 Cofidis Credit Par Telephone 12.12
9 Bouygues Telecom 13.30
10 Ag2R Prevoyance 16.02
11 Phonak Hearing Systems 16.17
12 Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 17.09
13 Lampre-Caffita 17.42
14 Credit Agricole 20.22
15 Liquigas-Bianchi 23.47
16 Quick.Step 25.18
17 Domina Vacanze 26.51
18 Gerolsteiner 30.53
19 Francaise Des Jeux 36.05
20 Euskaltel-Euskadi 38.14

Each Pro Tour team's team classification is determined by adding up the team's top three finishers IN EACH STAGE of a stage race. Those finishers can be different from stage to stage within a given team, for the race, I think.

T-Mobile has no points because only two riders (Vino and Sevilla) finished the race. How sad.

The ProTour rules are here:

http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/2route-F.pdf

This sytem for the team classification ratings in the UCI Pro Tour has several consequences:

-- Winning the team classification in any given race and then being low in the team classification for other races is not a combination that is as useful as being consistently in the top five teams in most races. This is one of the ways that the UCI is trying to encourage better riders within each team to participate in a larger number of ProTour races. Query whether the teams care about the Pro Tour teams classification relative to other accolades.

-- Having a team with one superstar is not going to help the team as much on the teams classification, if the second and third rider on each stage are going to finish poorly. That is because the top three rides on a team for a given stage count.

-- Since stage races all appear to have 20 points maximum (?), otherwise more important stage races might count the same for the teams classification than previously less important stage races, so long as both races are on the Pro Tour. This presumably equates the teams' desire to put forth decent teams even for the weaker stage races, if they care about the teams classification at the Pro Tour level.

 

[musette]

Here's how the Pro Tour rewards consistency, not necessarily winning the teams classification in any given stage race.

Take Tirreno-Adriatico and Paris-Nice. Assume the current (penultimate) stage's team classifications are the final ones. Here's how many points the top 10 teams in Tirreno Adriatico would get (first number is points from that race; second number is total team points from that race and Paris-Nice).

Teams classification

1 Ceramica Panaria-Navigare 20; 20
2 T-Mobile Team 19; 19
3 Liberty Seguros Team 18; 36
4 Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 17; 34
5 Fassa Bortolo 16; 31
6 Euskaltel-Euskadi 15; 16
7 Gerolsteiner 14; 17
8 Rabobank 13; 27
9 Acqua & Sapone-Adria Mobil 12; 12
10 Domina Vacanze 11; 15

In other words, under this assumption, Liberty Seguros and Discovery would be #1 and #2, respectively, in the teams classification because (1) Ceramica, which may win the teams in Tirreno, did not participate in Paris-Nice, and (2) CSC, which won the Paris-Nice teams classification, did not do too well in that classification in Tireno.

 

[hwttdz]

So it's based on the teams classification for each race which is still determined by the times of the first three riders from a team on each stage. What happened between places 9 and 10 at P-N? Was there a non pro tour team in there? The individual leader gets to wear a jersey, but is there any jersey given at the end of the year to the winner? This is weird.

Thanks guys that's helping me understand more.

 

[musette]

Yes, there is a jump in the UCI teams standings between the following after Paris Nice:

BTL BOUYGUES TELECOM FRANCE 12
PHO PHONAK HEARING SYSTEMS SUISSE 10

That's because Ag2R was sandwiched between the two in Paris-Nice, and Ag2R is not a Pro-Tour team. So Ag2R sopped up 11 points, leaving Phonak with only 10.

 

[musette]

Several interesting observations:

-- As was the case for the teams classification in a given stage race, it was more useful to send riders out on long break-aways than to try for a bunch finish and hope one's sprinter won (because the sprinter bonus seconds are limited, but a breakaway can result in a chunk of time being gained for purposes of the team classification -- this usually means the people with low GC positions can try and go on breakways and gain time for purposes of the team classification).

-- Sprinters are not as useful because a stage win in a bunched finish with a sprint does not help a team interested in the teams classification, except for very small bonus seconds for the stage win.

 

[limerickman]

Ag2R team did not sop points.
Phonak - being given a ProTour spot - should have ensured that they earned the points won (fairly) by AG2R.
AG2R were invited to race by the P-N organisers, despite not being a ProTour team.
It is incumbent on all ProTour teams to win as many points as possible.

 

[musette]

Pro Tour teams don't have to win as many team classification points as possible. For example, even though there as signs DC cares a little bit about team classification points and DC cares about certain other Pro Tour races, DC could legitimately decide that it only cares about LA winning the TdF.

The T-Mobile team did horribly. Their websites states that Vino was their highest placed GC rider. No kidding -- highest placed finisher, out of 2.

