Problems shifting into small chainring - normal or defect?

[ghunter]

After over a decade away from riding I've bought a Lemond Alpe D'Huez:

http://2006.lemondbikes.com/2006_bikes/alpe_d_huez.shtml

Mine has an Ultegra front and 105 rear derailleur, but other than that is exactly as described.

My issue is in shifting to the inner/smallest chainring when there's any torque on the crank. Sometimes the chain just locks in between chainrings, and sometimes it doesn't even shift (pressing the lever in results in zero movement). I have no problems shifting it lower when I'm on a flat road.

The problem is that I usually want to make this shift when I'm on a steeper or longer hill and maintain a smooth gear shifting pattern. I live on a small mountain outside Seattle, so 15-20% inclines are pretty common for my rides. I've had it in the shop three times now to get adjusted, and they just think I'm pushing the limits of the mechanism given where I'm riding.

I'm now shifting into the inner chainring before I get to the gnarly hills, which is what the bike store suggested and what some other posts in the archives here imply. I'm in the upper third of the cassette when I'm doing this, so it's not a case of a sharp angle between front and back.

My question is... is this just normal for a triple? Does the more complex gear ratio mean that shifting down under torque isn't possible with these components? Should I just shut the hell up and ride, or should I be expecting more from a $1,500 bike?

With that said, I LOVE this bike when I ride it as a double. I want to kick it when I ride it as a triple.

 

[jerrek]

I have ridden a triple quite a lot and i would say that the advice you have received is correct - not just for a triple but most of the people i know with compacts need to also need to be careful when shifting down the front.
Aside from that though it only takes a moments relax on the pedals to give you a chance to shift down. Its not that hard and you don't loose to much speed. If the hill was so steep that i knew that the triple was required then i would change at the bottom and spin for a few meters until speed reduces. If you really need it then it won't take long for you to slow down.

Tell you the truth i now ride a double most of the time but i have never considered that if i was riding up a hill i should change down the front without reducing the pressure on the crank first.

 

[bikemistress]

If you are in the middle chain ring and are shifting down to the "granny gear," you might try being in the middle of the cassette as opposed to the upper third. See if that helps. I have a triple on my road/race bike because I have a bad back but only use the granny gear for super steep climbs or at the end of a ride if I am getting tired as I live out in the hills. I always try to shift in the middleish cog as otherwise, I sometimes accidentally shift into granny gear when shifting from the large chain ring into the middle chain ring and that is annoying and a real pain in the _ _ _.

 

[stressbusters]

I have a Trek 5900 and was having a similiar problem shifting my triple until Mr. Holland (from Holland bikes) took off the cables underneath and put on some plastic coverings. Seems the cables had worn grooves into the plate and they would stick there. It was getting to the point that I was using all of my weight to pull the gears into the place I wanted them. Now they easily slide and there is not a problem.

PS: I am getting a new Holland Exogrid in about seven weeks...can't wait!! In the meantime my Trek is ALOT more fun to ride

PPS: I am coming up from southern California to do the Seattle to Portland ride...are you doing it?

 

[ghunter]

Bikemistress, thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying all sorts of combinations now. My last 1/2 mile is the steepest and my legs are usually tired out by the time I reach this part.

I have a Trek 5900 and was having a similiar problem shifting my triple until Mr. Holland (from Holland bikes) took off the cables underneath and put on some plastic coverings. Seems the cables had worn grooves into the plate and they would stick there. It was getting to the point that I was using all of my weight to pull the gears into the place I wanted them. Now they easily slide and there is not a problem.

I'll take a look at that. My derailleur has been adjusted three different times now (not including the initial setup) and each time there's a different problem. Now, I can't shift from the inner chainring to the middle - it just skips all the way to the outside ring. Pain in the ass!

PPS: I am coming up from southern California to do the Seattle to Portland ride...are you doing it?

I need to be in a bit better condition so this year is out, but I am planning on doing it next year if I can find some friends to join me. My wife isn't a rider so she could drive the support vehicle

 

[Eden]

Bikemistress, thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying all sorts of combinations now. My last 1/2 mile is the steepest and my legs are usually tired out by the time I reach this part.

I'll take a look at that. My derailleur has been adjusted three different times now (not including the initial setup) and each time there's a different problem. Now, I can't shift from the inner chainring to the middle - it just skips all the way to the outside ring. Pain in the ass!

