Public acceptance of cycling US vs. other countries

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Henry, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. Shawn Jelley

    Shawn Jelley Guest

    western mass. isn't exactly long island, i can tell you that. i think its all just overpopulation,
    overindulgence in needless oversized autos, two categories that which my living area is
    exceptionally good at. nothin' like good ole long island, NY.
     


  2. "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    >>I'm trying to figure out which is worse... Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving
    >>cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard
    >>time. I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just ignorant/stupid - they just don't
    >>get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the need to degrade other cyclists with terms
    >>like "pretender" and "fred".

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > Hey Dumbass, thin-skinned Fred -
    >
    > It's part of Road Culture. I attribute it to the nature of the sport.

    So you're saying that unsportsmanlike jackass conduct is the nature of the sport? You don't have a
    high opinion of cyclists do you?

    Denigrating other cyclists should not, and, I hope, is not the nature of the sport. Sports are
    supposed to be fun dammit; not a reason to make

    others who don't perform as well as you, then you're not someone I want to even know.

    >Pack handling is the best analogy I can find. If you move up 5 spots, then 5 other people have
    >moved back 1 spot, ie. you've improved your position at the expense of others.

    And what have you accomplished? You've gone a little bit faster than some other people. How does
    this improve the life of anyone? Maybe if you're a pro it means you get more money. Most of us
    aren't pros here though so it means nothing. It's just a SPORT! It is not that important. It's fun
    to win but so what? Get a sense of perspective.

    >Don't like it? You can
    >1) accept it
    >2)be a whiny bitch about it, or
    >3)find another sport Right now you are selecting option #2.

    Why would he not like going faster than the others? That's supposed to be a good thing. I think you
    have a basic inability to reason and make a point properly and yet you feel comfortable calling
    others dumbass. You are a sad little man.

    --Bill Davidson
     
  3. Tim Lambert

    Tim Lambert Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    >
    > "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]...
    > > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    > race
    > > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs
    > and
    > > > organized events
    > >
    > > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    > >
    > > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard
    time.
    > > -or- Arrogant cyclists that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard
    time.
    > >
    > > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    > ignorant/stupid -
    > > they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    > need
    > > to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > Hey Dumbass, thin-skinned Fred -
    >
    > It's part of Road Culture. I attribute it to the nature of the sport.
    >
    > Pack handling is the best analogy I can find. If you move up 5 spots, then
    5
    > other people have moved back 1 spot, ie. you've improved your position at the expense of others.
    >
    > Don't like it? You can
    >
    > 1) accept it
    > 2)be a whiny bitch about it, or
    > 3)find another sport
    >
    > Right now you are selecting option #2.
    >
    > thank you very much, Fred.
    >
    >
    > K. Gringioni Bike Dick

    What? Based on your analogy - the degrading of novices by the more experienced some how advances
    the latter?

    You are not only a "Bike Dick" but a stupid one at that.
     
  4. "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > >>I'm trying to figure out which is worse... Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving
    > >>cyclists a hard
    time.
    > >>-or- Arrogant cyclists that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard
    time.
    > >>I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    ignorant/stupid -
    > >>they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    need
    > >>to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > Hey Dumbass, thin-skinned Fred -
    > >
    > > It's part of Road Culture. I attribute it to the nature of the sport.
    >
    > So you're saying that unsportsmanlike jackass conduct is the nature of the sport? You don't have a
    > high opinion of cyclists do you?
    >
    > Denigrating other cyclists should not, and, I hope, is not the nature of the sport. Sports are
    > supposed to be fun dammit;

    Damn right. And it's fun to make fun of Freds such as yourself.

    > And what have you accomplished? You've gone a little bit faster than some other people. How does
    > this improve the life of anyone? Maybe if you're a pro it means you get more money. Most of us
    > aren't pros here though so it means nothing. It's just a SPORT! It is not that important. It's fun
    > to win but so what? Get a sense of perspective.

    You're the one who's missing the sense of perspective - why care if someone calls you a Fred?

    thank you very much, Fred.

    K. Gringioni Bike Dick
     
  5. "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > What? Based on your analogy - the degrading of novices by the more experienced some how advances
    > the latter?

    Umm . . . no, having fun at the expense of someone else is similar to moving up at the expense of
    someone else in the sense that someone pays.