 

[limerickman]

Pro Tour teams don't have to win as many team classification points as possible. For example, even though there as signs DC cares a little bit about team classification points and DC cares about certain other Pro Tour races, DC could legitimately decide that it only cares about LA winning the TdF.

It could - and the UCI could deem this to go against the ProTour ethic and decide legitimately to give the DC slot to another team.

 

[musette]

I don't think so. So long as the team sends riders to various races, it's not the team's fault that they don't try so hard in every race. Plus, who determines whether somebody is just in bad shape (Azevedo in Tour de Algarve, Paris-Nice) or not trying too hard? There are many reasons for lackluster performance -- saving energy for other races (that can't be unethical) or later stages of a race; saving energy to help teammates in case teammates need help; not confident in winning or otherwise lacking in mental motivation; feeling ill or otherwise not well; feeling tired from cycling activities or non-cycling activities ... AND... the biggie -- JUST GOT BEATEN BY OTHER CYCLISTS

 

[limerickman]

I don't think so. So long as the team sends riders to various races, it's not the team's fault that they don't try so hard in every race. Plus, who determines whether somebody is just in bad shape (Azevedo in Tour de Algarve, Paris-Nice) or not trying too hard? There are many reasons for lackluster performance -- saving energy for other races (that can't be unethical) or later stages of a race; saving energy to help teammates in case teammates need help; not confident in winning or otherwise lacking in mental motivation; feeling ill or otherwise not well; feeling tired from cycling activities or non-cycling activities ... AND... the biggie -- JUST GOT BEATEN BY OTHER CYCLISTS

The rules are explicit with regard to participation in the grand tours for example.

The ProTour is designed to move away from the "pick and choose" policies employed.
If teams don't perform - they don't earn ProTour points.
Quite simple really.

Therefore it's immaterial whether a rider is tired or saving energy or lacking motivation : his team will require him to race and to earn points.

 

[musette]

If one is a stronger team like DC, one is going to get the points as a team here and there. There won't be a concern about the team's forcing of the team's head honchos or their chief domestiques to race.

There are always weak Pro Tour teams, so the stronger Pro Tour teams don't really have to do anything other than attend all the races with whatever team (strong or not) they choose. The stronger, better-funded teams won't have to force their best riders to race that many races.

It's the weaker Pro Tour teams that have to do that. Like Lampre or Francaise des Jeux. Not DC or Liberty Seguros.

Plus, with some exceptions, the Pro Tour teams have four-year licenses. They can't really be kicked off absent some obvious violations, which not putting forth their best team at any given race does not represent. Plus, "Team B" or "Team C" at DC is enough to beat "Team A" of other Pro Tour teams in certain cases. Just ask the non-USPS teams that attended the Vuelta last year, for much of the race.

 

[limerickman]

Plus, "Team B" or "Team C" at DC is enough to beat "Team A" of other Pro Tour teams in certain cases. Just ask the non-USPS teams that attended the Vuelta last year, for much of the race.

I remember the Vuelta 2004 - that was the one where Landis exploded and died
while wearing amorillo.
He descended the leader board pretty quickly.
Still maybe he was in the B team as you say.

 

[musette]

1 LSW LIBERTY SEGUROS - WÜRTH TEAM ESPAGNE 36
2 DSC DISCOVERY CHANNEL PRO CYCLING TEAM ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE 34
3 FAS FASSA BORTOLO ITALIE 31
4 RAB RABOBANK PAYS-BAS 27
5 DVL DAVITAMON-LOTTO BELGIQUE 24
6 SDV SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR ESPAGNE 23
7 CSC TEAM CSC DANEMARK 20
8 COF COFIDIS, LE CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE FRANCE 20
9 PHO PHONAK HEARING SYSTEMS SUISSE 20
10 TMO T-MOBILE TEAM ALLEMAGNE 19
11 GST GEROLSTEINER ALLEMAGNE 17
12 EUS EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI ESPAGNE 16
13 C.A CREDIT AGRICOLE FRANCE 16
14 DOM DOMINA VACANZE ITALIE 15
15 BTL BOUYGUES TELECOM FRANCE 14
16 IBA ILLES BALEARS ESPAGNE 12
17 QST QUICK STEP BELGIQUE 11
18 LAM LAMPRE - CAFFITA ITALIE 8
19 LIQ LIQUIGAS-BIANCHI ITALIE 6
20 FDJ FRANÇAISE DES JEUX FRANCE 3

Interestingly, the teams classification for the Pro Tour does show DC doing very well. Better than Fasso Bortolo and some of the other sprinter-driven teams for reasons I mentioned.

