Public acceptance of cycling US vs. other countries

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Henry, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. Henry

    Henry Guest

    I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...

    Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by motorists like we do here?

    Having grown up in a state in the US that is fairly cycling friendly I know that even that
    designation that is little consolation when you find yourself dodging objects (bottles, cans, cups,
    bowling balls) thrown by motorists, or dodging the vehicles themselves. Now that I live in Lance's
    home state and home town (Austin) I feel even more hated and a target of anxious and selfish
    motorists here. It's not unusual to be harassed and even Lance himself has been assaulted by
    automobile drivers here (after all, this is the land of the "red pick up truck") see
    http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong

    I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such disrespect also or if it is a
    uniquely American problem.

    Thanks in advance for any pertinent comments.
     
    Tags:


  2. henry wrote:
    > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such disrespect also or if it is a
    > uniquely American problem.

    I don't think it's uniquely American but we probably have it worse than most places. I've heard that
    in China (which has more cyclists than any other country) as more people have become able to afford
    cars in recent years, they are starting to have such incidents.

    I live in a fairly bike friendly town (San Diego) but I still get harassed around once a month or
    so. I always get nervous when I go a few months without because it always seems to mean I'm going to
    get 2-3 in a week to make up for it.

    At least the cops here are mostly bike friendly. They even have a bike patrol in the downtown area.

    Most of the people who harass me are men in pickup trucks with the occasional idiot in a sports car.
    Not all of the pickup drivers are white rednecks. Some are the mexican version of redneck; which I'm
    not sure has a name but the attitude is the same. I also seem to get buzzed (but usually not yelled
    at) by middle aged women in SUV's a lot these days. They've gotten very aggressive and seem to have
    no notion of right of way other than might makes right.

    --Bill Davidson
     
  3. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    Generally speaking, no. There is some harassment in the UK, and virtually none on the continent
    (Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Holland and Belgium). For one thing, the
    citizens are a lot more familiar with bikes because cars and fuel are so expensive. It is also
    generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive race bikes with
    matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs and organized events. My understanding
    is that this has changed a bit in the last few decades. Perhaps someone that is living there now can
    comment on that.

    I know that Texas is a lot worse than California, but I have a friend in Austin that tells me that
    is not as bad as other parts of Texas. Some parts of California are not so great.

    That sums up my experience. I know I am spoiled. I get really pissed when the jerks where I have
    lived this year honk and swerve. That is about it. I had almost no trouble at all anywhere within
    100 miles of San Francisco, but I also knew the places to avoid.

    "henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...
    >
    > Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by
    motorists
    > like we do here?
    >
    > Having grown up in a state in the US that is fairly cycling friendly I
    know
    > that even that designation that is little consolation when you find
    yourself
    > dodging objects (bottles, cans, cups, bowling balls) thrown by motorists,
    or
    > dodging the vehicles themselves. Now that I live in Lance's home state
    and
    > home town (Austin) I feel even more hated and a target of anxious and selfish motorists here. It's
    > not unusual to be harassed and even Lance himself has been assaulted by automobile drivers here
    > (after all, this is the land of the "red pick up truck") see
    > http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong
    >
    > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such
    disrespect
    > also or if it is a uniquely American problem.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any pertinent comments.
     
  4. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > henry wrote:
    > > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such
    disrespect
    > > also or if it is a uniquely American problem.
    >
    > I don't think it's uniquely American but we probably have it worse than most places. I've heard
    > that in China (which has more cyclists than any other country) as more people have become able to
    > afford cars in recent years, they are starting to have such incidents.
    >
    > I live in a fairly bike friendly town (San Diego) but I still get harassed around once a month or
    > so. I always get nervous when I go a few months without because it always seems to mean I'm going
    > to get 2-3 in a week to make up for it.
    >
    > At least the cops here are mostly bike friendly. They even have a bike patrol in the
    > downtown area.
    >
    > Most of the people who harass me are men in pickup trucks with the occasional idiot in a sports
    > car. Not all of the pickup drivers are white rednecks. Some are the mexican version of redneck;
    > which I'm not sure has a name but the attitude is the same. I also seem to get buzzed (but usually
    > not yelled at) by middle aged women in SUV's a lot these days. They've gotten very aggressive and
    > seem to have no notion of right of way other than might makes right.
    >
    > --Bill Davidson
    >
    I was out for a four hour "Tour de North County" the other day. (O'side to Escon. to Poway to
    DM and back to O'side for those in SD) NOT ONE TIME did someone harass me on purpose. One girl
    that actually gave me a thumbs up! Amazing! I was wondering if it was 'cause the Toor Day
    Frantz was on...

