Proof that lowracers are real fast

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ckaudio1, Apr 25, 2003.

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  1. Ckaudio1

    Ckaudio1 Guest

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  2. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

  3. Archer

    Archer Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
    > and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of riders.
    > Pretty good showing I would say.
    >
    > http://www.ambikerace.com/2003/results/matts_single_bong_20k.htm

    How hilly is this course?

    --
    David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
    it's morning".

    Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
     
  4. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"ckaudio1" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
    >> and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
    >> riders. Pretty good showing I would say.
    >>
    >> http://www.ambikerace.com/2003/results/matts_single_bong_20k.htm
    >
    >26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.

    And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  5. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email protected] (ckaudio1) wrote:

    Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race between
    UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give them a
    chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

    4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):

    VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

    Bwuahahahahaha! [I ride recumbent]

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  6. Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
    > between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
    > them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.

    > 4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace): VC
    > St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs Bwuahahahahaha! [I ride recumbent]

    IIRC, the time in a 4-rider team pursuit is taken on the 3rd rider, thus it is fairly standard
    practice for one rider to burn all his candles pulling and drop off on the last lap or so.

    It is impressive for one guy to beat four guys. On the other hand, I don't know that it is seriously
    disputed that a lowracer could in principle be more aero than an upright. (AFAIK no one has
    presented evidence that non-lowracer unfaired recumbents are more aero than diamond frame bicycles.)

    The real question is whether anyone should care. Not all riding is racing. And then, if you look at
    rec.bicycles.racing, even though it is a den of iniquity and flamage, the denizens are not
    interested in equipment questions and Campy/Shimano flamewars. They want to know _who_ rides faster,
    not _what_.
     
  7. "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message >

    > And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider".

    Mark, these guys have never riden with a good road rider. They think they are fast because the only
    gauge they have are other unfit recreational types.
     
  8. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email protected] (ckaudio1) wrote:
    >
    > Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
    > between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
    > them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.
    >
    > 4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):
    >
    > VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

    Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
    course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

    ...

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  9. In article <[email protected]>, Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
    > > between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
    > > them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.
    >
    > > 4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):
    > > VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

    > The real question is whether anyone should care. Not all riding is racing. And then, if you look
    > at rec.bicycles.racing, even though it is a den of iniquity and flamage, the denizens are not
    > interested in equipment questions and Campy/Shimano flamewars. They want to know _who_ rides
    > faster, not _what_.

    That's true. they're far too busy offering gratuitously homoerotic insults to each other over the
    random doping accusation of the week to bother with bike tech.

    That's why the gratuitously homoerotic insults regarding equipment are focussed on
    rec.bicycles.tech, which is the proper group for them, though rbm is also an acceptable venue.

    Share & Enjoy,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  10. David Kerber wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > On 25 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0700, [email protected] (ckaudio1) wrote:
    > >
    > > Posted elsewhere recently, to celebrate the reopening of Reading velodrome there was a race
    > > between UK champion team pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael, and Rob English, riding unfaired to give
    > > them a chance. On a 20lb home-built bike.
    > >
    > > 4000m, and one of the pursuit squad dropped out (allegedly because he couldn't hack the pace):
    > >
    > > VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs
    >
    > Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
    > course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.
    >

    I agree. I asked for that a _long_ time ago. Never got a reply!

    --
    Frank Krygowski [email protected]
     
  11. Mark,

    The course had a few hills and the winds were prevalent for half the circuit. And the best cat1
    racer completed the course in 27.22.03 vs. AA's
    26.43.44. Road surface conditions were atrocious for several miles with very rough pavement similar
    to "chip seal surfaces."

    There was a 3 cat 1/2, 5 cat 5, and 18 cat 4 "racerrs" and over 100 competitors whom AA bettered.
    Warren on the other "race specific recumbent" was 5th place overall, not a bad showing for a mid
    40's year old once a week rider.

    Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap race
    taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire event. He
    broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired "race
    specific bent."

    And elsewhere in this forum there has been several well documented "circuit 1 hour TT's or races
    where the winning and lead recumbents "averaged" in the 33 mph range for that duration.

    Can you cite specific examples from the DF realm bettering these numbers? And remember, these
    figures are for "stock race specific recumbents."

    Ed -

    Mark Hickey wrote:

    > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >"ckaudio1" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
    > >> and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
    > >> riders. Pretty good showing I would say.
    > >>
    > >> http://www.ambikerace.com/2003/results/matts_single_bong_20k.htm
    > >
    > >26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.
    >
    > And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?
    >
    > Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  12. David,

    Though the course may not be as hilly as many, the fact that these two recumbents placed so well in
    a very competitive TT series, speaks for itself. For many years, it has been rumored that cat racers
    are tough to beat.

