Probiotics?

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by Martin Lynch, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. Martin Lynch

    Martin Lynch Guest

    Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment of
    the stomach?

    Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the intestines
    as they are supposed to.

    Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive (L.
    acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
     
    Tags:


  2. Ek

    Ek Guest

    "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    > of the stomach?
    >
    > Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    > intestines as they are supposed to.
    >
    > Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    > (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)

    Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
    can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
    plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
    survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
    microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your
    skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
     
  3. Drceephd

    Drceephd Guest

    "EK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
    > can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
    > plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
    > survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
    > microflora.

    The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what food you are eating. Normally
    the stomach will go alkaline to allow the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food,
    then over about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a 2 pH. This pH
    change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the proteolytic ( protein ) digesting
    enzymes. This also affects the bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may
    just become dormant.

    The best way to grow the correct bacteria for a healthy colon is to stop eating meat ( meat
    stimulates bacteria which turns the colon alkaline ) and eat some corn starch. The starch cannot be
    digested by our enzymes and reaches the colon intact. There, the bacteria will act upon the starch
    and turn the colon slightly acidic.

    Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on
    > your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK

    You are wrong there. The strong acid combined with the action of the pepsin would most definately
    eat a hole in your skin.

    DrC PhD
     
  4. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    EK wrote:
    > "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    >>of the stomach?
    >>
    >>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    >>intestines as they are supposed to.
    >>
    >>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    >>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
    >
    >
    > Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
    > can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
    > plus protected by rigid cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
    > survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal
    > microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your
    > skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
    >

    True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
    of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few
    to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the reasons
    the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!

    The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells dont
    have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach acid are
    designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most gut bacteria
    and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most of them are
    killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

    Scott.
     
  5. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
    liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.

    "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    > of the stomach?
    >
    > Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    > intestines as they are supposed to.
    >
    > Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    > (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
     
  6. Pf Riley

    Pf Riley Guest

    On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and such
    >can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such,
    >plus protected by rigid cell walls?

    Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice thick layer of mucus.

    PF
     
  7. Pf Riley

    Pf Riley Guest

    On 25 Dec 2003 12:21:05 -0800, [email protected] (drceephd) wrote:
    >
    >The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what food you are eating. Normally
    >the stomach will go alkaline to allow the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food,
    >then over about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a 2 pH. This pH
    >change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the proteolytic ( protein ) digesting
    >enzymes. This also affects the bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may
    >just become dormant.

    The gastric pH drops after a meal because of the food in the stomach, not because the stomach is
    intentionally lowering the pH. In fact, eating stimulates acid production in the stomach.

    PF
     
  8. Ek

    Ek Guest

    "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > EK wrote:
    > > "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    > >>of the stomach?
    > >>
    > >>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    > >>intestines as they are supposed to.
    > >>
    > >>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    > >>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
    > >
    > >
    > > Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
    > > such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
    > > such, plus protected by
    rigid
    > > cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't survive through the
    > > stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal microflora. Buy the way,
    > > if you put some stomach jiuce
    on
    > > your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
    > >
    >
    > True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
    > of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a
    > few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the
    > reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!

    Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a thick layer of
    gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the stomach,
    because the food does not spen much longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat
    of dry gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are viable, which I
    guess is not too much.
    >
    > The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells
    > dont have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach
    > acid are designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most gut
    > bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most of them
    > are killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

    I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected from harsh conditions
    that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice put on a greasy skin would cause almost
    nothing compared to a drop put on degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions as
    well to stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...

    >
    > Scott.
     
  9. Ek

    Ek Guest

    "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email protected]crosoft.net> wrote:
    > >
    > >Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
    > >such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
    > >such, plus protected by
    rigid
    > >cell walls?
    >
    > Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice thick layer of mucus.

    So bacteria could do the same for a change. Many bacteria are capable of producing a thick
    mucous capsules.
    >
    > PF
     
  10. Drceephd

    Drceephd Guest

    >Subject: Re: Probiotics?
    >From: "Gymmy Bob" [email protected]
    >Date: 12/26/03 12:24 AM Eastern Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>

    >This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
    >liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.