    > You are not only a "Bike Dick" but a stupid one at that.

    OK there, Fred. Stick around for awhile before posting and you may learn something.

    K. Gringioni Veteran Bike Dick
     
  6. Tim Lambert

    Tim Lambert Guest

    My posting had nothing to do with being passed, dropped, or waving.

    By "hard time" I was referring to an attitude.

    I don't know why I even posted - letting off steam on a bad day I guess.

    It's not like I really expected any of the knuckle heads to actually give a crap.

    Especially with the tone that I initially took - again I'm sorry for that part.

    "K. J. Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    race
    > > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs
    and
    > > > organized events
    > >
    > > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    > >
    > > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard
    time.
    > > -or- Arrogant cyclists that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard
    time.
    >
    > A "hard time" -- what do you mean by that? By the fact you're passed so easily on the flats or a
    > hill climb? Don't equate skills and strength with arrogance. Skills and strength take time and
    > dedication. You cannot aquire both on your own without proper coaching from someone hopefully much
    > more experienced.
    >
    > Is it "arrogant" if a good cyclist doesn't wave to you? Only a Fred would think that.
    >
    > > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    ignorant/stupid -
    > > they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    need
    > > to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".
    >
    > Lots of Freds are pretenders and/or ignorant. Someone who is arrogant without style, grace, or
    > strength is the King Fred.
    >
    > -Ken
    >
    > > Do I formally race? No. Do I ride with a club? Not very often. Do I
    ride
    > > 15000 miles a year? No.
    > >
    > > Do I have fun cycling? Yes. Does cycling help me stay fit? Yes. Do I appreciate good
    > > equipment? Yes.
    > >
    > > Sure Nick you might be an ok rider as compared to someone new to the
    sport,

    you
    > > Nick - you arrogant asshole. Everything is relative, next to a *real* cyclist (i.e. pro), *you*
    > > are the "fred pretender".
    > >
    > > (Sorry to the rest of RBR that actually helps and encourages people of lessor abilities and/or
    > > experience. I just couldn't let another post
    like
    > > that one go by.)
    > >
    > > - Tim (rather be a fred than an arrogant dick head) Lambert
     
  7. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > You're the one who's missing the sense of perspective - why care if someone calls you a Fred?
    >
    >
    > thank you very much, Fred.

    Thanks for proving what a complete idiot you are.

    You haven't the slightest idea of how I ride or even what I ride.

    --Bill Davidson
     
  8. Urhome

    Urhome Guest

    I was born and raised in San Diego and never had incidents (I was hit in the shoulder once with an
    apple but I was in a bike path that was well off the roadway and that would have been an act by a
    passenger that probably has been apprehended and sentenced for far worse crimes by now).

    When I drive up to Julian or up the Sunrise highway to Laguna, I wonder why I was never run down on
    such narrow shoulders when I rode a bike on them... drivers may have cursed but they must have
    exercised caution and I was never honked at. The worst I've been hurt is offroad where there are no
    cars at all.

    "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > henry wrote:
    > > > I'm curious to know if cyclists in other countries encounter such
    > disrespect
    > > > also or if it is a uniquely American problem.
    > >
    > > I don't think it's uniquely American but we probably have it worse than most places. I've heard
    > > that in China (which has more cyclists than any other country) as more people have become able
    > > to afford cars in recent years, they are starting to have such incidents.
    > >
    > > I live in a fairly bike friendly town (San Diego) but I still get harassed around once a month
    > > or so. I always get nervous when I go a few months without because it always seems to mean I'm
    > > going to get 2-3 in a week to make up for it.
    > >
    > > At least the cops here are mostly bike friendly. They even have a bike patrol in the
    > > downtown area.
    > >
    > > Most of the people who harass me are men in pickup trucks with the occasional idiot in a sports
    > > car. Not all of the pickup drivers are white rednecks. Some are the mexican version of redneck;
    > > which I'm not sure has a name but the attitude is the same. I also seem to get buzzed (but
    > > usually not yelled at) by middle aged women in SUV's a lot these days. They've gotten very
    > > aggressive and seem to have no notion of right of way other than might makes right.
    > >
    > > --Bill Davidson
    > >
    > I was out for a four hour "Tour de North County" the other day. (O'side
    to
    > Escon. to Poway to DM and back to O'side for those in SD) NOT ONE TIME
    did
    > someone harass me on purpose. One girl that actually gave me a thumbs up! Amazing! I was wondering
    > if it was 'cause the Toor Day Frantz was on...
    >
    > Mike
     
  9. "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > You're the one who's missing the sense of perspective - why care if
    someone
    > > calls you a Fred?
    > >
    > >
    > > thank you very much, Fred.
    >
    > Thanks for proving what a complete idiot you are.
    >
    > You haven't the slightest idea of how I ride or even what I ride.

    Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what you ride.

    Don't worry, you'll get it someday (maybe).

    have a nice day,

    K. Gringioni
     
  10. Chris Hamlin

    Chris Hamlin Guest

    "Shawn Jelley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > my fellow americans, don't take this wrong, but if the way cyclists are treated on the road in the
    > greater NY/Long Island area is any indication of the society as a whole, society must be in the
    > crapper if you ask me. if a day passes here on LI when i don't almost get a 'love-tap' from an SUV
    > i feel like the luckiest man alive. yesterday i saw a gentleman in his 60's who received a light
    > tap from a Hummer H2 when pulling out onto a main road, fortunately he wasn't really hurt at all.
    > according to the laws here, from what i know, autos and cycles are the same despite their distinct
    > differences. that said, the rest of NY isn't all that bad, upstate NY is a substantially nicer
    > place to be a cyclist. and the #1 difference between upstate NY and 'city' NY/LI, besides the
    > surroundings, is the money people have. downstate drivers lack any modesty because they are
    > 'better' than everyone else, and their cars are bigger than everyone elses. i've always found that
    > where people have less money in the bank, they tend to be more appreciative and respectful of
    > others. i could swear it is some crude driving game around long island where drivers amass points
    > for passing as close as possible to the 20 cyclists left here. but of course, once they nearly hit
    > you, you tell them or flip them off, ohh then the 'you know what' is really going down. in
    > summation, absolute lack of respect completely, but at least they don't throw things at me, but
    > the SUV's are more than adequate a torture for this cyclist.
    >

    I also ride on LI, some in NYC. I guess I've just gotten used to what I've got. What I've got is
    lots of getting "buzzed", the occassional scare tactics (yells/honks trying to get you to crash
    without any traceable evidence), and once in a while a sarcastic "go go go!". You also have a nut or
    two rolling around loose. But so far no one has thrown anything at me or run into me (so far).

    If I had to pick, I'd probably say LI is worse than NYC.

    I'm not an SUV fan, but have to admit that I don't see SUV drivers as being any worse than, say,
    Camaros. Out of two group-ride incidents that could be called "road rage", one was a pickup and
    another was a Saturn sedan. And non-descript middle-agers (like me) in non-descript middle-size
    sedans are pretty adept at squeezing you over. I think it is to show how much of a hurry they are
    in, their time is so important, which yours must not be if you are on a bike, so why are you wasting
    theirs, can't you see they're in a hurry??

    Of course this is a little wacky. The bicyclist is just a convenient target compared to a
    less-confident driver, or one slowing at every intersection to read signs, or one on a cell phone,
    or a big truck, or ... . And there aren't a lot of cyclists on LI, as you say.

    On rides on my own (where I can account for all the riders' actions :), I don't see a big difference
    between "everyday rider" and "full kit". It seems roughly as bad either way.

    Perhaps it is just a function of what you expect and are used to. My expectations are pretty low.
    Sometimes the hairs on my neck stand up when I'm passed (and it's really close); it can be bad. But
    at least I've never been conked with a bottle or actually hit. On the good side, I now have nerves
    of Reynolds 531 and can't be spooked into crashing on my own. Somebody is going to have to hit me to
    get me to go down (that's not a dare!).
     
  11. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what you ride.

    No Fred would ever consider riding my bike. It's too old and not shiney enough or light enough or
    expensive enough. I ride because I enjoy it. I'm not trying to impress anybody. The only people who
    act impressed by my bike are people who know nothing about bikes and I think even they are just
    trying to be nice.

    > Don't worry, you'll get it someday (maybe).

    Other than you, nobody's ever called me Fred. You only called me Fred because I called you on your
    B.S. and you wanted to provoke me.

