Prospective Engineer

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by The Reeper, Jan 22, 2003.

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  1. The Reeper

    The Reeper Guest

    Hello,

    Just joined this ng, and liking it.

    I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

    Thank you very much,

    Peter

    --
    "We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

    "Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle
     
    Tags:


  2. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
    un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you graduate!
    Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can be a tough
    life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions such as
    dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering future in North
    America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign countries I suspect. That's
    not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if you could say it's a great
    market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what pays the bills, but don't ever
    give up on a dream.

    Cheers,

    Scott..
    --
    Scott Anderson

    "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hello,
    >
    > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    >
    > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    > bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?
    >
    > Thank you very much,
    >
    > Peter
    >
    >
    > --
    > "We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela
    >
    > "Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle
    >
     
  3. Ian S

    Ian S Guest

    "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]usplanet.net...
    > Hello,
    >
    > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    >
    > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    > bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?
    >
    > Thank you very much,
    >
    > Peter

    I am an engineer and although I am still in the field, I've strayed far from where I started. I have
    my own company now and am in the process of commercializing some patented technology that I along
    with a business partner invented. I have heard bad things about today's job market for engineers -
    certainly when compared with the early to mid 90's. Large employers are slashing even their
    technical workforces. That seems to be driving students into other disciplines which means there
    will probably be a shortage of engineers in another five to ten years. One caveat is what is
    currently is happening with programmers - and may be in the cards for engineers too to some extent -
    and that's farming out to low wage countries like India which have an abundance of well-trained
    technical people. As far as getting a job designing bicycles in this country, I think the odds are
    very long. You might be able to go that route via the aerospace/defense industry with an M.E.
    background. That industry employs many engineers, is likely to grow since we're apparently becoming
    the world's policeman and is unlikely to see engineering jobs exported to other countries. After
    getting some experience, you might be able to snag a bicycle related position. Or more likely, start
    your own firm. Just be sure either you or someone close to you has deep pockets!
     
  4. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    >bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

    Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....

    Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

    Learn to love mass transit or better yet, riding your bike everyone.

    Have yourself sterilized ASAP. Kids are very expensive. Neutering would be better, since it will
    avoid the considerable expense of dating.

    Hang out with other people who can spend an hour in a bike shop touching, lifting and smelling
    without actually buying anything - and consider the time well-spent.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  5. "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hello,
    >
    > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    >
    > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    > bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?
    >
    > Thank you very much,
    >
    > Peter

    Peter, You're really gonna have to looove bikes to want an engineering job in the bike biz. I've
    worked with many, and saw quite a few burt out by
    it. Long hours, comparitively low pay, travel to armpits like Tai Chung, sales managers always
    wanting stuff done cheaply, product managers always wanting the impossible to work, marketing
    managers making claims you can't support, and an industry full to the brim with huge egos. It's
    truley a labor of love, and the guys who do it well will tell you so! Good luck. --JIm --Jim
     
  6. The Reeper

    The Reeper Guest

    Gee, pretty grim message your sending me. I appreciate all of the advice given to me.

    I now might consider my Plan B for careers, seeing as how it's a fairly poor industry to get into.

    Thanks,

    Peter

    --
    "We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

    "Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle
     
  7. I was watching this thread and remembering my own experience with this group 10 years ago.

    check out the thread that even solicited a response from Jobst!

    http://tinyurl.com/4s08

    I eventually did wind up in the industry for a little over two years. It all depends on the person
    and the situation, but for me, it was too much "bikes" at that point in my life. I will say that the
    experience opened doors and gave me a great deal of exposure to many facets of product development -
    this was key in my professional development. I wouldn't trade have traded the experience for
    anything - and the trips to foreign countries can be rewarding - that's how I met my wife.

    I like bikes and riding them a whole lot more now than I did a few years ago - that is for sure.

    My advice is simple, and best expressed through the words of Heny David Thoreau:

    "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined."

    Best of luck,
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
  8. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    > >bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?
    >
    > Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....
    >
    > Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

    Cooking is like, a pain, dude. Besides, Powerbars have all your carbs and stuff already measured
    out. Plus, if you work in the industry, you could probably get 'em for free...

    > Learn to love mass transit or better yet, riding your bike everyone.

    Well, it is the most efficient means of transportation (snort)

    > Have yourself sterilized ASAP. Kids are very expensive. Neutering would be better, since it will
    > avoid the considerable expense of dating.

    Who needs kids when your friends are still "young" enough to be calling each other "dude" at 45?
    Besides, kids ride too slow, and complain too much... And dude, everyone knows engineers don't date!

    > Hang out with other people who can spend an hour in a bike shop touching, lifting and smelling
    > without actually buying anything - and consider the time well-spent.

    Dude!

    Matt O.
     