    Mike
     
  5. Peter Vesel

    Peter Vesel Guest

    It would be a rare day somebody doesn't have a go at me here in Australia. Whether it be honking,
    yelling out something, swerving or deliberately being cut-off, or having things thrown at you. A bad
    day would involve actually being knocked off.

    But having said that there are lots of very courteous drivers as well...just they tend to be
    forgotten about.

    Peter

    "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Generally speaking, no. There is some harassment in the UK, and virtually none on the continent
    > (Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Holland and Belgium). For one thing, the
    > citizens are a lot more familiar with bikes because cars and fuel are so expensive. It is also
    > generally
    true
    > that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive race bikes with matching
    > apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs and organized events. My understanding is that
    > this has changed a bit in the last few decades. Perhaps someone that is living there now can
    > comment on that.
    >
    > I know that Texas is a lot worse than California, but I have a friend in Austin that tells me that
    > is not as bad as other parts of Texas. Some
    parts
    > of California are not so great.
    >
    > That sums up my experience. I know I am spoiled. I get really pissed when the jerks where I have
    > lived this year honk and swerve. That is about it.
    I
    > had almost no trouble at all anywhere within 100 miles of San Francisco,
    but
    > I also knew the places to avoid.
    >
    >
    > "henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...
    > >
    > > Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by
    > motorists
    > > like we do here?
    > >
    > > Having grown up in a state in the US that is fairly cycling friendly I
    > know
    > > that even that designation that is little consolation when you find
    > yourself
    > > dodging objects (bottles, cans, cups, bowling balls) thrown by
    motorists,
    > or
    > > dodging the vehicles themselves. Now that I live in Lance's home state
    > and
    > > home town (Austin) I feel even more hated and a target of anxious and selfish motorists here.
    > > It's not unusual to be harassed and even Lance himself has been assaulted by automobile drivers
    > > here (after all, this
    is
    > > the land of the "red pick up truck") see
    > > http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong
    > >
    > > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such
    > disrespect
    > > also or if it is a uniquely American problem.
    > >
    > > Thanks in advance for any pertinent comments.
    > >
    >
     
  6. "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get
    expensive race
    > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in
    clubs and
    > organized events.

    I don't understand what has this got to do with acceptance of cycling or the way motorists
    treat cyclsts?

    JT

    --
    *******************************************
    NB: reply-to address is munged

    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    *******************************************
     
  7. David Ryan

    David Ryan Guest

    John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    >
    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get
    > expensive race
    > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in
    > clubs and
    > > organized events.
    >
    > I don't understand what has this got to do with acceptance of cycling or the way motorists treat
    > cyclsts?
    >
    > JT

    "Serious" cyclists in team or club kit tend to be regarded as "fags" by certain people.
     
  8. Exelit

    Exelit Guest

    I´ve been riding in Sweden for decades and no serious incident has ever happened to me. Most
    motorist go out of their way to leave a lot of room as they pass me by... no objects have ever been
    hurled at me. Somehow I think behaviour on the roads is a reflection of the society as a whole.
     
  9. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    Because when you are seen as a serious cyclist, you get even better treatment. This is especially
    true in parts of France and Italy. If you are training in the mountains in those countries, you
    will get cars driving on the other side of the road to get out of your way. If they honk, it is to
    cheer you on.

    In the US, just about everyone that even thinks they might ride the bike more than a few times a
    year gets all kitted out. This results in even more teasing. Believe it or not, sometimes the
    non-cycling public can distinguish between a Fred and a serious cyclist and the serious cyclists
    that show competence get treated a lot better. This is what my experience was in Marin County vs.
    training around Nice and the northern lake region of Italy.