    Denigrating other people is something done to compensate for ones own insecurities. I'm sorry that
    you feel so bad about yourself that you have to put down others to feel better. Worse, that you're
    so confused, you make self-contradicting arguments.

    I've participated in many sports in my life and I've found that the best atheletes in any sport
    don't seem to feel the need to put down the people that they beat. The people that put down those
    they beat are the losers trying to feel better because they didn't make it to the top of the heap so
    they put down the people behind them.

    Come to think of it, if you were actually fast, you would be getting paid to ride around France
    right now instead of sitting at home and trolling r.b.r wouldn't you?

    --Bill Davidson
     
  12. "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what
    you
    > > ride.

    <snip>

    > Come to think of it, if you were actually fast, you would be getting paid to ride around France
    > right now instead of sitting at home and trolling r.b.r wouldn't you?

    Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what you ride.

    Don't worry, you'll get it someday (maybe).

    K. Gringioni
     
  13. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what you ride.

    O.K. genius. For the past 20 years, I've been under the delusion that a Fred is someone that has a
    very expensive bike and barely rides and doesn't particularly enjoy it when he does. I don't
    have an expensive bike and I ride a couple hundred miles a week for transportation, fitness and
    enjoyment. I don't even consider myself a serious cyclist; or at least I'm not a racer. I'm a
    recreational cyclist.

    How exactly am I a Fred and by what definition?

    I knew there was a reason I stopped reading r.b.r years ago.

    --Bill Davidson
     
  14. "Bill Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what
    you
    > > ride.
    >
    > O.K. genius. For the past 20 years, I've been under the delusion that a Fred is someone that has a
    > very expensive bike and barely rides and
    doesn't
    > particularly enjoy it when he does. I don't have an expensive bike and I ride a couple hundred
    > miles a week for transportation, fitness and
    enjoyment.
    > I don't even consider myself a serious cyclist; or at least I'm not a
    racer.
    > I'm a recreational cyclist.
    >
    > How exactly am I a Fred and by what definition?

    A very strong indication is that you care whether someone calls you a Fred or not.
     
  15. Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > > Being a Fred doesn't necessarily have to do with how you ride or what you ride.

    > O.K. genius. For the past 20 years, I've been under the delusion that a Fred is someone that has a
    > very expensive bike and barely rides and doesn't particularly enjoy it when he does. I don't
    > have an expensive bike and I ride a couple hundred miles a week for transportation, fitness
    > and enjoyment. I don't even consider myself a serious cyclist; or at least I'm not a racer.
    > I'm a recreational cyclist.

    > How exactly am I a Fred and by what definition?

    > I knew there was a reason I stopped reading r.b.r years ago.

    This is a FAQ, and here is the answer:

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=91the3%24hd5%241%40nnrp1.deja.com

    Personally, I don't use the term. However, engaging in a protracted argument with Henry over cyclist
    attitude problems which clearly have more to do with some other person that you met than anyone
    actually participating in this thread probably qualifies as Fredly. This is not an attack, just an
    observation, and it also applies to the other guy who started this by freaking out after
    misinterpreting a reference to full cyclist regalia.
     
  16. Tezza

    Tezza New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
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    I live in Canberra and the attitude to cyclists here is fairly healthy. There are a lot of roadies about and drivers accept them pretty well. Most other types of cyclists stick to the footpaths and designated cycleways - mind you there are some cyclists that deserve all they get - it all comes down to sharing the roads and understanding a basic rule of physics ie. mass and velocity rule!!
    I believe Sydney has a harder attitude but it is a large city with a pretty choked road system. Most counrty areas are fine so long as you as a cyclist know your place and do not pretend that you can take on Mack Trucks and live to tell the tale.
     
  17. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Other than you, nobody's ever called me Fred. You only called me Fred because I called you on your
    > B.S. and you wanted to provoke me.
    >
    > Denigrating other people is something done to compensate for ones own insecurities. I'm sorry that
    > you feel so bad about yourself that you have to put down others to feel better. Worse, that you're
    > so confused, you make self-contradicting arguments.

    See Henry, he's learning already.

