Progressive Overload and CTL

[gudujarlson]

I should note that I have a history of over-use injuries. In the previous 2 years, I have had a case of posterior tibial tendonitis in one ankle, anterior tibial tendonitis in the other ankle, and a strained abductor hallucis muscle. One of my goals this year was to avoid such injuries. None the less I developed something in my right calf in in June that I could not self diagnose nor did I seek medical advice. I took some extra time off to help it heal and I am pain free currently. So yes, I think I have been approaching my limits.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

FWIW, that is what I'd consider very good PMC dynamics especially if those rest periods where CTL drooped coincide with either race and recover periods or some easier work and perhaps an FTP adjustment followed by rebuilding. That's not the kind of stagnant CTL plateau that I was talking about above.

Nice work and if this is indeed your first season of training as implied by the starting point of your PMC then it's VERY unlikely that you're anywhere near your genetic potential. IOW, follow a similar pattern this coming year picking up from where you left off and even if your CTL high points don't get any higher you'll almost certainly continue to see progress. You don't need or necessarily even want to be on one steady CTL ramp all season, just trending up during harder build periods, drooping down to either spend some of that accumulated training base or while taking a breather before getting back to work.

By the way, thank you for the praise, encouragement and advice.

One clarification... This year wasn't really my first year training, however it was my first year of following a plan. I've been riding 5-20 hrs/week (excluding winters) for about 3 years now and 1.5 years with a power meter. The image I uploaded shows only this past season's PMC. Although I can't know for sure because I have only been collecting power data for 1.5 seasons, I feel that my progress has decreased substantially this year compared to last. So it does "feel" like I reaching some sort of ceiling.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .
... So it does "feel" like I reaching some sort of ceiling.

No doubt progress slows with time as the marginal gains become smaller. But I'd encourage you to stay objective in terms of the progress you're actually making and the kind of training you're doing.

It seems every athlete I've coached hits a point after a year or two of relatively fast progress where they're convinced they're approaching a genetic limit and either won't see more gains or need to shift to a diet of short hard intervals to continue to see progress. It is highly unlikely you've topped out or hit any sort of genetic limits unless you've been training on a good and consistent program for four to six years or more. Invariably additional gains come if they don't get frustrated or try to speed things up too much with a big switch to a pull up based approach.

This stuff takes time, a lot of time so don't jump ship on what's brought you this far. Yes, back out and review what has worked, what hasn't worked and where they may be room to improve but don't start looking for quick fixes or try to speed things up. Your body can only adapt so quickly, it takes time to generate new cells and progress does slow after some faster initial gains.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[gudujarlson]

I'm a bit torn on the subject of rest. From reading Joe Friel's training bible, Joe Friel's blog, and Training and Racing with a Power Meter and have gotten a good dose of "you need to rest". Joe Friel even suggests that, as a masters age athlete, I should get a lot more rest than I am getting (2 weeks on / 1 week off). But on this forum and the wattage form no one seems to take rest seriously and consider it to be some sort of weakness. The physiology textbook I am reading provides very little information. It has a big section on overtraining, but it avoids the subject of rest needed for optimal adaptation.

It also seems like people on these forums don't take periodization at the mesocycle scale seriously. I don't hear anyone suggesting a change in volume or intensity over the course of a 3-4 weeks period. All weeks seem to be the same with the exception of the 8-12 weeks before an event. Joe Friel is big proponent of a gradual increase in volume during each mesocycle with a reset at the beginning of the next. Hunter and Coggan don't talk about it in Training and Racing with a Power Meter, but the case study training plans have a mesocycle structure to them; albeit its unclear if CTL is supposed to increase every week during the mesocycle. The only thing that is obvious is that that 1 week out of every 4 is very light.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

It seems every athlete I've coached hits a point after a year or two of relatively fast progress where they're convinced they're approaching a genetic limit and either won't see more gains or need to shift to a diet of short hard intervals to continue to see progress. It is highly unlikely you've topped out or hit any sort of genetic limits unless you've been training on a good and consistent program for four to six years or more. Invariably additional gains come if they don't get frustrated or try to speed things up too much with a big switch to a pull up based approach.

Joe Friel mentioned somewhere it can take up to 7 years of consistent progressive overload to hit the genetic ceiling. Although the gains made in later years may be incremental, they are probably the gains that separate winners from losers in many of the upper categories.

