Probiotics?



M

Martin Lynch

Guest
Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment of
the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the intestines
as they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive (L.
acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
 
"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
> of the stomach?
>
> Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
> intestines as they are supposed to.
>
> Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
> (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your
skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
 
"EK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
> can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
> plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
> survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
> microflora.

The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what food you are eating. Normally
the stomach will go alkaline to allow the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food,
then over about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a 2 pH. This pH
change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the proteolytic ( protein ) digesting
enzymes. This also affects the bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may
just become dormant.

The best way to grow the correct bacteria for a healthy colon is to stop eating meat ( meat
stimulates bacteria which turns the colon alkaline ) and eat some corn starch. The starch cannot be
digested by our enzymes and reaches the colon intact. There, the bacteria will act upon the starch
and turn the colon slightly acidic.

Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on
> your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK

You are wrong there. The strong acid combined with the action of the pepsin would most definately
eat a hole in your skin.

DrC PhD
 
EK wrote:
> "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
>>of the stomach?
>>
>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
>>intestines as they are supposed to.
>>
>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
>>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
>
>
> Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
> can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
> plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
> survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
> microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your
> skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
>

True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few
to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the reasons
the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!

The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells dont
have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach acid are
designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most gut bacteria
and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most of them are
killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

Scott.
 
This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.

"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
> of the stomach?
>
> Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
> intestines as they are supposed to.
>
> Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
> (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
 
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
>can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
>plus protected by rigid cell walls?

Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice thick layer of mucus.

PF
 
On 25 Dec 2003 12:21:05 -0800, [email protected] (drceephd) wrote:
>
>The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what food you are eating. Normally
>the stomach will go alkaline to allow the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food,
>then over about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a 2 pH. This pH
>change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the proteolytic ( protein ) digesting
>enzymes. This also affects the bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may
>just become dormant.

The gastric pH drops after a meal because of the food in the stomach, not because the stomach is
intentionally lowering the pH. In fact, eating stimulates acid production in the stomach.

PF
 
"Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> EK wrote:
> > "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
> >>of the stomach?
> >>
> >>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
> >>intestines as they are supposed to.
> >>
> >>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
> >>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
> >
> >
> > Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
> > such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
> > such, plus protected by
rigid
> > cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't survive through the
> > stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal microflora. Buy the way,
> > if you put some stomach jiuce
on
> > your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
> >
>
> True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
> of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a
> few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the
> reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!

Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a thick layer of
gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the stomach,
because the food does not spen much longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat
of dry gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are viable, which I
guess is not too much.
>
> The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells
> dont have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach
> acid are designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most gut
> bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most of them
> are killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected from harsh conditions
that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice put on a greasy skin would cause almost
nothing compared to a drop put on degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions as
well to stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...

>
> Scott.
 
"PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
> >such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
> >such, plus protected by
rigid
> >cell walls?
>
> Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice thick layer of mucus.

So bacteria could do the same for a change. Many bacteria are capable of producing a thick
mucous capsules.
>
> PF
 
>Subject: Re: Probiotics?
>From: "Gymmy Bob" [email protected]
>Date: 12/26/03 12:24 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>

>This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
>liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.

The pH changes primarily control enzyme activity, although they do influence bacterial growth and
activity as well.

The saliva in the mouth must be alkaline for your ptyalin to be active. The stomach starts out
alkaline to allow the ptyalin to complete carb digestion. The stomach then goes acidic, stopping
carb digestion and starting protein digestion. Very little fat digestion occurs in the stomach.

Upon entering the small intestine, the gastric fluid must be immediately and completly neutralized
to stop the pespsin from digesting the tissue of the small intestine. Additionally, the enzymes of
the pancreas need an alkaline pH to be active. Failure to properly and completely neutralize the
acidic material from the stomach, can and will result in ulcers. You should note that duodanal
ulcers form where stomach acids and enzymes are at their highest concentration.

DrC PhD.
 
Yeah, it's for a reason - but the reason isnt to allow bacteria to get through!

Gymmy Bob wrote:

> This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
> liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.
>
> "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
>>of the stomach?
>>
>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
>>intestines as they are supposed to.
>>
>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
>>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
>
 
EK wrote:

> "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:AAKGb.65098$aT.51242@news-
> server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>>
>>EK wrote:
>>
>>>"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
>>>>of the stomach?
>>>>
>>>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
>>>>intestines as they are supposed to.
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
>>>>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
>>>such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
>>>such, plus protected by
>
> rigid
>
>>>cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't survive through the
>>>stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if
>>>you put some stomach jiuce
>
> on
>
>>>your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
>>>
>>
>>True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
>>of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a
>>few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the
>>reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!
>
>
> Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a thick layer of
> gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the stomach,
> because the food does not spen much longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat
> of dry gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are viable, which I
> guess is not too much.
>

Yeah, certainly if they're encapsulated they'll survive longer. Lots of those capsules are designed
to be solid at low pH and break down only when they become alkaline (i.e. after the stomach). So in
that case, most of them would get through. I dont know anything about the viability inside the
capsules. The ones that I doubted are products like Yakult and similar. Most of the cells in that
would not survive, I think.