    What other venue would be a better test than a TT since it is a gauging of personal athleticism
    without the tactics of pack riding and drafting? Just recently the Matts Series opened up the event
    to our "race specific recumbents" and since then, each one had our riders in the upper finishers.
    Note these bikes are all classified as "stock."

    The conditions have varied from sub freezing, to warm but far from ideal at these events. We'll be
    at the upcoming 30K and 40K TT's to run again.

    Ed

    archer wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT 1
    > > and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
    > > riders. Pretty good showing I would say.
    > >
    > > http://www.ambikerace.com/2003/results/matts_single_bong_20k.htm
    >
    > How hilly is this course?
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord, it's
    > morning".
    >
    > Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
     
  13. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote
    > Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
    > course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.

    Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
    bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer under
    which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.
     
  14. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Ed Gin & Shirleen Kajiwara <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The course had a few hills and the winds were prevalent for half the circuit. And the best cat1
    >racer completed the course in 27.22.03 vs. AA's
    >26.43.44. Road surface conditions were atrocious for several miles with very rough pavement
    > similar to "chip seal surfaces."

    Those are pretty much different numbers than reported below (by almost a minute!).

    >There was a 3 cat 1/2, 5 cat 5, and 18 cat 4 "racerrs" and over 100 competitors whom AA bettered.
    >Warren on the other "race specific recumbent" was 5th place overall, not a bad showing for a mid
    >40's year old once a week rider.

    Pretty small turnout - do any of the state championship TTs allow 'bents? It would be interesting to
    see how he stacks up against a larger field "when it matters" (smaller TTs are often nothing more
    than an fitness test for racers trying to peak later).

    >Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap race
    >taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire event. He
    >broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired "race
    >specific bent."

    Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)

    >And elsewhere in this forum there has been several well documented "circuit 1 hour TT's or races
    >where the winning and lead recumbents "averaged" in the 33 mph range for that duration.
    >
    >Can you cite specific examples from the DF realm bettering these numbers? And remember, these
    >figures are for "stock race specific recumbents."

    Since I don't know the circumstances, it would be difficult to compare apples and oranges. If you're
    talking about riding in a velodrome, the fastest DFs are well above 34mph (that's solo - I'm not
    sure how fast other multiple rider events are).

    Probably a more realistic comparison (though one that would be tough to come up with 'bent numbers
    for) would be the average speed of a major race like the Tour de France. In 2002, the overall
    average was almost 26mph (and that includes a fair amount of "parade mode" when they decided to cool
    their jets for a while). Considering the amount of climbing involved, it's hard to imagine a pack of
    'bents being able to make up the difference with a mph or two advantage on the flat.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

    >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >
    >> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >"ckaudio1" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >news:[email protected]...
    >> >> Take a look at the recumbent category post for time. Yes AA took the best time, even over CAT
    >> >> 1 and 2 riders. Looked like a smokefest to me. The second place recumbent also beat a lot of
    >> >> riders. Pretty good showing I would say.
    >> >>
    >> >> http://www.ambikerace.com/2003/results/matts_single_bong_20k.htm
    >> >
    >> >26:45 vs 28.14 is a huge lead on a 20k TT.
    >>
    >> And 28:14 is a pretty awful time for a "Cat 1/2 rider". Was the issue hills or wind?
    >>
    >> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  15. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > ...
    > >Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap
    > >race taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire
    > >event. He broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear tired
    > >"race specific bent."
    >
    > Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)....

    And remember we a comparing an amateur in his late 40's who works full time to two professional
    cyclists in the prime of their careers.

    It would be interesting to put a power measuring crank on all three bikes and then run them at the
    same input under identical conditions.

    AA also rides the same bike he races thousands of miles per year on public roads. Would anyone be
    willing to do the same on a "Obree/Superman" position upright?

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  16. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote
    > > Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
    > > course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.
    >
    > Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
    > bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer
    > under which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

    I'm trying to end the argument by seeing some real world results, because I want to see real life
    results, not "should be" results from laboratory calculations. I'm an engineer, and have some feel
    for how well laboratory results and theoretical calculations transfer to the real world. I.E. often
    not very well. The power equation doesn't take into account any effect that the different riding
    position might have on the overall mechanical efficiency of the bike/rider system.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  17. Well put Tom,

    The top finishers in the 1 hour TT averaged the spectacular 33 plus mph speeds on a road course and
    not a single one of them were pros or amateur (cat) racers. He apparantly doesn't get it.