I need to be in a bit better condition so this year is out, but I am planning on doing it next year if I can find some friends to join me. My wife isn't a rider so she could drive the support vehicle

It's much more likely that you just need to get used to shifting a triple. As one of the previous posters said, you need to anticipate the shift and not try to shift down when the chain is under tension - as it can be near to impossible at that point. Triples are also much more finiky and you stand a much greater chance of dropping the chain if you don't anticipate your shifts.
btw - it would be better to get your wife into riding and take her along on a bike for the STP than to have her driving. Personal support vehicles are HIGHLY discouraged - though they can't be prohibited since they are public roads, but they just cause more tie ups for already upset motorists and are hazardous to the 100's of other riders so Cascade, who provides excellent support for the ride mind you, would really prefer you do not bring along any extra traffic.

 

[ghunter]

It's much more likely that you just need to get used to shifting a triple. As one of the previous posters said, you need to anticipate the shift and not try to shift down when the chain is under tension - as it can be near to impossible at that point. Triples are also much more finiky and you stand a much greater chance of dropping the chain if you don't anticipate your shifts.

I guess I'm just surprised that moden derailleurs are so finicky. So many things have changed for the better since I've been away from the sport, but this is the one negative. Personally, I prefer the non-indexed shifters on the down tube - simpler really was better.

I know which tech I like at the store now after repeated setups, so I'm going back to get him to do it and then I'm going to adapt to the bike's nuances.

btw - it would be better to get your wife into riding and take her along on a bike for the STP than to have her driving. Personal support vehicles are HIGHLY discouraged - though they can't be prohibited since they are public roads, but they just cause more tie ups for already upset motorists and are hazardous to the 100's of other riders so Cascade, who provides excellent support for the ride mind you, would really prefer you do not bring along any extra traffic.

Another good tip. Thanks.

 

[daveornee]

After over a decade away from riding I've bought a Lemond Alpe D'Huez:

http://2006.lemondbikes.com/2006_bikes/alpe_d_huez.shtml

Mine has an Ultegra front and 105 rear derailleur, but other than that is exactly as described.

My issue is in shifting to the inner/smallest chainring when there's any torque on the crank. Sometimes the chain just locks in between chainrings, and sometimes it doesn't even shift (pressing the lever in results in zero movement). I have no problems shifting it lower when I'm on a flat road.

The problem is that I usually want to make this shift when I'm on a steeper or longer hill and maintain a smooth gear shifting pattern. I live on a small mountain outside Seattle, so 15-20% inclines are pretty common for my rides. I've had it in the shop three times now to get adjusted, and they just think I'm pushing the limits of the mechanism given where I'm riding.

I'm now shifting into the inner chainring before I get to the gnarly hills, which is what the bike store suggested and what some other posts in the archives here imply. I'm in the upper third of the cassette when I'm doing this, so it's not a case of a sharp angle between front and back.

My question is... is this just normal for a triple? Does the more complex gear ratio mean that shifting down under torque isn't possible with these components? Should I just shut the hell up and ride, or should I be expecting more from a $1,500 bike?

With that said, I LOVE this bike when I ride it as a double. I want to kick it when I ride it as a triple.

Will a Jump Stop fit?
http://www.gvtc.com/~ngear/whatis.html
This can let you "forget about" the inside FD stop and "help" the FD spring have a chance to more easily derail the chain and let the Jump Stop keep the chain from overshifting and "plop" it on the granny ring. We use Jump Stop on our tandems and touring bicycles (everything that has a tripple for that matter).
Reducing friction in the cable/housing/frame routing will help the spring in the FD do it's thing. Reducing pedal pressure for a fraction of a second until the chain derailment/re-engagement also helps. Make sure the chain line is as good as you can get it and the RD drop-out is in alignment.
Your approach to a set of solutions needs to be as individualized as you are and the rides and conditions dictate.
Even the condition of your chain/cogs/chain rings makes a difference. HG chains do shift differently than SRAM as an example. What you pay for the chain is not an indication of how well it will work for you.

 

[alfeng]

After over a decade away from riding I've bought a Lemond Alpe D'Huez:

http://2006.lemondbikes.com/2006_bikes/alpe_d_huez.shtml

Mine has an Ultegra front and 105 rear derailleur, but other than that is exactly as described.

My issue is in shifting to the inner/smallest chainring when there's any torque on the crank. Sometimes the chain just locks in between chainrings, and sometimes it doesn't even shift (pressing the lever in results in zero movement). I have no problems shifting it lower when I'm on a flat road.

The problem is that I usually want to make this shift when I'm on a steeper or longer hill and maintain a smooth gear shifting pattern. I live on a small mountain outside Seattle, so 15-20% inclines are pretty common for my rides. I've had it in the shop three times now to get adjusted, and they just think I'm pushing the limits of the mechanism given where I'm riding.

