Punch, lack of

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Callas, Aug 7, 2004.

  1. Callas

    Callas Guest

    Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.

    I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.

    My normal ride out simply hasn't made me hold down power for extended
    periods of time, as a TT does, where you just can't let go. You've got
    to do 25/30 mins no-stopping no-resting. So I'm finding that these
    weekly TTs and the weekly TT training I'm doing are just totally taking
    away my punch in normal weekly rides.

    To be a bit more descriptive, I'm finding it hard to spin up to the full
    100 cadence. I *can* notch up a gear and push at the same speed I
    should be spinning in in the lower gear, but that's not the way to go.

    --
    Callas
     
    Tags:


  2. Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    > for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.


    > I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.


    > My normal ride out simply hasn't made me hold down power for extended
    > periods of time, as a TT does, where you just can't let go. You've got
    > to do 25/30 mins no-stopping no-resting. So I'm finding that these
    > weekly TTs and the weekly TT training I'm doing are just totally taking
    > away my punch in normal weekly rides.


    > To be a bit more descriptive, I'm finding it hard to spin up to the full
    > 100 cadence. I *can* notch up a gear and push at the same speed I
    > should be spinning in in the lower gear, but that's not the way to go.


    I suspect you may be getting overtrained.

    IMHO you need might more carbs. Make sure you get some immediately after
    your TTs and, if possible, then spend 48 hours with NO CYCLING. (It
    takes about 48 hours to rebuild glycogen reserves & glycogen synthetase
    levels are highest immediately after exercise). If you then eat
    reasonably and *don't* overtrain, you might find your zip returns.

    (Make sure also that you have enough water in your body, youve had
    enough sleep and you're not to hot etc)

    Whatever else, you need (at least) one day per week when you do NO EXERCISE!

    Less is more!

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  3. Simon D

    Simon D Guest

    "Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Callas <[email protected]>typed
    >
    >
    > > Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    > > for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.

    >
    > > I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.

    >
    > > My normal ride out simply hasn't made me hold down power for extended
    > > periods of time, as a TT does, where you just can't let go. You've got
    > > to do 25/30 mins no-stopping no-resting. So I'm finding that these
    > > weekly TTs and the weekly TT training I'm doing are just totally taking
    > > away my punch in normal weekly rides.

    >
    > > To be a bit more descriptive, I'm finding it hard to spin up to the full
    > > 100 cadence. I *can* notch up a gear and push at the same speed I
    > > should be spinning in in the lower gear, but that's not the way to go.

    >
    > I suspect you may be getting overtrained.
    >
    > IMHO you need might more carbs. Make sure you get some immediately after
    > your TTs and, if possible, then spend 48 hours with NO CYCLING. (It
    > takes about 48 hours to rebuild glycogen reserves & glycogen synthetase
    > levels are highest immediately after exercise). If you then eat
    > reasonably and *don't* overtrain, you might find your zip returns.
    >
    > (Make sure also that you have enough water in your body, youve had
    > enough sleep and you're not to hot etc)
    >
    > Whatever else, you need (at least) one day per week when you do NO

    EXERCISE!
    >
    > Less is more!


    Id agree with all that entirely.

    Also, I'd try doing some intervals. Keep these long-ish - say 5 mins on, 5
    off. It might sound odd, given that TTs involve a steady output, but
    intervals will build your speed much more effectively than just riding at
    the same pace when training; the point is that you're pushing yourself
    *beyond* your racing speed.

    Make sure that you let yourself recover properly during the "off" sections.
    This means selecting a low gear and just keeping the pedals turning over -
    nothing more. A heart rate monitor will help - "on" you should aim to ride
    slightly above your anaerobic threshold, "off" at perhaps 60% of your AT.

    Others may well be able to offer more accurate information, but this should
    help restore your "edge". HTH.
     
  4. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > I suspect you may be getting overtrained.


    Certainly I'm not fully recovered. Not sure about overtrained, though.
    I don't think I've done enough to reach that point. However, I am aware
    I may well be wrong.

    > IMHO you need might more carbs. Make sure you get some immediately after
    > your TTs and,


    Yeah, that doesn't happen. We're miles away from town and we all chat
    afterwards for a while. But I always eat a full balanced meal
    immediately after a normal ride.

    > if possible, then spend 48 hours with NO CYCLING. (It
    > takes about 48 hours to rebuild glycogen reserves & glycogen synthetase
    > levels are highest immediately after exercise).