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get
    > expensive race
    > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in
    > clubs and
    > > organized events.
    >
    > I don't understand what has this got to do with acceptance of cycling or the way motorists treat
    > cyclsts?
    >
    > JT
    >
    > --
    > *******************************************
    > NB: reply-to address is munged
    >
    > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    > *******************************************
    >
     
  10. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    That too, depending on where you are. It is like that in England (London and Cambridge). In Europe
    (the continent), serious cyclists are admired. Most of my riding was in Northern Italy and Southern
    France. I don't know if that generalization holds true in the rest of Europe.

    "David Ryan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    > >
    > > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get
    > > expensive race
    > > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in
    > > clubs and
    > > > organized events.
    > >
    > > I don't understand what has this got to do with acceptance of cycling or the way motorists treat
    > > cyclsts?
    > >
    > > JT
    >
    > "Serious" cyclists in team or club kit tend to be regarded as "fags" by certain people.
     
  11. Shawn Jelley

    Shawn Jelley Guest

    my fellow americans, don't take this wrong, but if the way cyclists are treated on the road in the
    greater NY/Long Island area is any indication of the society as a whole, society must be in the
    crapper if you ask me. if a day passes here on LI when i don't almost get a 'love-tap' from an SUV i
    feel like the luckiest man alive. yesterday i saw a gentleman in his 60's who received a light tap
    from a Hummer H2 when pulling out onto a main road, fortunately he wasn't really hurt at all.
    according to the laws here, from what i know, autos and cycles are the same despite their distinct
    differences. that said, the rest of NY isn't all that bad, upstate NY is a substantially nicer place
    to be a cyclist. and the #1 difference between upstate NY and 'city' NY/LI, besides the
    surroundings, is the money people have. downstate drivers lack any modesty because they are 'better'
    than everyone else, and their cars are bigger than everyone elses. i've always found that where
    people have less money in the bank, they tend to be more appreciative and respectful of others. i
    could swear it is some crude driving game around long island where drivers amass points for passing
    as close as possible to the 20 cyclists left here. but of course, once they nearly hit you, you tell
    them or flip them off, ohh then the 'you know what' is really going down. in summation, absolute
    lack of respect completely, but at least they don't throw things at me, but the SUV's are more than
    adequate a torture for this cyclist.

    shawn

    "exelit" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I´ve been riding in Sweden for decades and no serious incident has ever happened to me. Most
    > motorist go out of their way to leave a lot of room
    as
    > they pass me by... no objects have ever been hurled at me. Somehow I think behaviour on the roads
    > is a reflection of the society as a whole.
     
  12. henry <[email protected]> wrote:

    : Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by motorists like we do here?

    Not in Finland. The jerks are fairly few, they just don't care about concepts like universal respect
    for right of way or high traffic safety. I don't recall any incident of open hostility, not even
    from hearsay. Once I had a motorist suggest me I take less space on a tight downtown street, but I
    wouldn't count that as harrassing or abuse...

    Finnish drivers seem very courteous, when I compare to stories and complaints I read here. Maybe
    once a week a driver yields when in fact they would have a right of way and not me. It could just be
    that those drivers are extremely careful... it's probable they ride themselves, at least
    occasionally. Yesterday I was riding roads for about 80 km, I was passed by over a hundred cars I
    think, but generally I felt safer than riding the bike tracks in Helsinki cluttered with vegetation
    and other blockers of visibility... It's much better just a dozen kilometers from where I live :p

    I don't know, my impression is that cycling is faring somewhat better these days than 10 years ago.
    Helsinki has become more populated, mountain bikes were interesting, green values have become more
    everyday stuff, traffic planning has had some successes...

    --
    Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi
     
  13. Tim Lambert

    Tim Lambert Guest

    "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    >race bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs and organized events

    I'm trying to figure out which is worse...

    Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists
    that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard time.

    I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just ignorant/stupid - they just don't get it.
    But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the need to degrade other cyclists with terms like
    "pretender" and "fred".

    Do I formally race? No. Do I ride with a club? Not very often. Do I ride 15000 miles a year? No.

    Do I have fun cycling? Yes. Does cycling help me stay fit? Yes. Do I appreciate good equipment? Yes.

    Sure Nick you might be an ok rider as compared to someone new to the sport,

    Nick - you arrogant asshole. Everything is relative, next to a *real* cyclist (i.e. pro), *you* are
    the "fred pretender".