>>The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells
>>dont have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach
>>acid are designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most
>>gut bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most
>>of them are killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.
>
> I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected from harsh conditions
> that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice put on a greasy skin would cause almost
> nothing compared to a drop put on degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions
> as well to stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...
>

Yup, but not bugs :)
 
Either top post or trim the **** out of the post. Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

"Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:V_2Hb.65923$aT.42472@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
> EK wrote:
>
> > "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:AAKGb.65098$aT.51242@news-
> > server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> >>
> >>EK wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>news:[email protected]...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic
> >>>>environment of the stomach?
> >>>>
> >>>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
> >>>>intestines as they are supposed to.
> >>>>
> >>>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can
> >>>>survive (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that
are
> >>>made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same
> >>>or similar proteins and such, plus protected by
> >
> > rigid
> >
> >>>cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations
don't
> >>>survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to
help
> >>>establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce
> >
> > on
> >
> >>>your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
> >>>
> >>
> >>True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast
> >>majority of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it
> >>only takes a few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly.
> >>One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!
> >
> >
> > Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with
a
> > thick layer of gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the
> > stomach, because the food does not spen much longer time i
 
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.

Trim ****. NEVER top post.

>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

PF
 
I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.

Paper styles are obsolete.

Welcome to the 90s

"PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.
>
> Trim ****. NEVER top post.
>
> >Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
>
> Then get a new ISP.
>
> PF
 
PF Riley wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.
>
> Trim ****. NEVER top post.
>

I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:

- I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as they often are) the message
still makes some sense. True, I often trim some of the message, but not always.

- I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes sense. I dont care how people
post, as long as it is constant. If there has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been a
bottom post, I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top post, then
bottom post, then top post again.

>>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
>
> Then get a new ISP.
>

Agreed.

Scott.
 
Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should post in what manner. But here
is my opinion.

1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll top post to keep the flow so
it makes sense to anyone reading it later on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll do for
the same reason.

I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are broken and you want to know
what the rest of the discussion is about, it is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also post
throughout the original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post like it or not.

Scott.

Gymmy Bob wrote:
> I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.
>
> Paper styles are obsolete.
>
> Welcome to the 90s
>
> "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.
>>
>>Trim ****. NEVER top post.
>>
>>
>>>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
>>
>>Then get a new ISP.
>>
>>PF
>
 
It is your assumption that I do it through lazyness.

Scott.

Gymmy Bob wrote:

> I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.
>
> Paper styles are obsolete.
>
> Welcome to the 90s
>
> "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.
>>
>>Trim ****. NEVER top post.
>>
>>
>>>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
>>
>>Then get a new ISP.
>>
>>PF
>
 
The previous posts tell the story if somebody wants the history. When you bottom post readers have
to wade through piles of repeated history to get to todays message. Most won't even bother unless it
is super interesting. Not many here have the literary skills to be chased through a long text
repititive header, more header and two lines of real text.

If you want people to read your post then top post.

If you don't care if people read your message...then why post at all?

"Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%BnHb.67075$aT.42279@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
> PF Riley wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Either top post or trim the **** out of the post.
> >
> > Trim ****. NEVER top post.
> >
>
> I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:
>
> - I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as they often are) the
> message still makes some sense. True, I often trim some of the message, but not always.
>
> - I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes sense. I dont care how people
> post, as long as it is constant. If there has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been
> a bottom post, I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top post, then
> bottom post, then top post again.
>
> >>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
> >
> > Then get a new ISP.
> >
>
> Agreed.
>
> Scott.
 
I prefer when I post for people to read it and not discard it like most do with bottom posting. This
truncating feature offered by ISPs, newsreaders and newservers is great when bandwidth is a premium,
like it is for the majority of users. Mexico and South America usually doesn't see these features as
they have so much more bandwidth than most of North Americans. The USA, Canada and much of Europe
have bandwidth problems with their dialup wireless and and wired modem services.

Most considerate people top post or at least trim out the repetitive garbage and make their point in
a paragragh or two. The ones that don't usually just want to see themselves post and are not that
interesting to continue that far down the page.

"Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:BxnHb.67070$aT.58262@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...
> Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should post in what manner. But
> here is my opinion.
>
> 1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
> 2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll top post to keep the flow
> so it makes sense to anyone reading it later on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll
> do for the same reason.
>
> I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are broken and you want to
> know what the rest of the discussion is about, it is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also
> post throughout the original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post like
> it or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom Back