 

[musette]

Interestingly, it is not only stage races that give Pro Tour team points, I have deduced. Since Milan San Remo was the third Pro Tour event and it changed the team standings, one-day Pro Tour events have team scoring events. However, I have not figured out how the team scoring is done for such events. See the analysis so far below.

After the third Pro Tour event (Milan San Remo), the following are the Team standings:

1 FAS FASSA BORTOLO ITALY 46 (From 31 --> Gain of 15 is less than Gain for Suanier Duval, even though Petacchi won Milan San Remo)
2 SDV SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR SPAIN 43 (Gain of 20)
3 LSW LIBERTY SEGUROS - WÜRTH TEAM SPAIN 41 (Gain of 5)
4 RAB RABOBANK NETHERLANDS 39 (Gain of 12)
5 DVL DAVITAMON-LOTTO BELGIUM 38 (Gain of 14)
6 TMO T-MOBILE TEAM GERMANY 37 (Gain of 18 --> Gain greater than Fassa's of 15)
7 CSC TEAM CSC DENMARK 36 (Gain of 16 --> Gain greater than Fassa's of 15)
8 GST GEROLSTEINER GERMANY 36 (Gain of 19 --> Gain greater than Fassa's of 15)
9 DSC DISCOVERY CHANNEL PRO CYCLING TEAM UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 36 (Gain of 2)
10 C.A CREDIT AGRICOLE FRANCE 29 (Gain of 13)
11 PHO PHONAK HEARING SYSTEMS SWITZERLAND 29 (Gain of 9)
12 BTL BOUYGUES TELECOM FRANCE 24 (Gain of 10)
13 LIQ LIQUIGAS-BIANCHI ITALY 23 (Gain of 17 --> Gain greater than Fassa's of 15)
14 QST QUICK STEP BELGIUM 22 (Gain of 11)
15 COF COFIDIS, LE CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE FRANCE 20 (Gain of 0)
16 EUS EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI SPAIN 19 (Gain of 3)
17 IBA ILLES BALEARS SPAIN 16 (Gain of 4)
18 DOM DOMINA VACANZE ITALY 15 (Gain of 0)
19 LAM LAMPRE - CAFFITA ITALY 15 (Gain of 7)
20 FDJ FRANÇAISE DES JEUX FRANCE 9 (Gain of 6)

Rearranging the teams by gain from Tirreno-Adriatico to Milan San-Remo gets the following in terms of most gained, for the top six teams in this regard:

2 SDV SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR SPAIN 43 (Gain of 20)
8 GST GEROLSTEINER GERMANY 36 (Gain of 19)
6 TMO T-MOBILE TEAM GERMANY 37 (Gain of 18)
13 LIQ LIQUIGAS-BIANCHI ITALY 23 (Gain of 17)
7 CSC TEAM CSC DENMARK 36 (Gain of 16)
1 FAS FASSA BORTOLO ITALY 46 (Gain of 15)

CASE I: Saunier Duval Versus Gerolsteiner

Saunier Duval --
10 Manuele Mori (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 7.11.39 (st as Petacchi)
20 Angel Edo (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir st
58 Francisco J. Ventoso Alberdi (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.38
Total time lost by top 3 team cyclists relative to Petacchi: 0.38

Gerolsteiner --
2 Danilo Hondo (Ger) Gerolsteiner 7.11.39 (st as Petacchi)
24 Peter Wrolich (Aut) Gerolsteiner st
30 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner st
Total time lost by top 3 team cyclists relative to Petacchi: Zero

That Saunier Duval gained the most points (20) while Gerolstiner gained only 19 shows that the top 3 cyclists on each team are not counted for one-day races. Otherwise, Gerolsteiner would have won over Saunier Duval, since Gerolsteiner had 3 people who were same time as Petacchi, and Saunier only had one.

We also know, from the get-go, that it is not the top single cyclist that determines the team scoring in a one-day Pro Tour race. Because, if that were the rule, Petacchi's Fassa would have scored the maximum 20 points and not gotten the 15 it actually received.

To assist everybody in getting to the answer, here are the top three cyclists from each team, for the other teams that gained a lot of Pro Tour team points from Milan San-Remo. Perhaps more than three riders are relevant?

T-Mobile
14 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team st as Petacchi
18 Andreas Klier (Ger) T-Mobile Team st
34 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team st

Liquigas
9 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi st as Petacchi
27 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi st
36 Mario Cipollini (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi st

CSC
23 Kurt-Asle Arvesen (Nor) Team CSC st as Petacchi
26 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Team CSC st
31 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC st

Fassa
1 Alessandro Petacchi (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 7.11.39 (40.866 km/h)
40 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Fassa Bortolo 0.05
43 Fabio Sacchi (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 0.09