Purchase disaster #2

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Michael Warner, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. No, not another purchase, just an update :)

    My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
    928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
    only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
    45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).

    It does seem (from this limited sample!) as though carbon bikes just
    don't work for some people - he takes a medium frame, but he's only
    62kg. I'll find out tomorrow whether he's trying any more bikes, or
    at a standoff with the shop.

    It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
    whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
    from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
    riding.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
    Tags:


  2. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    > No, not another purchase, just an update :)
    >
    > My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
    > 928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    > of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
    > only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
    > 45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).


    >It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
    >whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
    >from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
    >riding.
    >


    Q. So what's the common denominator?
    A. The rider.
    45-50km/h are flat road speeds.
    "Refund? Refund? Refund? Refund? refund refund" ...quote from
    Breaking Away 1979.
    God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
    properly with the mind he's got.

    --
    Mark Lee
     
  3. DJ

    DJ Guest

    "Michael Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > No, not another purchase, just an update :)
    >
    > My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
    > 928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    > of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
    > only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
    > 45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).
    >
    > It does seem (from this limited sample!) as though carbon bikes just
    > don't work for some people - he takes a medium frame, but he's only
    > 62kg. I'll find out tomorrow whether he's trying any more bikes, or
    > at a standoff with the shop.
    >
    > It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
    > whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
    > from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
    > riding.
    >
    > --
    > bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo


    At 62kg's with a light frame, I'm just wondering if the wobble is the last
    sensation just before lift off.
     
  4. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    Agree ( ithink i mentioned in 1st thread that mate being lighter was something to look at...)

    when in the movie is that quote?
    Love that movie

    F "cant convince semi driver to motorpace me tho" Dutch
     
  5. Brett

    Brett Guest

    flyingdutch wrote:
    > Mark Lee Wrote:
    >
    >>Q. So what's the common denominator?
    >>A. The rider.
    >>45-50km/h are flat road speeds.
    >>"Refund? Refund? Refund? Refund? refund refund" ...quote from
    >>Breaking Away 1979.
    >>God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
    >>properly with the mind he's got.
    >>
    >>--
    >>Mark Lee

    >
    >
    > Agree ( ithink i mentioned in 1st thread that mate being lighter was
    > something to look at...)
    >
    > when in the movie is that quote?
    > Love that movie
    >
    > F "cant convince semi driver to motorpace me tho" Dutch
    >
    >

    SPOILER ALERT:


    Haven't seen the movie for 20 years, but it is where the son was working
    at dad's car yard and gives a refund to some blokes who bought their
    cheap bunky back whennit broke down. Ends up as the catalyst for dad's
    nervous breakdown...

    Love that movie...

    --
    Brett
     
  6. Gemma_k

    Gemma_k Guest

    "Michael Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > No, not another purchase, just an update :)
    >
    > My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
    > 928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    > of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
    > only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
    > 45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).
    >
    > It does seem (from this limited sample!) as though carbon bikes just
    > don't work for some people - he takes a medium frame, but he's only
    > 62kg. I'll find out tomorrow whether he's trying any more bikes, or
    > at a standoff with the shop.
    >
    > It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
    > whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
    > from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
    > riding.


    Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here. He
    must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
    to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
    of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.
    Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?
    Gemma
     
  7. Bikesoiler

    Bikesoiler New Member

    Joined:
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    <Snip>
    they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    of his riding position.
    <Snip>

    I agree, take him back for a refund. :p
     
  8. Yuri Budilov

    Yuri Budilov Guest

    "Bikesoiler" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    >
    > <Snip>
    > they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
    > of his riding position.
    > <Snip>
    >
    > I agree, take him back for a refund. :p
    >
    >
    > --
    > Bikesoiler
    >


    whereas I would generally agree with everyone here (rider problem likely),
    one other possibility may exist - new tyres less than even? For example, I
    have Specialized All Condition Pro 700*23c tyres on my 2005 Roubaix Comp
    which kind of wobbled a bit until they got fully "run-in" after a few
    hundred km. Now the bike is tracking true and straight.