    Can't I even cycle normally? two days is a long time for *no* cycling.

    > If you then eat
    > reasonably and *don't* overtrain, you might find your zip returns.


    It should be back in a few days. Hundred mile ride tommorow, though.
    Very slow pace though, so all fat burning, good for me.

    > (Make sure also that you have enough water in your body, youve had
    > enough sleep and you're not to hot etc)


    Yup and yup.

    > Whatever else, you need (at least) one day per week when you do NO EXERCISE!


    Yeah, I get that, got lots of other stuff to do, unfortunately. Wish I
    could just cycle and cycle and cycle, really.

    --
    Callas
     
  5. Arthur Clune

    Arthur Clune Guest

    Callas <[email protected]> wrote:
    : Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    : for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.

    : I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.

    WHy are you trying to find your "punch" on such days?

    Go slow, or go hard. Nothing in the middle.

    Keep the cadence high but don't try and keep the speed up. Keep
    the effort down.

    I see no harm in riding all the time - I don't have a car so
    never have a day completely off the bike. I do have to be
    very careful to not go too hard too often though.

    I doubt you're overtrained as such after a week, but you do
    need to be aware that going hard on a couple of days a week
    will (and should) really take it out of you.

    I get overtaken my world+dog on my commute to work these days

    Go easy or go hard. And make the easy stuff *easy*. It can
    be long (and should once a week or so), but it should be easy

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
    "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook
     
  6. Callas <[email protected]>typed

    > > I suspect you may be getting overtrained.


    > Certainly I'm not fully recovered. Not sure about overtrained, though.
    > I don't think I've done enough to reach that point. However, I am aware
    > I may well be wrong.


    It's difficult to know where one starts...

    > > IMHO you need might more carbs. Make sure you get some immediately after
    > > your TTs and,


    > Yeah, that doesn't happen. We're miles away from town and we all chat
    > afterwards for a while. But I always eat a full balanced meal
    > immediately after a normal ride.


    Its carbs you need when your body is crying out for them. It doesn't
    need to be a long chain complex job either, really. A handful of
    licorice allsorts or piece of cake would help <ducks & runs>

    A 'balanced meal' may well have a fair bit of fat in it, delaying
    carbohydrate uptake further.

    > Can't I even cycle normally? two days is a long time for *no* cycling.


    If you must, but be GENTLE. You still need to rebuild those reserves!

    > > If you then eat
    > > reasonably and *don't* overtrain, you might find your zip returns.


    > It should be back in a few days. Hundred mile ride tommorow, though.
    > Very slow pace though, so all fat burning, good for me.


    Oh yeah, so hungry you could eat your mother by Tuesday or Wednesday,
    though...

    > > Whatever else, you need (at least) one day per week when you do NO
    > > EXERCISE!


    > Yeah, I get that, got lots of other stuff to do, unfortunately. Wish I
    > could just cycle and cycle and cycle, really.


    BTDTGTT-S

    (Had F/T job, sang in choir, cycled 11,000 miles per year & did DATC.
    Found cycling to clubroom & doing circuit training totally
    counter-productive...)

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  7. Other thoughts:

    Alcohol can knock performance for ages. Avoid it or only drink once a
    week. Sorry.

    Don't even think of trying to lose weight in the same season as TTs;
    you, your times or your weight are bound to suffer.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  8. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > Its carbs you need when your body is crying out for them. It doesn't
    > need to be a long chain complex job either, really. A handful of
    > licorice allsorts or piece of cake would help <ducks & runs>


    I thought it would only be useful if you ate *enough* carbs, e.g., bowl
    of pasta. There didn't seem much point just taking in a few calories.


    > > It should be back in a few days. Hundred mile ride tommorow, though.
    > > Very slow pace though, so all fat burning, good for me.

    >
    > Oh yeah, so hungry you could eat your mother by Tuesday or Wednesday,
    > though...


    True, actually, which is interesting, because I historically I've not
    normally felt like that.

    Last night, I had a normal chicken + vegtables and I still felt
    afterwards like I could just about have managed a bowl of pasta, too.

    > > Yeah, I get that, got lots of other stuff to do, unfortunately. Wish I
    > > could just cycle and cycle and cycle, really.

    >
    > BTDTGTT-S


    This looks like an aircraft call-sign :) I don't actually know what it
    means, I've never been very hot on the longer acronyms.

    > (Had F/T job, sang in choir, cycled 11,000 miles per year & did DATC.
    > Found cycling to clubroom & doing circuit training totally
    > counter-productive...)