    The pH changes primarily control enzyme activity, although they do influence bacterial growth and
    activity as well.

    The saliva in the mouth must be alkaline for your ptyalin to be active. The stomach starts out
    alkaline to allow the ptyalin to complete carb digestion. The stomach then goes acidic, stopping
    carb digestion and starting protein digestion. Very little fat digestion occurs in the stomach.

    Upon entering the small intestine, the gastric fluid must be immediately and completly neutralized
    to stop the pespsin from digesting the tissue of the small intestine. Additionally, the enzymes of
    the pancreas need an alkaline pH to be active. Failure to properly and completely neutralize the
    acidic material from the stomach, can and will result in ulcers. You should note that duodanal
    ulcers form where stomach acids and enzymes are at their highest concentration.

    DrC PhD.
     
  11. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    Yeah, it's for a reason - but the reason isnt to allow bacteria to get through!

    Gymmy Bob wrote:

    > This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with byle from the
    > liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This, I would assume, is for a reason.
    >
    > "Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    >>of the stomach?
    >>
    >>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    >>intestines as they are supposed to.
    >>
    >>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    >>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
    >
     
  12. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    EK wrote:

    > "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > server.bigpond.net.au...
    >
    >>
    >>EK wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic environment
    >>>>of the stomach?
    >>>>
    >>>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    >>>>intestines as they are supposed to.
    >>>>
    >>>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can survive
    >>>>(L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are made of proteins and
    >>>such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same or similar proteins and
    >>>such, plus protected by
    >
    > rigid
    >
    >>>cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't survive through the
    >>>stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if
    >>>you put some stomach jiuce
    >
    > on
    >
    >>>your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
    >>>
    >>
    >>True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast majority
    >>of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a
    >>few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly. One of the
    >>reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!
    >
    >
    > Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a thick layer of
    > gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the stomach,
    > because the food does not spen much longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat
    > of dry gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are viable, which I
    > guess is not too much.
    >

    Yeah, certainly if they're encapsulated they'll survive longer. Lots of those capsules are designed
    to be solid at low pH and break down only when they become alkaline (i.e. after the stomach). So in
    that case, most of them would get through. I dont know anything about the viability inside the
    capsules. The ones that I doubted are products like Yakult and similar. Most of the cells in that
    would not survive, I think.

    >>The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though! Also, bacterial cells
    >>dont have many layers of epidermal cells to protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach
    >>acid are designed to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc). Most
    >>gut bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these protective mechanisms and thus most
    >>of them are killed. I think a lot of (but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.
    >
    > I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected from harsh conditions
    > that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice put on a greasy skin would cause almost
    > nothing compared to a drop put on degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions
    > as well to stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...
    >

    Yup, but not bugs :)
     
  13. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Either top post or trim the crap out of the post. Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

    "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    server.bigpond.net.au...
    >
    >
    > EK wrote:
    >
    > > "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > server.bigpond.net.au...
    > >
    > >>
    > >>EK wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>"Martin Lynch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>>news:[email protected]...
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic supplement survive the acidic
    > >>>>environment of the stomach?
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes, hence they could not popululate the
    > >>>>intestines as they are supposed to.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of conditions these probiotics can
    > >>>>survive (L. acidophilus, bifidobacterium, etc.)
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that
    are
    > >>>made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the bacteria made of same
    > >>>or similar proteins and such, plus protected by
    > >
    > > rigid
    > >
    > >>>cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations
    don't
    > >>>survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to
    help
    > >>>establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce
    > >
    > > on
    > >
    > >>>your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :) EK
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the stomach acid. The vast
    > >>majority of the bugs in probiotic product are killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it
    > >>only takes a few to survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very rapidly.
    > >>One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to stop invaders getting in there!
    > >
    > >
    > > Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with
    a
    > > thick layer of gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such capsules would survive the
    > > stomach, because the food does not spen much longer time i
     
  14. Pf Riley

    Pf Riley Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.