    PS I road tested 2005 Bianchi 928 Veloce-10 ($4500) - a nice bike - and then
    tried a $5000 2005 Specialized Roubaix Comp. For me there was no comparison,
    I immediately bought Specialized. Your mileage may vary.
     
  9. On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:33:00 GMT, Mark Lee wrote:

    > 45-50km/h are flat road speeds.


    It doesn't happen when he's pedalling solidly (i.e. on the flat or gentle
    downhill).

    > God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
    > properly with the mind he's got.


    Since you haven't sat behind him and watched him try all sorts of
    positions on these bikes, I find that comment pretty arrogant.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  10. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:48:57 +1030, Gemma_k wrote:

    > Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here.


    Oh course - I never suggested that there's anything inherently wrong with
    these bikes, just the /combination/ of light bike and very light rider.

    > He
    > must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
    > to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
    > of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.


    We've tried all this, of course, and everything else short of doing
    handstands on it.

    > Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?


    No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  11. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:45:09 GMT, Yuri Budilov wrote:

    > PS I road tested 2005 Bianchi 928 Veloce-10 ($4500) - a nice bike - and then
    > tried a $5000 2005 Specialized Roubaix Comp. For me there was no comparison,
    > I immediately bought Specialized. Your mileage may vary.


    I wasn't taken by the Veloce gear. It seemed to be quite heavy (according
    to the highly scientific rear-end-lift test), and the up-change tabs are
    awkwardly placed for cruising and impossibly placed for sprinting. I
    didn't ride it, though.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  12. hippy

    hippy Guest

    Michael Warner wrote:
    > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:48:57 +1030, Gemma_k wrote:
    >>Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here.

    >
    > Oh course - I never suggested that there's anything inherently wrong with
    > these bikes, just the /combination/ of light bike and very light rider.


    The Euro Pros seem to manage just fine with that combo and they are
    probably lighter still.

    >>He must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
    >>to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
    >>of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.

    >
    > We've tried all this, of course, and everything else short of doing
    > handstands on it.


    Has he ridden no-hands down one of these hills at 50, 60, 70, whatever?

    I do all my descending with a handstand.. try that. ;)

    >>Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?

    >
    > No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.


    How large is the "wobble"?

    If ridden no-hands is the bike uncontrollable?

    Have 'you' ridden the bike yet? It doesn't matter about size if you're
    coasting down the hill.

    hippy
    "no hands!"
     
  13. On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:46:04 +1100, hippy wrote:

    > The Euro Pros seem to manage just fine with that combo and they are
    > probably lighter still.


    Good point, where climbers are concerned. Of course, they'd get
    custom geometry, and maybe even custom construction, if any such
    problems appeared.

    > Has he ridden no-hands down one of these hills at 50, 60, 70, whatever?


    No, not no-hands, but with just a couple of fingers resting on the bars
    on each side.

    > I do all my descending with a handstand.. try that. ;)


    Right :)

    > How large is the "wobble"?


    It looks to me as though the bar ends travel about 4 inches back
    and forth once it sets in.

    > If ridden no-hands is the bike uncontrollable?
    >
    > Have 'you' ridden the bike yet? It doesn't matter about size if you're
    > coasting down the hill.


    No, I'd like to try, and I've offered to swap the bikes down a hill, but
    he won't go for it, unfortunately. I'm not sure why he's blocking the
    progress of science like this :)

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  14. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...
    > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:33:00 GMT, Mark Lee wrote:
    >
    > > 45-50km/h are flat road speeds.

    >
    > It doesn't happen when he's pedalling solidly (i.e. on the flat or gentle
    > downhill).
    >
    > > God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
    > > properly with the mind he's got.