 

[tomw1974]

I think the more modern power-based methodologies approach rest and recovery more scientifically than the older heart rate and "by feel" methodologies..

I always thought that Friel liked to recommend a lot of guidelines (3 on 1 off, 2 on 1 off, etc) that are a little old-fashioned. Not everyone needs a recovery week every 4th week. Some people need one every 3rd or every 7th. Some people train continuously without recovery weeks by taking solid rest days every week or just paying more attention to their diet and recovery.

The younger coaches seem to prefer a more individualized approach, which says to do intervals until you cannot hit the target power anymore and rest is determined more by visible signs of fatigue (usually accompanying a steep CTL ramp rate).

It's not that rest isn't important. It just isn't structured evenly on the calendar.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by tomw1974 .

I think the more modern power-based methodologies approach rest and recovery more scientifically than the older heart rate and "by feel" methodologies..

I consider Training and Racing with a Power Meter to be modern and the case study training plans have 1 week of almost complete rest in every 4.

The younger coaches seem to prefer a more individualized approach, which says to do intervals until you cannot hit the target power anymore and rest is determined more by visible signs of fatigue (usually accompanying a steep CTL ramp rate).

That sounds like what Joe Friel calls "recovery on demand". I don't think it is a new idea.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2012/06/more-on-recovery-on-demand.html

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by tomw1974 .
Some people train continuously without recovery weeks by taking solid rest days every week or just paying more attention to their diet and recovery.

It's not that rest isn't important. It just isn't structured evenly on the calendar.

That's me to a degree.

I do go on a week vacation with my wife once a year and minor weekend trips a couple more times that are typically some scheduled time off. This past May my wife and I trained at the condo fitness center 60 minutes each day on the stationary bike and running twice a day on the beach so I guess I skipped my scheduled break this year. However, life throws in its interruptions for the unscheduled day off here and there. Friday is usually my one day off from the bike. Monday, I do an active recovery so that one is sort of rest, but then again I train legs Monday morning so I guess not.

I love training. So far no mental or physical breakdowns.

 

[bgoetz]

I am one of those who follow more of a periodization type plan. I go hard when I need to, dial in my performance when needed (or at least try), and rest hard when needed. This season put me at 10k miles and lots of racing and I need rest to have the mental drive to do it again. I just started a long rest period this week and won't do any type of structured training till December 1st. One crazy thing I noticed was that in a period of 4 days I have lost 8 lbs and weigh less than I ever have. The strange thing is that right around July I was riding a ton, but noticed an unexplained spike in weight and really had trouble bringing down my weight since then. Now I take a few days off, and like that the weight is gone. I really think that my body just began retaining fluids from all of the inflammation and reached a point in July where it could not process toxins as effectively. A few days off and my body has had a chance to catch up.

 

[tomw1974]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .

I consider Training and Racing with a Power Meter to be modern and the case study training plans have 1 week of almost complete rest in every 4.

So do I. I also don't consider the two (or three?) case studies to be all inclusive of every concept in the book. If you read the other articles Allen has written or look at the training programs he sells, they don't all have a forced rest week.

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .

That sounds like what Joe Friel calls "recovery on demand". I don't think it is a new idea.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2012/06/more-on-recovery-on-demand.html

I don't think the idea is new. I think its acceptance is relatively new.

 

[Felt_Rider]

To add what Tom stated and hopefully I am going in the right direction with this statement is that lab studies often have a very controlled environment, but each of us live in varying conditions. Because of this a lot more variables come into play. While we hope to strive to get to that science based training it is the variables that begin to shape a different path for each of us. Kind of like a programmer having to add in a lot of IF/ELSE statements into the program so that some sort of program will work for us. Some will get a little closer to the perfect lab setting, but many of us will not because of the variables. It comes down to "do the best with what you got."

Each of us has to look at the many variables in our lives and adjust training accordingly as best possible with science based training as a guide, but with the fact that many of us cannot get our setting to look like the lab setting. I learned long ago by observation of world class lifters that even amongst themselves they had similarities in training, but not all aspects were identical because of their individual nature, careers, genetics, stresses and life. However, each of them were qualified to compete at the world level and they got there with less than perfect training conditions if you compare it against books and lab studies.

What is cool about Strava is picking out a few pros and upper Cat level cyclists and see that they too do not always have the perfect lab conditions. Much of their training doesn't look too far off from what I see many of us doing. Most of what I observe is consistency above all else.