    -WG
     
  18. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080720030837335825%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Other than you, nobody's ever called me Fred. You only called me Fred because I called you on
    > > your B.S. and you wanted to provoke me.
    > >
    > > Denigrating other people is something done to compensate for ones own insecurities. I'm sorry
    > > that you feel so bad about yourself that you have to put down others to feel better. Worse, that
    > > you're so confused, you make self-contradicting arguments.
    >
    > See Henry, he's learning already.

    He ruined it with this last part:

    > Come to think of it, if you were actually fast, you would be getting paid to ride around France
    > right now instead of sitting at home and trolling r.b.r wouldn't you?

    Fred all the way.
     
  19. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080720030837335825%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Other than you, nobody's ever called me Fred. You only called me Fred because I called you on
    > > > your B.S. and you wanted to provoke me.
    > > >
    > > > Denigrating other people is something done to compensate for ones own insecurities. I'm sorry
    > > > that you feel so bad about yourself that you have to put down others to feel better. Worse,
    > > > that you're so confused, you make self-contradicting arguments.
    > >
    > > See Henry, he's learning already.
    >
    >
    >
    > He ruined it with this last part:
    >
    >
    > > Come to think of it, if you were actually fast, you would be getting paid to ride around France
    > > right now instead of sitting at home and trolling r.b.r wouldn't you?
    >

    He's say the same thing to anyone not there *this year*.

    >
    >
    > Fred all the way.
     
  20. Russ Baxter

    Russ Baxter Guest

    I appears that the time has come to revisit the Rick Denney cycling food chain and I quote:

    "After conducting detailed research, I have created the definitive list for all cycling snobs to
    provide much-need guidance on Who To Snub Without Remorse. I provide this service to all of you free
    of charge.

    By the way, I don't care if mountain bikes are 60% of the market. If your knobbies have never been
    off the pavement, then you are The Rest of the World.

    Here's the Modified Comprehensive Cycling Food Chain:

    -Roadies--Pros -MTBers--Pros -Roadies--Cat I/II -Trackies--All, but they must own their own track
    bike -MTBers--Expert -Triathletes--Elites -Roadies--Cat III/IV -MTBers--Sport -Roadies--Cat V
    -MTBers--Novice -Triathletes--Age Groupers wearing Speedos in a group ride (plus all of below)
    -Triathletes--Age Groupers with forward position, 650 wheels, aerobars and normal cycling
    clothing -Triathletes--Age Groupers on normal road bikes with aerobars -Tourists--Loaded,
    cross-country, self-guided tours -Tourists--Loaded, cross-country, guided tours
    -Tourists--Loaded, organized vacation group -Tourists--Non-loaded, organized vacation group in
    mountains (e.g. Pedal the Peaks -Tourists--Non-loaded, organized vacation group in mere hills
    (e.g. Texas Hill Country Tour) -Tourists--Weekend century riders -Club riders with Fancy Road
    Bikes -Club riders with Normal Road Bikes -Club riders with Aerobars -Recreational MTBers
    (off-road only) -Commuters with fenders, panniers, and lights -Commuters with panniers and lights
    -Commuters on racing bikes -The Rest of the World

    Messengers are orthogonal to this ranking.

    If you are riding in a group, you gain Obnoxiousness Points for acting as if you are higher on the
    list, and Humility Points for acting as if you are lower on the list. Both points are Bonus Points,
    depending on who you are trying to impress.

    Now, you must adjust your position based on the following Unspoken Rules (never read these aloud):

    If your bike is Italian, you may move up one notch. If your bike is British, and you are a tourist,
    you may move up one notch; otherwise, you must move down two notches. If your bike is aero, and you
    are a triathlete, you may move up one notch.

    Move up a notch this year only if you have nine-speed. Move down a notch for each cog short of eight
    (nine starting next year).

    Move down a notch if you have a triple up front, unless your are a tourist. If you are tourist and
    have only two chainrings, then move down to the Tourists--Weekend Century Rider rank even if you
    have panniers.

    The Uniqueness Limit allows only two bikes of the same make and model in any one group. If the
    limit is exceeded, then all riders of the offending make and model must move down a notch for each
    excess bike.