    Dats a lot. Did you ever get to sit down!

    What's DATC?

    --
    Callas
     
  9. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Other thoughts:
    >
    > Alcohol can knock performance for ages. Avoid it or only drink once a
    > week. Sorry.


    Ah, interesting. Once a week *is* about how often I drink, and it's
    about 1/3 of a glass of wine with pasta. Only happens on days I don't
    ride. I've found when I do ride and I'm preparing the post-ride meal, I
    can *feel* that my body doesn't want alcohol. Interesting how the body
    to mind feedback works.

    > Don't even think of trying to lose weight in the same season as TTs;
    > you, your times or your weight are bound to suffer.


    I don't think I've even thought of loosing weight =) I don't think I
    *can* loose weight.

    --
    Callas
     
  10. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Callas wrote:
    > Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    > for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.
    >
    > I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.
    >
    > My normal ride out simply hasn't made me hold down power for extended
    > periods of time, as a TT does, where you just can't let go. You've got
    > to do 25/30 mins no-stopping no-resting. So I'm finding that these
    > weekly TTs and the weekly TT training I'm doing are just totally taking
    > away my punch in normal weekly rides.
    >
    > To be a bit more descriptive, I'm finding it hard to spin up to the full
    > 100 cadence. I *can* notch up a gear and push at the same speed I
    > should be spinning in in the lower gear, but that's not the way to go.
    >
    > --
    > Callas
    >


    Overdoing it a little, perhaps?


    --


    Velvet
     
  11. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Callas <[email protected]> wrote:
    > : Did another TT last Thursday, been a bit busy since. Finally went out
    > : for a proper longer ride today, 40 miles.
    >
    > : I'm amazed at how little *punch* I have left.
    >
    > WHy are you trying to find your "punch" on such days?
    >
    > Go slow, or go hard. Nothing in the middle.


    "Punch" may be a misleading word. I wasn't trying to accelerate hard.
    I'm thinking of the ... whatever it is, that you need to keep cadence up
    at about a hundred.

    > Keep the cadence high but don't try and keep the speed up. Keep
    > the effort down.


    Hmm. Will see how that goes.

    > I doubt you're overtrained as such after a week, but you do
    > need to be aware that going hard on a couple of days a week
    > will (and should) really take it out of you.


    Yeah. Lesson being learned.

    > I get overtaken my world+dog on my commute to work these days
    >
    > Go easy or go hard. And make the easy stuff *easy*. It can
    > be long (and should once a week or so), but it should be easy


    I'm sort of reluctantly adjusting the riding I do now. I used to do a
    three hour ride every other day, but the TT and the TT training is
    disruptive to that. I like and value the longer rides for what they do,
    the ability to hold a decent speed aerobically for a long time. I value
    that ability more than the ability to power through a TT, although I
    want both abilities, of course.

    --
    Callas
     
  12. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected]in wrote:
    > Overdoing it a little, perhaps?


    What it is is that I'm surprised that I'm tired so easily.

    All I've done is a slow long ride, half an hour twice a week doing a
    sustained fast effort, then tried a normal ride and *pow*, I'm worn
    down!

    I did not expect to tire from what I see as a workload that isn't much
    different to what I've done normally. The sustained effort stuff must
    be much harder than I had thought.

    --
    Callas
     
  13. Callas <[email protected]>typed

    > > Its carbs you need when your body is crying out for them. It doesn't
    > > need to be a long chain complex job either, really. A handful of
    > > licorice allsorts or piece of cake would help <ducks & runs>


    > I thought it would only be useful if you ate *enough* carbs, e.g., bowl
    > of pasta. There didn't seem much point just taking in a few calories.


    Umm... 100g raw pasta will cook up to a 'normal' helping. You probably
    *can't* eat 200g (_do_ try this at home when you've nowt better to do.)
    100g licorice allsorts will contain about the same amount of
    carbohydrate, but as glucose. You can get them all down in about 3
    minutes, at the outside, and still eat when you get home...


    > > > It should be back in a few days. Hundred mile ride tommorow, though.
    > > > Very slow pace though, so all fat burning, good for me.

    > >
    > > Oh yeah, so hungry you could eat your mother by Tuesday or Wednesday,
    > > though...


    > True, actually, which is interesting, because I historically I've not
    > normally felt like that.


    Well, I've been there and done that...

    > Last night, I had a normal chicken + vegtables and I still felt
    > afterwards like I could just about have managed a bowl of pasta, too.