  9. Hanker

    Hanker Guest

    > "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    > >
    > > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    > > bicycles> > Thank you very much,
    > >
    > > Peter

    Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
    especially, btw)
     
  10. Spam Hater

    Spam Hater Guest

    S. Anderson wrote:

    > Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
    > un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you graduate!
    > Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can be a tough
    > life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions such as
    > dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering future in
    > North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign countries I
    > suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if you could say
    > it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what pays the bills, but
    > don't ever give up on a dream.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Scott..
    > --
    > Scott Anderson
    >

    Scott,

    Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
    * Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
    * Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things like
    that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
    * Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

    Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor (have
    YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept of
    'medicine'), nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

    Joe
    --

    Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
    State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
    fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
    <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.
     
  11. Ajames54

    Ajames54 Guest

    On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:48:43 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....
    >>
    >> Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.
    >
    >Cooking is like, a pain, dude. Besides, Powerbars have all your carbs and stuff already measured
    >out. Plus, if you work in the industry, you could probably get 'em for free...

    Free? I wish! Those things are like Dope! you only ever get enough free to get you hooked! ... ya
    gotta learn to cook dude making your own is the only way ya can afford to eat them all the time...

    besides someone you ride with probably paid their electric bill and wont mind you using
    their stove...
     
  12. Spam Hater

    Spam Hater Guest

    Hanker wrote:

    >> "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:<[email protected]>...
    >> > Hello,
    >> >
    >> > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    >> >
    >> > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
    >> > bicycles> > Thank you very much,
    >> >
    >> > Peter
    >
    > Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
    > especially, btw)

    Tell that to all of us (like myself, who ARE SW engineers) currently out of work...

    Joe
    --

    Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
    State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
    fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
    <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.
     
  13. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Hanker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > "The Reeper" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Hello,
    > > >
    > > > Just joined this ng, and liking it.
    > > >
    > > > I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering,
    and
    > > > then I hope to design bicycles> > Thank you very much,
    > > >
    > > > Peter
    >
    > Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
    > especially, btw)

    All kidding aside, I agree. Actually, mechanical engineering grads still get the highest pay right
    out of college, according to some statistics I read recently.

    However, what really matters is that you'll be happy in an engineering job. Do you think you'd be
    happier working for a huge company, or a small one? Or, do you have a burning desire to be
    self-employed? Do you like being left alone to do your thing, or be out in the world dealing with
    people? Do you like to focus completely on one thing, or do you enjoy the variety of juggling many
    tasks? Try to meet some engineers, and see what it's really like out there.

    Matt O.
     
  14. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "spam hater" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > S. Anderson wrote:

    > > Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
    > > un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you
    > > graduate! Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can
    > > be a tough life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions
    > > such as dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering
    > > future in North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign
    > > countries I suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if
    > > you could say it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what
    > > pays the bills, but don't ever give up on a dream.

    > Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
    > * Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
    > * Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
    > like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
    > * Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

    I agree. Furthermore, I'd give my eye teeth for a trip to Taiwan on someone else's nickel -- even
    the crappiest corner of it.

    > Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
    > (have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
    > of 'medicine'), nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

    There are pluses and minuses to any job, but if you're really into your work the minuses don't
    matter. It's really about lifestyle choice -- what do you want to do with yourself when you get
    out of bed every day? What kind of people do you want to be around? What do you want to fill your
    head with?

    If you're already designing and building things for yourself, reading all the technical journals and
    books you can get your hands on, and keeping track of numbers like your car's gas mileage, etc.,
    then you're probably well on your way to being an engineer. But if your eyes glaze over while
    reading Scientific American, if you find things like computers and VCRs frustrating, and if you hate
    math, then you're probably not cut out for it.

    Matt O.
     
  15. Zaf

    Zaf Guest

    [email protected] (Hanker) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
    > especially, btw)

    This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill Gates
    started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and archictecting
    software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be considered
    'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a thread is
    something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take electormagnetic field
    theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.

    Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several years
    ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was the
    lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
    engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.
     
  16. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    Have you priced engineer's liability insurance lately?! :) Although I painted a somewhat grim
    picture, it still really boils down to what you want to do. Some people are born to be engineers.
    Jobst is one of those people. It's just part of their life. But if you don't really love it, it can
    be tough. Matt mentions travelling to Taiwan, but it's not quite like he imagines I suspect. The
    travel is sometimes for extended periods, 8 months in Mexico, 3 months back home, 12 months in South
    Africa. It can be a grind, especially if you have a family. The pay, at least in Canada, is so-so,
    unless you're a partner or owner of a firm, compared to dentists and doctors (although doctors are
    taking a beating these days..). I always figured, if you love what you do, even if you're broke,
    you're still a winner. At least you'll die happy, not just rich.

    Cheers,

    Scott..
    --
    Scott Anderson

    PS you don't hear me arguing about the lawyer crack, do ya?!?! ;-)

    "spam hater" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > S. Anderson wrote:
    >
    >
    > Scott,
    >
    > Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
    > * Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
    > * Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
    > like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
    > * Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.
    >
    > Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
    > (have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
    > of 'medicine'), nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).
    >
    > Joe
    > --
    >
    > Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
    > State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a
    > consulting fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
    > <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.
     