I'm now shifting into the inner chainring before I get to the gnarly hills, which is what the bike store suggested and what some other posts in the archives here imply. I'm in the upper third of the cassette when I'm doing this, so it's not a case of a sharp angle between front and back.

My question is... is this just normal for a triple? Does the more complex gear ratio mean that shifting down under torque isn't possible with these components? Should I just shut the hell up and ride, or should I be expecting more from a $1,500 bike?

With that said, I LOVE this bike when I ride it as a double. I want to kick it when I ride it as a triple.

Interesting ...

When I was using 9-speed Ultegra 6500 STI shifters, I opted to switch to a triple specifically so I could bail out onto the granny rather than suffer with a balky downshift on the rear ...

Fortunately for me, although I was using Shimano (everyone else was, after all), I had a set of Campagnolo shifters which I just hadn't gotten around to mounting/testing (you know, unwrap the bars, un-mount one set of levers & mount the other, re-run the cables, re-wrap the bars ... for what?).

At the time, the only person I knew who had tried the older, 8-speed shifters said that he didn't like them because of the thumb shifters. I should have known better than to trust his observation because he rides a recumbent half the time?!?

So, I was just about to revert to downtube shifters, but since I had the Campagnolo ERGO shifters (could they be better than the Shimano STI shifters?), I figured I might as well give them a chance (my other remaining option was to take my Rapid Rise rear derailleur off my MTB and give it a try).

Well, on the first part of the climb (~10 miles), I pre-shifted before each change in the incline as if they were Shimano shifters ... at some point, on a false flat a few miles from the "top" of the climb, I downshifted on the rear ... thought that the shifter had failed because I didn't feel or hear ANYTHING happen (you know, a hesitation in the chain moving from one cog to another) ... sure enough, I looked down & back, and the chain was on a different cog ... tried it a few more times -- effortless shifting.

On steeper inclines, no problem!

A pair of Campagnolo shifters go for between $80US & $300+US ... strictly dependent on the bling-factor you are after and whether they are used/new.

I recommend almost any pre-2007 ERGO shifter ... okay, you want almost any one with the current lever style -- the Veloce are the best value (figure about $120US, +/-, on eBay) ... if you get a 10-speed Campagnolo shifter, it will easily index to a 9-speed Shimano cassette when mated with an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur if you use the hubbub.com alternate rear derailleur cable anchor position (@ 3 o'clock) -- http://204.2.107.172/articles_ergopower.html.

This REALLY WORKS! I've tried/used it with an XTR, XT, Ultegra (6503) & 105 (5500) rear derailleurs.

If you get a 9-speed ERGO shifter, there are some minor indexing issues which are resolved with a little more "effort" ...

The front Campagnolo shifter will work with absolutely any front derailleur.

You can probably sell your Shimano shifters for than the cost of the Veloce shifters!

BTW. If your bike has 10-speed Shimano components, then you'll get MORE when you go to resell them on eBay ...

FWIW. Supposedly, the new SRAM shifters will downshift without problems ... but, why pay the premium?

 

[ghunter]

The Jumpstop seems like a no-brainer. For $10 it's worth trying for sure.

The very last bike I test rode in the 90's was a Bianchi equipped with mid-grade Campagnolo and I was in heaven with how smooth it shifted relative to my 105. I just couldn't find a bike locally with Campy on it in the $1,000 - $1,500 range so I went with this one. I guess it will wait for the next bike.

As for the shifters, that is one thing that the last tech to work on my bike brought up. He thought it was a bad shifter and not the derailleur. I'm going to try and bring a different bike up the hill this week to try and figure this one out. If I'm lucky I'll get one with Chorus or Centaur

 

[alfeng]

The Jumpstop seems like a no-brainer. For $10 it's worth trying for sure.

The very last bike I test rode in the 90's was a Bianchi equipped with mid-grade Campagnolo and I was in heaven with how smooth it shifted relative to my 105. I just couldn't find a bike locally with Campy on it in the $1,000 - $1,500 range so I went with this one. I guess it will wait for the next bike.

As for the shifters, that is one thing that the last tech to work on my bike brought up. He thought it was a bad shifter and not the derailleur. I'm going to try and bring a different bike up the hill this week to try and figure this one out. If I'm lucky I'll get one with Chorus or Centaur

My (direct vs. through any LBS) experience with Shimano (Irvine, CA) is that they are VERY GOOD at honoring their warranties ... which you should probably invoke, at this point in time.

I presume you are dealing with the shop from which you bought the bike ... so, have them replace the shifter under warranty.

 

[ghunter]

I presume you are dealing with the shop from which you bought the bike ... so, have them replace the shifter under warranty.