    There again, you could have had sponge & custard or pie & ice-cream,
    which would have been 'normal' and more fun...

    > > > Yeah, I get that, got lots of other stuff to do, unfortunately. Wish I
    > > > could just cycle and cycle and cycle, really.

    > >
    > > BTDTGTT-S


    > This looks like an aircraft call-sign :) I don't actually know what it
    > means, I've never been very hot on the longer acronyms.


    Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt...

    > > (Had F/T job, sang in choir, cycled 11,000 miles per year & did DATC.
    > > Found cycling to clubroom & doing circuit training totally
    > > counter-productive...)


    > Dats a lot. Did you ever get to sit down!


    Not long enough to get saddle-sore ;-)

    > What's DATC?


    Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC) District Associations' Touring Competition.
    Points towards this are awarded mostly on participation in events of
    various categories (basically short[a], medium, long[c] and
    ultra-long rides[d], off-road rides[e, I think] and competitive
    events[?f] such as map-reading and freewheeling contests) Many of the
    Audax rides I did also qualified towards DATC.

    Don't take everything I say too seriously though. I'm a woman of
    *extremely* low aerobic capacity (tested when I was on a Sports Medicine
    course at Lillieshall). You are not.

    Tricks I used to help me move included eating pudding before main course
    on some rides, cramming carbs and using my brain when my body couldn't
    really deliver. I'm really proud of what I managed to achieve - it was
    attitude much more than physical ability...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  14. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Callas wrote:
    > [email protected]in wrote:
    >
    >>Overdoing it a little, perhaps?

    >
    >
    > What it is is that I'm surprised that I'm tired so easily.
    >
    > All I've done is a slow long ride, half an hour twice a week doing a
    > sustained fast effort, then tried a normal ride and *pow*, I'm worn
    > down!
    >
    > I did not expect to tire from what I see as a workload that isn't much
    > different to what I've done normally. The sustained effort stuff must
    > be much harder than I had thought.
    >
    > --
    > Callas


    I think it goes something like this - the harder the intensity, the
    longer it takes to recover from. The lower the intensity, the longer
    you can do it, and it takes less time to recover from too - perhaps
    because you are used to doing more of that too, whereas the high
    intensity stuff you're doing of late is seeing your body still
    adjusting to it.

    Don't forget too, that what you think is a normal ride will still put
    quite a lot of demands on your body, and if it is still recovering from
    the TT type rides, it's busy recovering (building muscle, storing
    energy, etc) and then you're asking it to use muscles/energy stores on
    top of that too... it's trying to do two things at the same time.

    Have a google for training and recovery and overtraining, I found it
    very interesting (have quite a good book that explains part of it) and
    also check out the Polar.fi site. Last time I looked they had an
    interesting app where you can punch in the activity you're doing over a
    week and it'll graph your fitness (rough and ready of course) and you
    can see pictorially how the recovery/training works (or doesn't!) to
    either improve fitness or lead to overtraining/spiralling down into the
    'just can't do it like I used to and don't know why' situation :)

    --


    Velvet
     
  15. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    On 8/8/04 12:07 pm, in article
    [email protected], "Callas"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > [email protected]in wrote:
    >> Overdoing it a little, perhaps?

    >
    > What it is is that I'm surprised that I'm tired so easily.
    >
    > All I've done is a slow long ride, half an hour twice a week doing a
    > sustained fast effort, then tried a normal ride and *pow*, I'm worn
    > down!
    >
    > I did not expect to tire from what I see as a workload that isn't much
    > different to what I've done normally. The sustained effort stuff must
    > be much harder than I had thought.


    It is. Much harder. You are pushing the body beyond it's normal range and
    hoping to improve that.

    I did a long ride last weekend (90 miles in 9 hours. Longest I've ever done)
    and didn't feel bad at all. I was at a meeting so didn't ride till almost a
    week later (just commuting). Went on the normal hilly circuit on Friday and
    did one round trying to improve my spinning (OK, find some spinning) and
    bottled cos my lights weren't properly charged (end of the long summer
    days). Yesterday did about ten miles shopping with #3 child in the trailer.
    Long uphill slogs. Today I feel seriously wrecked.

    I have a TT on wednesday. I'll probably go out tonight and spin my legs (not
    try to do any speed, just turn the legs over for 20 miles) and the same
    tomorrow. Then see how Wednesday goes.

    Next things on the horizon are a ride from Dundee to Edinburgh in mid
    September and possibly the Forfar 100km audax two weeks before then.