  17. Spam Hater

    Spam Hater Guest

    Matt O'Toole wrote:

    >
    > "spam hater" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >> S. Anderson wrote:
    >
    >> > Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
    >> > un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you
    >> > graduate! Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can
    >> > be a tough life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions
    >> > such as dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering
    >> > future in North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign
    >> > countries I suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if
    >> > you could say it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what
    >> > pays the bills, but don't ever give up on a dream.
    >
    >> Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
    >> * Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
    >> * Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
    >> like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
    >> * Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.
    >
    > I agree. Furthermore, I'd give my eye teeth for a trip to Taiwan on someone else's nickel -- even
    > the crappiest corner of it.
    >
    >> Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
    >> (have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
    >> of 'medicine'), nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).
    >
    > There are pluses and minuses to any job, but if you're really into your work the minuses don't
    > matter. It's really about lifestyle choice -- what do you want to do with yourself when you get
    > out of bed every day? What kind of people do you want to be around? What do you want to fill your
    > head with?
    >
    > If you're already designing and building things for yourself, reading all the technical journals
    > and books you can get your hands on, and keeping track of numbers like your car's gas mileage,
    > etc., then you're probably well on your way to being an engineer. But if your eyes glaze over
    > while reading Scientific American, if you find things like computers and VCRs frustrating, and if
    > you hate math, then you're probably not cut out for
    > it.
    >
    > Matt O.

    Actually,

    My eyes glaze over reading most of the tripe posted on r.b.r. I have no prbolem discussing Keynesian
    Economic or Partial 3rd-Order Differntial Equations (Thank you, Butterworth, for helping to make
    thier use possible! )

    Joe 'Former audio-geek turned software developer' Cipale

    P.S. - To all of you who requested a copy of my linux-based training log, I will be posting a copy
    of it for download in the next few days. I have been making some changes and fixes prior to
    creating the tarball for distro.
    --

    Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
    State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
    fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
    <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.
     
  18. The Reeper

    The Reeper Guest

    Well, I don't exactly read all of the technical journals (though I have read a couple copies of
    American Scientist - deep stuff!). But I enjoy math when I can see its future value. Some of the
    math just doesn't seem to have any logical applications (I'm entering the equivalent of freshman
    university calculus next semester). And no, I don't find computers frustrating (if I did, I don't
    think I'd use this ng). Any technical journals you can recommend?

    Again, thanks for all of the advice,

    Peter

    --
    "We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

    "Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle
     
  19. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    A good point. In my mind, engineering is a profession where you have responsibility and liability.
    Anyone can call themselves a software engineer, but they really have no professional liablility
    associated with their work. Indeed, here in Canada, there is a push to prevent people from using the
    term "engineer" in their title unless they are, in fact, licensed engineers with the Association of
    Professional Engineers. And this isn't just asking nicely, it would be a punishable offence.

    Having said that, I think that as the software industry develops, hopefully, they will eventually
    have some certification process to ensure that you're getting professional programmers. Currently,
    if you use a program to design spans and the program produces incorrect data, you have no recourse
    for obtaining damages from the software producer. The liability burden pertaining to the accuracy of
    the data is still the responsbility of the engineer stamping the drawing.

    Cheers,

    Scott..
    --
    Scott Anderson

    "Zaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Hanker) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
    > Gates started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and
    > archictecting software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be
    > considered 'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a
    > thread is something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take
    > electormagnetic field theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.
    >
    > Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several
    > years ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was
    > the lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
    > engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.
     
  20. Spam Hater

    Spam Hater Guest

    Zaf wrote:

    > [email protected] (Hanker) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >> > "The Reeper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> > news:<[email protected]>...
    >> Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
    >> especially, btw)
    >
    > This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
    > Gates started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and
    > archictecting software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be
    > considered 'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a
    > thread is something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take
    > electormagnetic field theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.
    >
    > Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several
    > years ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was
    > the lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
    > engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.

    Lets see: BS in ELectrical Engineering, Nearly completed MS in Comp Sci/Software Analysis.

    This included: 2 years of Physics 2 years of semi-conductor Physics 2 years of software structure
    and architecture 2 years of Advanced Hardware Design (both Analog and Hardware) Statics, Dynamics,
    Materials Science, Chemistry More fscking math, including partial differential equations, calculus,
    calculus and MORE calculus.

    Oh... and ELECTROMAGNETICS and Laser Theory.

    Not to mention the assorted classes in Philosophy, Engr Economics, Macro/Micro Econ, and
    technical writing.

    So.. before anyone says that Software Engineering is not engineering, then I ask them to step up to
    the plate and show me what they did to accomplish their career.

    Joe 'Yeah! I get touchy when my career is slapped!' Cipale
    --

    Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
    State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
    fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
    <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.
     
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