Yes, I am dealing with them. This week is when I ask for warranty replacement, perhaps of the whole front system.

 

[kdelong]

Personally, I prefer the non-indexed shifters on the down tube - simpler really was better.

I have to agree with you there. My indexed shifter bikes have been on the stand more for adjustments than my friction shifter bikes for any cause. I have several bikes with down tube shifters where you can select friction or indexed by quarter turning a ring on the shifter hub. I have not yet seen any friction shifting STI shifters.

 

[ghunter]

I took the bike in today and they let me exchange it for a Lemond Zurich with a double (some extra bucks out of pocket, of course). It's a little tougher to ride in the hilly parts, but I think that the extra work will do me good. It's all Ultegra and it shifts incredbily well. It's not silky smooth like the Campy I remember, but man is it ever precise. It's like it just snaps between the chainrings without hesitation. Very nice.

Now, to shut the hell up and get riding! Thanks everyone for your tips. I hope that someone else might read this and know that there are some faults with 105/Ultegra triple drive systems out there.

 

[alfeng]

I took the bike in today and they let me exchange it for a Lemond Zurich with a double (some extra bucks out of pocket, of course). It's a little tougher to ride in the hilly parts, but I think that the extra work will do me good. It's all Ultegra and it shifts incredbily well. It's not silky smooth like the Campy I remember, but man is it ever precise. It's like it just snaps between the chainrings without hesitation. Very nice.

Now, to shut the hell up and get riding! Thanks everyone for your tips. I hope that someone else might read this and know that there are some faults with 105/Ultegra triple drive systems out there.

If you end up needing lower gearing, SRAM now makes 10-speed Shimano compatible cassettes whose largest cogs are greater than 27t ... OR, you can cannibalize a larger, single cog from a MTB cassette (e.g. LX) & re-stack your cassette. The rear derailleur can handle an 8t jump between cogs in most cases.

BTW/FYI. If your upper pulley interferes with the largest cog, or vice-versa, I deduced that you can install a 10t pulley wheel to get the necessary clearance for up to a 32t cog on most frames when using a Shimano ROAD rear derailleur (e.g., 6503).

 

[ghunter]

That's good to know. I am having the dealer replace the 12/25 cassette with a 12/27 this weekend to make it a little easier on the steep stuff around here. I can't imagine that with a little more conditioning I'll need more than that, but at least I now know of the option.

I guess there's also a compact chainring option, too. The techs at the shop were divided as to whether or not the Ultegra derailleur would accept it.

 

[biker jk]

I took the bike in today and they let me exchange it for a Lemond Zurich with a double (some extra bucks out of pocket, of course). It's a little tougher to ride in the hilly parts, but I think that the extra work will do me good. It's all Ultegra and it shifts incredbily well. It's not silky smooth like the Campy I remember, but man is it ever precise. It's like it just snaps between the chainrings without hesitation. Very nice.

Now, to shut the hell up and get riding! Thanks everyone for your tips. I hope that someone else might read this and know that there are some faults with 105/Ultegra triple drive systems out there.

Hi. I have no problems in shifting to the small chainring with my Shimano 105 triple groupset. Indeed, with the flat bar shifters, the problems arise if you run a double rather than a triple.

 

[alfeng]

That's good to know. I am having the dealer replace the 12/25 cassette with a 12/27 this weekend to make it a little easier on the steep stuff around here. I can't imagine that with a little more conditioning I'll need more than that, but at least I now know of the option.

I guess there's also a compact chainring option, too. The techs at the shop were divided as to whether or not the Ultegra derailleur would accept it.

If you can get by with a 12/27 & a "regular" road crankset, then you didn't need a triple.

If you subsequently feel you need a gear ratio only slightly lower, 38t 130BCD chainrings are commonly available.

Shimano says that their "regular" road front derailleurs can handle THEIR compact cranks -- Shimano's pins & ramps are probably the best engineered -- so if you get a compact crank made by someone else (OR, use non-Shimano chainrings) you may decide a front derailleur designed for a triple will be better (the INNER plate is larger on a "triple" front , and will facilitate moving the chain onto the outer ring).

 

[bikemistress]

That is interesting info Alfeng. Too bad I am ole fashioned and still have 9 speed, but I will tell my husband, as he rides 10 speed Dura Ace. Thanks!

 

[ghunter]

If you can get by with a 12/27 & a "regular" road crankset, then you didn't need a triple.

I did an 8 mile ride today with 800 vertical feet top to bottom (I live at the top) and so far the 12/25 is a little harder work, but doable. I'm going to swap the cassette to a 12/27 just to have that little bit more cadence going up the hills.

I'm sooo much happier with the double.