Puckering of 2 Avocet 28mm tires with Kevlar belt

[Gary Young]

I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet tires (the
ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm size (measuring a true
28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.

In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge or edges
of the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured on both sides, as
if two moles had dug tunnels under the rubber in parallel paths around
the circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that
tire was quite worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired
the tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.

The second, which was used on the front for most of its life, was not
very worn when the puckering appeared (the seam at the center of the
tread was still visible in spots). In this case, there was only one
mole's tunnel. I retired that tire last weekend because of a hole in
the casing at a point along the tunnel.

I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
down to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an
air pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the
rubber is separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.

Any ideas about what's going on?

 

[daveornee]

Gary Young wrote:
> I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet tires (the
> ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm size (measuring a true
> 28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.
> In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge or edges of
> the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured on both sides, as if
> two moles had dug tunnels under the rubber in parallel paths around the
> circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that tire
> was quite worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired the
> tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.
> The second, which was used on the front for most of its life, was not
> very worn when the puckering appeared (the seam at the center of the
> tread was still visible in spots). In this case, there was only one
> mole's tunnel. I retired that tire last weekend because of a hole in the
> casing at a point along the tunnel.
> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued down
> to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an air
> pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the rubber is
> separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
> Any ideas about what's going on?



Something wasn't assembled correctly to allow that kind of
separation... or as you say something came unglued. I have had very
good results with Avocet tires, but I don't use the Kevlar belted ones.
I have had more problems with Kevlar belts than solutions provided by
them. If you have the tire that you cut apart, why not give a call to
Avocet and ask them. I would be very interested to know what they
say,,,... maybe your get a free pair of tires for your trouble of
shipping back the problem tires. I was about to track down a couple of
pairs of these tires... without Kevlar belts; now I think I will
wait... and do some more checking around. Avocets aren't readily
available in Local Bicycle Shops around here.



--

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet tires (the
> ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm size (measuring a true
> 28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.
>
> In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge or edges
> of the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured on both sides, as
> if two moles had dug tunnels under the rubber in parallel paths around
> the circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that
> tire was quite worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired
> the tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.
>
> The second, which was used on the front for most of its life, was not
> very worn when the puckering appeared (the seam at the center of the
> tread was still visible in spots). In this case, there was only one
> mole's tunnel. I retired that tire last weekend because of a hole in
> the casing at a point along the tunnel.
>
> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
> down to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an
> air pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the
> rubber is separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
>
> Any ideas about what's going on?

I don't know why it happens, but I can certainly verify that it's not the
first time. I had several do that on my bike, and saw it on some others
too. Mine definitely died far earlier, mile-wise, than they should have.
Avocet seems intent on proving that carbon black isn't really the end-all
be-all after all. I'd suggest different tires.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[bfd]

"daveornee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> Gary Young wrote:
> > I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet tires (the
> > ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm size (measuring a true
> > 28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.
> > In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge or edges
of
> > the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured on both sides, as if
> > two moles had dug tunnels under the rubber in parallel paths around
the
> > circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that
tire
> > was quite worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired the
> > tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.
> > The second, which was used on the front for most of its life, was not
> > very worn when the puckering appeared (the seam at the center of the
> > tread was still visible in spots). In this case, there was only one
> > mole's tunnel. I retired that tire last weekend because of a hole in
the
> > casing at a point along the tunnel.
> > I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
down
> > to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an air
> > pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the rubber
is
> > separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
> > Any ideas about what's going on?
>
>
>
> Something wasn't assembled correctly to allow that kind of
> separation... or as you say something came unglued. I have had very
> good results with Avocet tires, but I don't use the Kevlar belted ones.
> I have had more problems with Kevlar belts than solutions provided by
> them. If you have the tire that you cut apart, why not give a call to
> Avocet and ask them. I would be very interested to know what they
> say,,,... maybe your get a free pair of tires for your trouble of
> shipping back the problem tires. I was about to track down a couple of
> pairs of these tires... without Kevlar belts; now I think I will
> wait... and do some more checking around. Avocets aren't readily
> available in Local Bicycle Shops around here.
>
Here are several "online" sources for Avocet tires:

Sheldon Brown
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html

Gaerlan (for Avocet Cross)
http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/parts/26wheel/wheel26.html

World Class Cycles
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-tires2.htm

g to g tandem
http://www.gtgtandems.com/parts/700r.html

and others (licktons, B&L Bike Shop, etc.)