    (Sorry to the rest of RBR that actually helps and encourages people of lessor abilities and/or
    experience. I just couldn't let another post like that one go by.)

    - Tim (rather be a fred than an arrogant dick head) Lambert
     
  14. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    I am sorry to offend you but I could not think of any other language to describe the situation. If
    you have any alternatives to offer please let me know. Simply ignoring something is not an option.
    Not that has any kind of earth shattering importance, but I have given some thought to this over the
    years and that is the best I have come up with.

    Who do think I am giving a hard time to? The fact is, I am not giving anyone a hard time. Almost by
    definition anyone that is reading here is serious enough to not be concerned about it. Americans in
    general have a lot more money to spend before they even know if they will get serious about
    something. The same is true for other sports. This says more about the economic situation in the US
    than anything else.

    You are just being insecure. There is nothing I wrote that should have offended anyone. I set no
    standards, I was describing something from the point of view of the aggressors, not me.

    "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    race
    > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs
    and
    > > organized events
    >
    > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    >
    > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists
    > that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard time.
    >
    > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    ignorant/stupid -
    > they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    need
    > to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".
    >
    > Do I formally race? No. Do I ride with a club? Not very often. Do I
    ride
    > 15000 miles a year? No.
    >
    > Do I have fun cycling? Yes. Does cycling help me stay fit? Yes. Do I appreciate good
    > equipment? Yes.
    >
    > Sure Nick you might be an ok rider as compared to someone new to the
    sport,

    > Nick - you arrogant asshole. Everything is relative, next to a *real* cyclist (i.e. pro), *you*
    > are the "fred pretender".
    >
    > (Sorry to the rest of RBR that actually helps and encourages people of lessor abilities and/or
    > experience. I just couldn't let another post like that one go by.)
    >
    > - Tim (rather be a fred than an arrogant dick head) Lambert
     
  15. "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    race
    > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs
    and
    > > organized events
    >
    > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    >
    > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists
    > that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard time.
    >
    > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    ignorant/stupid -
    > they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    need
    > to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".

    <snip>

    Hey Dumbass, thin-skinned Fred -

    It's part of Road Culture. I attribute it to the nature of the sport.

    Pack handling is the best analogy I can find. If you move up 5 spots, then 5 other people have moved
    back 1 spot, ie. you've improved your position at the expense of others.

    Don't like it? You can

    1) accept it
    2)be a whiny bitch about it, or
    3)find another sport

    Right now you are selecting option #2.

    thank you very much, Fred.

    K. Gringioni Bike Dick
     
  16. Kurt

    Kurt Guest

    "henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...
    >
    > Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by motorists like we do here?
    >
    > Having grown up in a state in the US that is fairly cycling friendly I know that even that
    > designation that is little consolation when you find yourself dodging objects (bottles, cans,
    > cups, bowling balls) thrown by motorists, or dodging the vehicles themselves. Now that I live in
    > Lance's home state and home town (Austin) I feel even more hated and a target of anxious and
    > selfish motorists here. It's not unusual to be harassed and even Lance himself has been assaulted
    > by automobile drivers here (after all, this is the land of the "red pick up truck") see
    > http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong
    >
    > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such disrespect also or if it is a
    > uniquely American problem.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any pertinent comments.

    I live in Eugene, OR and have commuted to work for 9 years without being harrassed (although I have
    incidents with driver who dont know much about right-of-way). I recently got a road bike and no
    problems there. Also, no problems with any rides with my mountain bike on the occasional road.

    Kurt
     
  17. Personally I have only cycled in a few regions in Europe (Basque Country, Provence, Sicilia, Bayern)
    but never had a problem in any of them. And of these, I would only describe the Basque country as
    one with substantial presence of cyclists in full "regalia" (as you will find them in northern
    Italy, (nothern) France, Belgium, Holland).

    Of course you meet some intolerant drivers from time to time (honk/gestures/jokes) and the speed at
    which some cars pass is sometimes excessive (specially in Germany). But normally they tend to mind
    their business and overtake cleanly or wait if you are going up and there is no room for overtaking.
    In fact you will see more episodes of what I call "Radweg" rage in the cycle paths (very popular in
    Germany) than in normal roads. The cyling path net are populated by touring cyclists and other
    specimens that are totally unpredictable...