    >
    > Since you haven't sat behind him and watched him try all sorts of
    > positions on these bikes, I find that comment pretty arrogant.
    >
    >

    Well, some people just wobble... no matter what bike they're on.
    --
    Mark Lee
     
  15. DaveB

    DaveB Guest

    Michael Warner wrote:
    >
    >
    > No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.
    >


    Been followign this one for a while and I think that last statement is
    key. I think it's a confidence thing. Last year I would do a top speed
    of around 55kmh on a steep downhill before the bike would start to feel
    "twitchy", but could go a bit higher if I was pedalling hard. I just
    assumed the pedalling settled the bike down. But after nearly a year of
    riding on steep hills each week, 60kmh is comfortable, and it's not till
    I hit nearly 80kmh that I get nervous. I'm convined it was me and not
    the bike, especially when the "twitchy" speed dropped immediately after
    a crash but increased again over time.

    DaveB "still trying to crack 80kmh"
     
  16. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    Aaaah. thought...

    solid pedalling would (back me up or shoot me down here people) will move your weight forward, ie ONTO the front fork/wheel more.

    perhaps some way to move weight forward all the time?
    seat forward a touch and shorter stem(presuming current reach is OK)
    Perhaps there is another way to fix this weight distribution problem that Im missing...

    just a thought :rolleyes:
     
  17. On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:12:40 +1100, flyingdutch wrote:

    > solid pedalling would (back me up or shoot me down here people) will
    > move your weight forward, ie ONTO the front fork/wheel more.


    I wouldn't have thought so, unless you've shifted forward and gripped
    the bars for some extra leverage against the pedals, as in a sprint. When
    I'm pedalling hard in cruise mode, I don't think I have much weight on
    either the saddle /or/ the bars - most of it is on alternate cranks.

    > perhaps some way to move weight forward all the time?
    > seat forward a touch and shorter stem(presuming current reach is OK)


    The shop put a shorter stem (by 20mm, I think) on the Giant for one ride,
    but he said it didn't make a difference to the wobble. What difference to
    bike handling does stem length make, in general?

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  18. On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:50:39 +1100, DaveB wrote:

    > Been followign this one for a while and I think that last statement is
    > key. I think it's a confidence thing. Last year I would do a top speed
    > of around 55kmh on a steep downhill before the bike would start to feel
    > "twitchy", but could go a bit higher if I was pedalling hard. I just
    > assumed the pedalling settled the bike down. But after nearly a year of
    > riding on steep hills each week, 60kmh is comfortable, and it's not till
    > I hit nearly 80kmh that I get nervous. I'm convined it was me and not
    > the bike, especially when the "twitchy" speed dropped immediately after
    > a crash but increased again over time.


    Thanks, that's interesting, and reinforces the point that small, light pro
    climbers certainly do well on these bikes (at least, I assume they don't
    swap to a sand-filled steel unit to descend!)

    The saga appears to be over, anyway - he's accepted the Giant, and
    is optimistic that he'll learn to descend on it at full speed. We'll see.
    I'll tell him your story, which may cheer him up a bit :)

    FWIW, the bike (like mine) was from Super Elliotts in Rundle St.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  19. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    that's only half of what i suggested!
    if anything i would have thought putting a shorter stem would bring his weight back, ie exacerbate the problem.

    Its not about 'gripping hard'. Its about weight transfer/location.
    A good setup can let you sit up and still have it.

    I have heard nothing but good things about Elliots from locals.
    They are always sold as the 'old school' type. persist with it.
    perfect riding position is a rare and beautiful thing...
     
  20. On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:22:37 +1100, flyingdutch wrote:

    > I have heard nothing but good things about Elliots from locals.
    > They are always sold as the 'old school' type.


    My impression is that their road business is driven by a
    high turnover of Giants, and that their prices are good, but
    service is a bit lacking and the quality of the staff is rather
    variable. Since the Giants are kit bikes, they don't have much
    patience with people who want to change anything on them,
    and they're a "pick your size and take it or leave it"
    proposition. It's worked out well for me, but I wouldn't want
    to run into real problems with one of their bikes.

    > persist with it.
    > perfect riding position is a rare and beautiful thing...


    I hope it works out for him, not least because I feel partly
    responsible for the mess. At least, given the popularity of
    the Giants, he ought to be able to sell it without too much of
    a loss if worst comes to worst, since it's the current model
    (with 10-speed Ultegra and those carbon brakes <sigh>).

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
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