Of course, your LBS can order direct....

 

[DRS]

"bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[...]

> Here are several "online" sources for Avocet tires:
>
> World Class Cycles
> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-tires2.htm

They don't carry the 28s or 32s.

> g to g tandem
> http://www.gtgtandems.com/parts/700r.html

That's where I got my 32s. Rich was very helpful and at $29 each was the
cheapest per unit. He also didn't charge a ridiculous handling fee for
posting them to me.

> and others (licktons, B&L Bike Shop, etc.)

Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders. They won't
accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.

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[Art Harris]

Gary Young wrote:
> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
> down to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an
> air pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the
> rubber is separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.

I wonder if anyone has experienced this on the older Avocets (pre
Carbon 12) that were made in Japan. I hope Avocet's quality control
isn't going down the drain.

Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old Avocets were?

Art Harris

 

[DRS]

"Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Gary Young wrote:
>> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
>> down to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section, I see an
>> air pocket with some fibers on the top. It could be that just the
>> rubber is separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
>
> I wonder if anyone has experienced this on the older Avocets (pre
> Carbon 12) that were made in Japan. I hope Avocet's quality control
> isn't going down the drain.
>
> Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old Avocets were?

I don't think so. The Carbon 12s are made in Sth Korea.

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[Terry Morse]

DRS wrote:

> > Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old Avocets were?
>
> I don't think so. The Carbon 12s are made in Sth Korea.

IRC makes tires through a subsidiary in Korea, the Korea Inoue Kasei
Co.:

http://www.inoac.co.jp/en/kaigai/index.html

I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are made, but I
suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12 tires (25mm) since
they first came out and have seen no problems. I've probably worn
through about 8 of them so far, but no defects.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

 

[Tim McNamara]

"DRS" <[email protected]> writes:

> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders. They
> won't accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.

What's an OS order? Do you mean online order? You have to call them
by phone as they don't have a secure server (or didn't the last time
I ordered from them)- and they do take credit cards over the phone.

As far as price, I have found them competitive with every mail order
house, except for blowout sales at Nashbar, Performance, Colorado
Cyclist or Excel.

 

[David Reuteler]

Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders. They
>> won't accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.
>
> What's an OS order?

overseas order. a lot of places are extremely wary of credit card orders
from abroad.
--
david reuteler
[email protected]

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are made, but I
> suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12 tires (25mm) since
> they first came out and have seen no problems. I've probably worn
> through about 8 of them so far, but no defects.

That's because I save the good stuff for our customers, and use the crappy
stuff on my own bike. Just kidding. But since you've had such good luck,
if you're interested in more, let me know and I'll see what I've got left in
our inventory, and get you a pretty decent price on them. Not sure if we've
got 23s, 25s or both (not at the shop right now or I'd check).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[DRS]

"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders. They
>> won't accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.
>
> What's an OS order? Do you mean online order? You have to call them

OS = Over Seas.

> by phone as they don't have a secure server (or didn't the last time
> I ordered from them)- and they do take credit cards over the phone.
>
> As far as price, I have found them competitive with every mail order
> house, except for blowout sales at Nashbar, Performance, Colorado
> Cyclist or Excel.

$34.95 per tyre, the most expensive online source of Acocet Fasgrips I
found.

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[DRS]

"David Reuteler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders. They
>>> won't accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.
>>
>> What's an OS order?
>
> overseas order. a lot of places are extremely wary of credit card
> orders from abroad.

It's the first place I've seen that wouldn't accept credit cards from
Australia. They're not so great I'm going to bend over backwards to
accommodate their stupidity. I'll put the energy into finding a store that
wants my business, which is what I did in this case. I saved money buying
from Gear To Go, too. $6 per tyre.

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[DRS]

"Terry Morse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[...]

> I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are made, but I
> suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12 tires (25mm) since
> they first came out and have seen no problems. I've probably worn
> through about 8 of them so far, but no defects.

What sort of mileage have you been getting?

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[Terry Morse]

DRS wrote:

> Terry Morse wrote:
>
> > I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are made, but I
> > suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12 tires (25mm) since
> > they first came out and have seen no problems. I've probably worn
> > through about 8 of them so far, but no defects.
>
> What sort of mileage have you been getting?

Around 3000 miles on the rear. On the front, it lasts until it gets
a bad cut or just cracks badly enough to make me nervous.

I should mention that I do plenty of climbing and descending, ride
in wet or dry conditions, and I weigh 135 lbs.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/