Puckering of 2 Avocet 28mm tires with Kevlar belt

[Gary Young]

I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet
tires (the ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm
size (measuring a true 28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.

In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge
or edges of the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured
on both sides, as if two moles had dug tunnels under the
rubber in parallel paths around the circumference of the
tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that tire was quite
worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired the
tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.

The second, which was used on the front for most of its
life, was not very worn when the puckering appeared (the
seam at the center of the tread was still visible in spots).
In this case, there was only one mole's tunnel. I retired
that tire last weekend because of a hole in the casing at a
point along the tunnel.

I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not
being glued down to the casing underneath. When I cut a
cross section, I see an air pocket with some fibers on the
top. It could be that just the rubber is separating and
carrying some kevlar fibers with it.

Any ideas about what's going on?

 

[daveornee]

Originally posted by Gary Young
I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12" Avocet
tires (the ones with black sidewalls). Both were the 28mm
size (measuring a true 28mm) and both having a Kevlar belt.

In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer edge
or edges of the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured
on both sides, as if two moles had dug tunnels under the
rubber in parallel paths around the circumference of the
tire. I don't keep track of mileage, but that tire was quite
worn before the problem appeared. I ultimately retired the
tire because of a sidewall cut unrelated to the puckering.

The second, which was used on the front for most of its
life, was not very worn when the puckering appeared (the
seam at the center of the tread was still visible in spots).
In this case, there was only one mole's tunnel. I retired
that tire last weekend because of a hole in the casing at a
point along the tunnel.

I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not
being glued down to the casing underneath. When I cut a
cross section, I see an air pocket with some fibers on the
top. It could be that just the rubber is separating and
carrying some kevlar fibers with it.

Any ideas about what's going on?

Something wasn't assembled correctly to allow that kind of separation... or as you say something came unglued.
I have had very good results with Avocet tires, but I don't use the Kevlar belted ones. I have had more problems with Kevlar belts than solutions provided by them.
If you have the tire that you cut apart, why not give a call to Avocet and ask them. I would be very interested to know what they say,,,... maybe your get a free pair of tires for your trouble of shipping back the problem tires.
I was about to track down a couple of pairs of these tires... without Kevlar belts; now I think I will wait... and do some more checking around. Avocets aren't readily available in Local Bicycle Shops around here.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12"
> Avocet tires (the ones with black sidewalls). Both were
> the 28mm size (measuring a true 28mm) and both having a
> Kevlar belt.
>
> In both cases, the tread began to "pucker" on the outer
> edge or edges of the contact patch. In the first tire, it
> occured on both sides, as if two moles had dug tunnels
> under the rubber in parallel paths around the
> circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of mileage,
> but that tire was quite worn before the problem appeared.
> I ultimately retired the tire because of a sidewall cut
> unrelated to the puckering.
>
> The second, which was used on the front for most of its
> life, was not very worn when the puckering appeared (the
> seam at the center of the tread was still visible in
> spots). In this case, there was only one mole's tunnel. I
> retired that tire last weekend because of a hole in the
> casing at a point along the tunnel.
>
> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not
> being glued down to the casing underneath. When I cut a
> cross section, I see an air pocket with some fibers on the
> top. It could be that just the rubber is separating and
> carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
>
> Any ideas about what's going on?

I don't know why it happens, but I can certainly verify that
it's not the first time. I had several do that on my bike,
and saw it on some others too. Mine definitely died far
earlier, mile-wise, than they should have. Avocet seems
intent on proving that carbon black isn't really the end-all
be-all after all. I'd suggest different tires.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Bfd]

"daveornee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> Gary Young wrote:
> > I've had a problem with two of the new "Carbon 12"
> > Avocet tires (the ones with black sidewalls). Both
> > were the 28mm size (measuring a true 28mm) and both
> > having a Kevlar belt. In both cases, the tread began
> > to "pucker" on the outer edge or edges
of
> > the contact patch. In the first tire, it occured on
> > both sides, as if two moles had dug tunnels under the
> > rubber in parallel paths around
the
> > circumference of the tire. I don't keep track of
> > mileage, but that
tire
> > was quite worn before the problem appeared. I
> > ultimately retired the tire because of a sidewall cut
> > unrelated to the puckering. The second, which was used
> > on the front for most of its life, was not very worn
> > when the puckering appeared (the seam at the center of
> > the tread was still visible in spots). In this case,
> > there was only one mole's tunnel. I retired that tire
> > last weekend because of a hole in
the
> > casing at a point along the tunnel. I'm guessing that
> > this is caused by the kevlar belt not being glued
down
> > to the casing underneath. When I cut a cross section,
> > I see an air pocket with some fibers on the top. It
> > could be that just the rubber
is
> > separating and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
> > Any ideas about what's going on?
>
>
>
> Something wasn't assembled correctly to allow that kind of
> separation... or as you say something came unglued. I have
> had very good results with Avocet tires, but I don't use
> the Kevlar belted ones. I have had more problems with
> Kevlar belts than solutions provided by them. If you have
> the tire that you cut apart, why not give a call to Avocet
> and ask them. I would be very interested to know what they
> say,,,... maybe your get a free pair of tires for your
> trouble of shipping back the problem tires. I was about to
> track down a couple of pairs of these tires... without
> Kevlar belts; now I think I will wait... and do some more
> checking around. Avocets aren't readily available in Local
> Bicycle Shops around here.
>
Here are several "online" sources for Avocet tires:

Sheldon Brown
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html

Gaerlan (for Avocet Cross)
http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/parts/26wheel/wheel26.html

World Class Cycles http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-
tires2.htm

g to g tandem http://www.gtgtandems.com/parts/700r.html

and others (licktons, B&L Bike Shop, etc.)