    That contrasts with Southern Ohio (Cincinnati) where in my very short experience cycling (1 year
    1/2) I got beer and coke cans thrown at me, I got spit at, several cars "simulated" high speed skids
    behind me (those are quite scary)... I even got spanked by some girls coming out a roolled down
    window (O.K. I found that funny)). Not to speak about the insults, pass-by roll-down-window shouts
    and honks (mostly kids)...

    I even tried a few times in a cycle path (Little Miami) and there I had the only significant crash I
    ever had in my cycling experience, when a big mass of MacDonal fed Hulkwoman on her expandex lycra
    panicked when she saw me coming with my TT bike and she decided to put a stop to it. I just
    sommersaulted and landed on a ditch head on.

    Organizing a few Nationals did not seem to help educate the region (in fact only a few hundred
    espectators would show to see the races). The cyclists in OH are real heroes.

    "Kurt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...
    > >
    > > Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by
    motorists
    > > like we do here?
    > >
    > > Having grown up in a state in the US that is fairly cycling friendly I
    know
    > > that even that designation that is little consolation when you find
    yourself
    > > dodging objects (bottles, cans, cups, bowling balls) thrown by
    motorists, or
    > > dodging the vehicles themselves. Now that I live in Lance's home state
    and
    > > home town (Austin) I feel even more hated and a target of anxious and selfish motorists here.
    > > It's not unusual to be harassed and even Lance himself has been assaulted by automobile drivers
    > > here (after all, this
    is
    > > the land of the "red pick up truck") see
    > > http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong
    > >
    > > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such
    disrespect
    > > also or if it is a uniquely American problem.
    > >
    > > Thanks in advance for any pertinent comments.
    >
    > I live in Eugene, OR and have commuted to work for 9 years without being harrassed (although I
    > have incidents with driver who dont know much about right-of-way). I recently got a road bike and
    > no problems there. Also, no problems with any rides with my mountain bike on the occasional road.
    >
    > Kurt
     
  18. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    >From: "henry" [email protected]

    >I was wondering as I watch the tape of today's stage...
    >
    >Do cyclists outside the US find themselves abused and harassed by motorists like we do here?
    >

    Over most of 10 years in Germany I only had one or two incidents that seemed intentional and the
    worst one was by an american. There were also very few accidental type problems either. Living here
    in the Pioneer Valley of western Mass things are pretty good. There have been a few incidents but
    generally the area is very cycling friendly. Bill C
     
  19. Nick Burns wrote:

    Nominated for RBR Quote of the Month.
     
  20. K. J. Papai

    K. J. Papai Guest

    "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    > >race bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs and organized events
    >
    > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    >
    > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists
    > that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard time.

    A "hard time" -- what do you mean by that? By the fact you're passed so easily on the flats or a
    hill climb? Don't equate skills and strength with arrogance. Skills and strength take time and
    dedication. You cannot aquire both on your own without proper coaching from someone hopefully much
    more experienced.

    Is it "arrogant" if a good cyclist doesn't wave to you? Only a Fred would think that.

    > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just ignorant/stupid - they just don't get it.
    > But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the need to degrade other cyclists with terms like
    > "pretender" and "fred".

    Lots of Freds are pretenders and/or ignorant. Someone who is arrogant without style, grace, or
    strength is the King Fred.

    -Ken

    > Do I formally race? No. Do I ride with a club? Not very often. Do I ride 15000 miles a year? No.
    >
    > Do I have fun cycling? Yes. Does cycling help me stay fit? Yes. Do I appreciate good
    > equipment? Yes.
    >
    > Sure Nick you might be an ok rider as compared to someone new to the sport,

    > Nick - you arrogant asshole. Everything is relative, next to a *real* cyclist (i.e. pro), *you*
    > are the "fred pretender".
    >
    > (Sorry to the rest of RBR that actually helps and encourages people of lessor abilities and/or
    > experience. I just couldn't let another post like that one go by.)
    >
    > - Tim (rather be a fred than an arrogant dick head) Lambert
     
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