    From what I have read, it takes about three weeks to fully recover from
    exceptional effort.

    ...d
     
  16. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > > I thought it would only be useful if you ate *enough* carbs, e.g., bowl
    > > of pasta. There didn't seem much point just taking in a few calories.

    >
    > Umm... 100g raw pasta will cook up to a 'normal' helping. You probably
    > *can't* eat 200g (_do_ try this at home when you've nowt better to do.)


    Yeah, I think I can :) my normal portion is 150 grams. Last night I
    could have eaten that *and* four chicken burgers *and* 300 grams of
    vegtables.

    > 100g licorice allsorts will contain about the same amount of
    > carbohydrate, but as glucose. You can get them all down in about 3
    > minutes, at the outside, and still eat when you get home...


    Okay.

    > > Last night, I had a normal chicken + vegtables and I still felt
    > > afterwards like I could just about have managed a bowl of pasta, too.

    >
    > There again, you could have had sponge & custard or pie & ice-cream,
    > which would have been 'normal' and more fun...


    Sat fat very bad. And it's important to balance carb intake with
    protein so you metabolise properly.

    > > > BTDTGTT-S


    > Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt...


    Ah!

    > > > (Had F/T job, sang in choir, cycled 11,000 miles per year & did DATC.
    > > > Found cycling to clubroom & doing circuit training totally
    > > > counter-productive...)

    >
    > > Dats a lot. Did you ever get to sit down!

    >
    > Not long enough to get saddle-sore ;-)


    Something of another problem I'm currently facing, too =)

    > > What's DATC?

    >
    > Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC) District Associations' Touring Competition.
    > Points towards this are awarded mostly on participation in events of
    > various categories (basically short[a], medium, long[c] and
    > ultra-long rides[d], off-road rides[e, I think] and competitive
    > events[?f] such as map-reading and freewheeling contests) Many of the
    > Audax rides I did also qualified towards DATC.
    >
    > Don't take everything I say too seriously though. I'm a woman of
    > *extremely* low aerobic capacity (tested when I was on a Sports Medicine
    > course at Lillieshall). You are not.


    I could be a woman :) how would you know I'm not? ;)

    > Tricks I used to help me move included eating pudding before main course
    > on some rides, cramming carbs and using my brain when my body couldn't
    > really deliver. I'm really proud of what I managed to achieve - it was
    > attitude much more than physical ability...


    Indeed. Sumo wrestling has the idea that there are three aspects; size,
    skill and attitude. The best ever Sumo wrestler, can't remember his
    name now, had skill and attitude, but was a pretty small bloke.

    --
    Callas
     
  17. Callas

    Callas Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > > Umm... 100g raw pasta will cook up to a 'normal' helping. You probably
    > > *can't* eat 200g (_do_ try this at home when you've nowt better to do.)

    >
    > Yeah, I think I can :) my normal portion is 150 grams. Last night I
    > could have eaten that *and* four chicken burgers *and* 300 grams of
    > vegtables.


    Actually my normal normal portion is 150g pasta plus 125g mince, too.

    --
    Callas (burp)
     
  18. Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > [email protected]et.co.uk wrote:
    > > > Callas <[email protected]>typed


    > > > Umm... 100g raw pasta will cook up to a 'normal' helping. You probably
    > > > *can't* eat 200g (_do_ try this at home when you've nowt better to do.)

    > >
    > > Yeah, I think I can :) my normal portion is 150 grams. Last night I
    > > could have eaten that *and* four chicken burgers *and* 300 grams of
    > > vegtables.


    > Actually my normal normal portion is 150g pasta plus 125g mince, too.


    but the saturated fat in a piece of cake is 'bad'?...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  19. Arthur Clune

    Arthur Clune Guest

    Callas <[email protected]> wrote:

    : I did not expect to tire from what I see as a workload that isn't much
    : different to what I've done normally. The sustained effort stuff must
    : be much harder than I had thought.

    Steady state distance (what you've been doing) is easy. Speed is hard.
    As you are finding.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
    "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook
     
  20. Arthur Clune

    Arthur Clune Guest

    Callas <[email protected]> wrote:

    : disruptive to that. I like and value the longer rides for what they do,
    : the ability to hold a decent speed aerobically for a long time.

    That comes from the TT training. As your max speed goes up, your "crusing"
    speed will go up as well.

    It's why I think speed work is useful for long distance riders.

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
    "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook
     
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