Of course, your LBS can order direct....

 

[Drs]

"bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[...]

> Here are several "online" sources for Avocet tires:
>
> World Class Cycles http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-
> tires2.htm

They don't carry the 28s or 32s.

> g to g tandem http://www.gtgtandems.com/parts/700r.html

That's where I got my 32s. Rich was very helpful and at $29
each was the cheapest per unit. He also didn't charge a
ridiculous handling fee for posting them to me.

> and others (licktons, B&L Bike Shop, etc.)

Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS orders.
They won't accept credit cards! They're expensive, too.

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[Art Harris]

Gary Young wrote:
> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not
> being glued down to the casing underneath. When I cut a
> cross section, I see an air pocket with some fibers on the
> top. It could be that just the rubber is separating and
> carrying some kevlar fibers with it.

I wonder if anyone has experienced this on the older Avocets
(pre Carbon 12) that were made in Japan. I hope Avocet's
quality control isn't going down the drain.

Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old Avocets were?

Art Harris

 

[Drs]

"Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Gary Young wrote:
>> I'm guessing that this is caused by the kevlar belt not
>> being glued down to the casing underneath. When I cut a
>> cross section, I see an air pocket with some fibers on
>> the top. It could be that just the rubber is separating
>> and carrying some kevlar fibers with it.
>
> I wonder if anyone has experienced this on the older
> Avocets (pre Carbon 12) that were made in Japan. I hope
> Avocet's quality control isn't going down the drain.
>
> Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old
> Avocets were?

I don't think so. The Carbon 12s are made in Sth Korea.

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[Terry Morse]

DRS wrote:

> > Are the Carbon 12s made by IRC as the the old
> > Avocets were?
>
> I don't think so. The Carbon 12s are made in Sth Korea.

IRC makes tires through a subsidiary in Korea, the Korea
Inoue Kasei
Co.:

http://www.inoac.co.jp/en/kaigai/index.html

I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are
made, but I suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12
tires (25mm) since they first came out and have seen no
problems. I've probably worn through about 8 of them so far,
but no defects.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

 

[Tim McNamara]

"DRS" <[email protected]> writes:

> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS
> orders. They won't accept credit cards! They're
> expensive, too.

What's an OS order? Do you mean online order? You have to
call them by phone as they don't have a secure server (or
didn't the last time I ordered from them)- and they do take
credit cards over the phone.

As far as price, I have found them competitive with every
mail order house, except for blowout sales at Nashbar,
Performance, Colorado Cyclist or Excel.

 

[David Reuteler]

Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS
>> orders. They won't accept credit cards! They're
>> expensive, too.
>
> What's an OS order?

overseas order. a lot of places are extremely wary of credit
card orders from abroad.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are
> made, but I suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12
> tires (25mm) since they first came out and have seen no
> problems. I've probably worn through about 8 of them so
> far, but no defects.

That's because I save the good stuff for our customers, and
use the crappy stuff on my own bike. Just kidding. But
since you've had such good luck, if you're interested in
more, let me know and I'll see what I've got left in our
inventory, and get you a pretty decent price on them. Not
sure if we've got 23s, 25s or both (not at the shop right
now or I'd check).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Drs]

"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS
>> orders. They won't accept credit cards! They're
>> expensive, too.
>
> What's an OS order? Do you mean online order? You have to
> call them

OS = Over Seas.

> by phone as they don't have a secure server (or didn't the
> last time I ordered from them)- and they do take credit
> cards over the phone.
>
> As far as price, I have found them competitive with every
> mail order house, except for blowout sales at Nashbar,
> Performance, Colorado Cyclist or Excel.

$34.95 per tyre, the most expensive online source of Acocet
Fasgrips I found.

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[Drs]

"David Reuteler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "DRS" <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Licktons have a totally bizarre policy regarding OS
>>> orders. They won't accept credit cards! They're
>>> expensive, too.
>>
>> What's an OS order?
>
> overseas order. a lot of places are extremely wary of
> credit card orders from abroad.

It's the first place I've seen that wouldn't accept credit
cards from Australia. They're not so great I'm going to bend
over backwards to accommodate their stupidity. I'll put the
energy into finding a store that wants my business, which is
what I did in this case. I saved money buying from Gear To
Go, too. $6 per tyre.

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[Drs]

"Terry Morse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[...]

> I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are
> made, but I suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon 12
> tires (25mm) since they first came out and have seen no
> problems. I've probably worn through about 8 of them so
> far, but no defects.

What sort of mileage have you been getting?

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[Terry Morse]

DRS wrote:

> Terry Morse wrote:
>
> > I don't know for sure that this is where the Avocets are
> > made, but I suspect so. I've been using the new Carbon
> > 12 tires (25mm) since they first came out and have seen
> > no problems. I've probably worn through about 8 of them
> > so far, but no defects.
>
> What sort of mileage have you been getting?

Around 3000 miles on the rear. On the front, it lasts
until it gets a bad cut or just cracks badly enough to
make me nervous.

I should mention that I do plenty of climbing and
descending, ride in wet or dry conditions, and I weigh 135
lbs.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/