    If you have visible scars, you may move up two notches, unless you are a mountain biker. If you are
    a mountain biker and have no visible scars, you must move down one notch. If you have scars in an
    area that is not displayable in public, and you can persuade a member of the

    in combination with below.

    getting any, and you are male, then move up four notches. Add two more notches if your partner
    is in the riding group. Add another notch still if everyone else is flirting with her. This
    factor does not

    If you ride a team jersey for any team you have never joined, then you must move down two notches.
    If your jerseys are tattered from use, then you may move up a notch. If you are a roadie, and wear
    sleeveless jerseys, then move down a notch. Drop a notch if your jersey advertises a brand better
    than the one you own. Drop four notches if you are wearing a T-shirt. Drop four notches if you are
    wearing non-cycling shorts (unless they are speedos).

    If you do not shave your legs, move down three notches.

    If you ride Campagnolo, move up a notch, unless it's Record, in which case move up two notches. If
    you ride Shimano, move down a notch, unless it's Dura Ace, which is neutral.

    If your bike is titanium, move up two notches. If it is high-end carbon, move up one notch. If it
    is aluminum, move down a notch, unless it's a Felt, in which case you can move up a notch. QR's are
    neutral, but only for triathletes. If you are a tourist, and your bike is not steel, move down
    three notches.

    If you have aero wheels, move up a notch, unless you are a tourist, in which case move down a notch.

    If you ride tubulars, move up a notch.

    If you ride with toe clips, then move to the bottom of the list.

    Move up a notch if you train on a fixed gear in the early season. Move up another notch if you train
    on a real track bike.

    Move down a notch for each stupid question.

    Move down four notches if you use the phrase "I'm a triathlete" in any group of Roadies, Trackies,
    and/or Club Riders.

    Move down a notch for each 15 pounds excess weight,unless you are wearing a Speedo, in which case
    move down two notches. Pronounced cycling-short tan lines move you up a notch, but only in the
    Summer. In the Winter, such tan lines move you up two notches.

    If, during the application of the above Unspoken Rules, you ever dip into the The Rest of the World
    Category, then you must stay there. Subsequent Bonus Points become null and void.

    Note that non-roadies may choose not to participate in the above ranking system. Roadie
    participation, however, is required.

    I hope this detailed approach to this serious problem will assist all of you in determining
    who to snub."

    "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I am sorry to offend you but I could not think of any other language to describe the situation. If
    > you have any alternatives to offer please let me know. Simply ignoring something is not an option.
    > Not that has any kind of earth shattering importance, but I have given some thought to this over
    > the years and that is the best I have come up with.
    >
    > Who do think I am giving a hard time to? The fact is, I am not giving anyone a hard time. Almost
    > by definition anyone that is reading here is serious enough to not be concerned about it.
    > Americans in general have a lot more money to spend before they even know if they will get serious
    > about something. The same is true for other sports. This says more about the economic situation in
    > the US than anything else.
    >

    > You are just being insecure. There is nothing I wrote that should have offended anyone. I set no
    > standards, I was describing something from the point of view of the aggressors, not me.
    >
    > "Tim Lambert" <timlambert @ mindspring . com> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]...
    > > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >It is also generally true that you don't see a lot of "pretenders" or people that get expensive
    > race
    > > > bikes with matching apparel unless they race or at least ride in clubs
    > and
    > > > organized events
    > >
    > > I'm trying to figure out which is worse...
    > >
    > > Half-brained motorists that take pleasure in giving cyclists a hard time. -or- Arrogant cyclists
    > > that take pleasure in giving other cyclists a hard time.
    > >
    > > I am more offended by the latter. The motorists are just
    > ignorant/stupid -
    > > they just don't get it. But I fail to understand why cyclists feel the
    > need
    > > to degrade other cyclists with terms like "pretender" and "fred".
    > >
    > > Do I formally race? No. Do I ride with a club? Not very often. Do I
    > ride
    > > 15000 miles a year? No.
    > >
    > > Do I have fun cycling? Yes. Does cycling help me stay fit? Yes. Do I appreciate good
    > > equipment? Yes.
    > >
    > > Sure Nick you might be an ok rider as compared to someone new to the
    > sport,

    > > Nick - you arrogant asshole. Everything is relative, next to a *real* cyclist (i.e. pro), *you*
    > > are the "fred pretender".
    > >
    > > (Sorry to the rest of RBR that actually helps and encourages people of lessor abilities and/or
    > > experience. I just couldn't let another post like that one go by.)
    > >
    > > - Tim (rather be a fred than an arrogant dick head) Lambert
    > >
     
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