    Trim crap. NEVER top post.

    >Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

    Then get a new ISP.

    PF
     
  15. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.

    Paper styles are obsolete.

    Welcome to the 90s

    "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.
    >
    > Trim crap. NEVER top post.
    >
    > >Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
    >
    > Then get a new ISP.
    >
    > PF
     
  16. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    PF Riley wrote:

    > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.
    >
    > Trim crap. NEVER top post.
    >

    I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:

    - I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as they often are) the message
    still makes some sense. True, I often trim some of the message, but not always.

    - I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes sense. I dont care how people
    post, as long as it is constant. If there has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been a
    bottom post, I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top post, then
    bottom post, then top post again.

    >>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
    >
    > Then get a new ISP.
    >

    Agreed.

    Scott.
     
  17. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should post in what manner. But here
    is my opinion.

    1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
    2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll top post to keep the flow so
    it makes sense to anyone reading it later on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll do for
    the same reason.

    I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are broken and you want to know
    what the rest of the discussion is about, it is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also post
    throughout the original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post like it or not.

    Scott.

    Gymmy Bob wrote:
    > I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.
    >
    > Paper styles are obsolete.
    >
    > Welcome to the 90s
    >
    > "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.
    >>
    >>Trim crap. NEVER top post.
    >>
    >>
    >>>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
    >>
    >>Then get a new ISP.
    >>
    >>PF
    >
     
  18. Scott Coutts

    Scott Coutts Guest

    It is your assumption that I do it through lazyness.

    Scott.

    Gymmy Bob wrote:

    > I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.
    >
    > Paper styles are obsolete.
    >
    > Welcome to the 90s
    >
    > "PF Riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.
    >>
    >>Trim crap. NEVER top post.
    >>
    >>
    >>>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
    >>
    >>Then get a new ISP.
    >>
    >>PF
    >
     
  19. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    The previous posts tell the story if somebody wants the history. When you bottom post readers have
    to wade through piles of repeated history to get to todays message. Most won't even bother unless it
    is super interesting. Not many here have the literary skills to be chased through a long text
    repititive header, more header and two lines of real text.

    If you want people to read your post then top post.

    If you don't care if people read your message...then why post at all?

    "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:%[email protected]
    server.bigpond.net.au...
    >
    >
    > PF Riley wrote:
    >
    > > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >>Either top post or trim the crap out of the post.
    > >
    > > Trim crap. NEVER top post.
    > >
    >
    > I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:
    >
    > - I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as they often are) the
    > message still makes some sense. True, I often trim some of the message, but not always.
    >
    > - I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes sense. I dont care how people
    > post, as long as it is constant. If there has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been
    > a bottom post, I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top post, then
    > bottom post, then top post again.
    >
    > >>Long posts are truncated by many ISPs
    > >
    > > Then get a new ISP.
    > >
    >
    > Agreed.
    >
    > Scott.
     
  20. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    I prefer when I post for people to read it and not discard it like most do with bottom posting. This
    truncating feature offered by ISPs, newsreaders and newservers is great when bandwidth is a premium,
    like it is for the majority of users. Mexico and South America usually doesn't see these features as
    they have so much more bandwidth than most of North Americans. The USA, Canada and much of Europe
    have bandwidth problems with their dialup wireless and and wired modem services.

    Most considerate people top post or at least trim out the repetitive garbage and make their point in
    a paragragh or two. The ones that don't usually just want to see themselves post and are not that
    interesting to continue that far down the page.

    "Scott Coutts" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    server.bigpond.net.au...
    > Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should post in what manner. But
    > here is my opinion.
    >
    > 1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
    > 2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll top post to keep the flow
    > so it makes sense to anyone reading it later on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll
    > do for the same reason.
    >
    > I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are broken and you want to
    > know what the rest of the discussion is about, it is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also
    > post throughout the original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post like
    > it or not.
     
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