    Ed Gin

    Tom Sherman wrote:

    > Mark Hickey wrote:
    > > ...
    > > >Just yesterday at the Major Taylor Velodrome in Indianapolis, AA took first place in a 50 lap
    > > >race taking the lead from the git go and with "no drafting" averaged 29-30 mph for the entire
    > > >event. He broke sweat but amazingly rode it in his middle 45 tooth chainring with 650C rear
    > > >tired "race specific bent."
    > >
    > > Then he would have only been 4-5mph slower than Rominger or Boardman. ;-)....
    >
    > And remember we a comparing an amateur in his late 40's who works full time to two professional
    > cyclists in the prime of their careers.
    >
    > It would be interesting to put a power measuring crank on all three bikes and then run them at the
    > same input under identical conditions.
    >
    > AA also rides the same bike he races thousands of miles per year on public roads. Would anyone be
    > willing to do the same on a "Obree/Superman" position upright?
    >
    > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  18. Derek

    Derek Guest

    David,

    You will not end the argument any time soon. It will rage on and continue to bore folks who could
    care less for some time to come. Someone should write the book "It's not about the position" or
    something. I have been beaten up hills on both a recumbent and an upright by a guy on a kick
    scooter. I was out of shape at the time and he was in very good shape, so what? It does not prove
    that kick scooters are faster up hills than any other type of ride.

    The general public will vote with thier checkbooks about the merits of one bike over another.
    eventually, we will only be able to buy 40 lb asian made hybrids from Costco, and the argument will
    be put to rest.

    Cheers, Derek

    "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message > > "David Kerber"

    > I'm trying to end the argument by seeing some real world results, because I want to see real life
    > results, not "should be" results from laboratory calculations. I'm an engineer, and have some feel
    > for how well laboratory results and theoretical calculations transfer to the real world. I.E.
    > often not very well. The power equation doesn't take into account any effect that the different
    > riding position might have on the overall mechanical efficiency of the bike/rider system.
     
  19. Robert Chung wrote:
    >
    > "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote
    > > Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see a similar race on a hilly
    > > course or a tough climb like the Mt. Washington hill climb.
    >
    > Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
    > bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know enough about the power equation to exactly answer
    > under which conditions one type of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.

    As David said in response, your proposal leaves much to be desired. It's _not_ real world.

    Here's a real-world report from todays invitational ride that we did. It was a 30 mile flat ride,
    with an optional 24 mile hilly loop after lunch. And some of the hills were brutal indeed. (The guy
    who laid out the route said his car had trouble climbing some of them.)

    On the flat route, there were many recumbents. Out of about 200 riders, I'd say I saw about 15 to 20
    recumbents. For around here, that's a _lot_.

    On the optional hilly route? Zero. Zip. None. AFAIK, not one recumbent rider tried to take on
    the hills.

    Incidentally, there was one handicapped guy, with only one useable arm, who did do the hilly route,
    on an upright, of course. And at least one tandem couple. But no recumbents.

    --
    Frank Krygowski [email protected]
     
  20. Derek

    Derek Guest

    Frank,

    Bent riders don't avoid hills as a rule but they do avoid loops. Since the optional route was a
    loop, it stands to reason that the bent riders avoided
    it. . . .Bent riders also usually avoid out and back routes.

    Cheers, Derek

    "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Robert Chung wrote:
    > >
    > > "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote
    > > > Not extremely surprising given the conditions. I'd still like to see
    a
    > > > similar race on a hilly course or a tough climb like the Mt.
    Washington
    > > > hill climb.
    > >
    > > Why? Rather than these interminable arguments, just ask for the CdA and weight of each type of
    > > bicycle for a standard-sized rider. We know
    enough
    > > about the power equation to exactly answer under which conditions one
    type
    > > of bike will be faster than another for the same power input.
    >
    > As David said in response, your proposal leaves much to be desired. It's _not_ real world.
    >
    >
    > Here's a real-world report from todays invitational ride that we did. It was a 30 mile flat ride,
    > with an optional 24 mile hilly loop after lunch. And some of the hills were brutal indeed. (The
    > guy who laid out the route said his car had trouble climbing some of them.)
    >
    > On the flat route, there were many recumbents. Out of about 200 riders, I'd say I saw about 15 to
    > 20 recumbents. For around here, that's a _lot_.
    >
    > On the optional hilly route? Zero. Zip. None. AFAIK, not one recumbent rider tried to take on
    > the hills.
    >
    > Incidentally, there was one handicapped guy, with only one useable arm, who did do the hilly
    > route, on an upright, of course. And at least one tandem couple. But no recumbents.
    >
    > --
    > Frank Krygowski [email protected]
     
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