Q for OKPro, or anyone (was Pay-to-play...)

[Mark Fennell]

"OKpro" wrote:
> A couple of months ago another thread trashed on the Subway Team asking
> its riders to "pay" to race. I didn't say anything because I knew that
> some of you guys would immediatly think that it was a joke. I raced for
> the Subway Team in 2004 and knew from the beginning what the deal was.

<snipped good thoughtful stuff>

> The guy who runs the Cycling Center in Belgium has a great quote on
> his website.... When asked why he charges riders to come and stay and
> race in his Belgium program he asks "why would I want to invest in a
> rider that isn't willing to invest in himself?" Think about that....

Great quote.

> experienced. It has shown me who my true friends are and that if I work
> my ass off everyday and show that have the dedication to get the job
> done, I will continue to get better. Success in cycling is so
> relative.... Who can honestly say that one person is more successful
> than another? Can it only be justified by the amount of money that a
> "Pro" makes? Or the size of the budget that his team has?
<snipped the rest>

Omer, your post was excellent and it makes me wonder: ..how will you know
when you have made it or when it is time to move on to something else? You
are young, right? Do you know a few 30-something-year-old cat 1's and 2's
who have been at it for years and whose lives still revolve around local or
domestic bike racing? Did they have a little success, get addicted, and then
their lives got suspended for five or ten years? I'm not saying there's
anything wrong with that, but hey, do you think they planned it that way?

At the other end of the spectrum, what do you think about a 22-year-old who
was a D3 pro, with a 2004 top-10 at a Tour de Georgia stage, got 2nd to
Horner (barely) in a road stage of an NRC stage race, and won some local P12
races, and then decided to quit bike racing and return to junior college?

Yes, success is all relative.

 

[Arthur Dey]

> Mark Fennell wrote:
> how will you know when you have made it or when it is time to move on
to something else?

Okay pros are pack-fill. Nothing more. They don't deserve the tag
"pro" because they are not. They are not making a living in bike
racing - they are Cat 1s who either hung around long enough to know
someone and got "bro'd" onto a team or the team itself is a fraud who
tricked a sponsor into kicking down D3 money for "marketing exposure".
These guys have nothing else going in life and this happens to be their
hobby. I'm not saying it's bad it's just they way it is. I get
depressed just looking at them.

> At the other end of the spectrum, what do you think about a
> 22-year-old...who decided to quit bike racing and return
> to junior college

Smart young chap with direction and a disdain for performance enhancing
substances.

-ArT

 

[OKpro]

Thanks for the kind words Mark, it's nice to know that there are still good people out there.

In response to your first question, I think that you have to figure out what your intent is. I just turned 22yrs old in Oct 2004, so I still very young. I didn't start racing/riding a bike until May of 2002 so I have been at this for a very short amount of time. I know that I have the dedication to be successful at this sport and really, thats all it takes. I guess that it would depend somewhat on how you define "successful", but getting up everyday and doing what you love is success in my book. The perception of guys like Arthur is jaded because they grew up in America where success is measured about the money that you have. I think that in order to be successful in cycling especially in the US you have to look away from the mainstream ideal on dollar signs. Again, it boils down to doing what you love. I know some guys that are in the age bracket that you are talking about, 30+, maybe just turned "pro" and are trying to be successful. These guys are great guys to have around. They are strong and experienced. Most have been racing for a long time.... and they don't have the ego that it seems everybody thinks they have. For the majority of these guys their intent was not about turning "pro" but doing what they love and it worked out that they got their chance kinda late. Look at Ludo Deircksens in Europe, he turned professional at a older than average age, same with Eric Wolhberg here in the states. These guys make a decent living racing their bikes, but they are not making a fortune. When it boils down to it, a man or woman that wants to be successful at cycling has to do it for themselves and look past what anybody else thinks.

On the other end of the spectrum.... I think that I know who you are talking about and it's too bad that he chose to leave the sport. But again, cycling is such a hard sport than if you don't believe 100% in yourself and your ability to succeed then you won't make it. The rider you are talking about has enormous amount of talent/potential but seems to lack the dedication to survive the ups and downs of being a elite athlete. It's hard racing for a small team with limited support. You are on your won with a couple of teammates for extended periods of time and mentally and physically you can get really run down. I know that personally I have been struggling with sickness for a little while and I have to trust in my body and coach to get through it. This particualr racer might come back to the sport and be successful at a regional/national level. Most of the young guys on my team struggled with the dedication that it took to be good everyday. You don't really get to have a life outside of cycling when you make the choice to try and make it to the top.

The biggest piece of advice that I could give to anyone, and remember I am only 22, is to really ask yourself how bad do you want it? If you want it bad enough to not care what anybody else thinks, your family, girlfriend/wife, coworkers, then you can make it. Dedication will take you so much farther than talent. The guys out there with tons of talent will almost always give up or crack under the pressure because they have never had to struggle. The dedicated guys will keep fighting and eventually those talented guys will get out of the way. Of course there are examples of guys that have both.... Lance Armstrong, Chris Horner, Gord Fraser, but if you ever have the chance to talk to these guys they will tell you how hard they have to work to stay on top. Guys like Arthur who trash on people that follow their dreams only do so because someone trashed on their's and they didn't have the dedication to stick it out.

"OKpro" wrote:
> A couple of months ago another thread trashed on the Subway Team asking
> its riders to "pay" to race. I didn't say anything because I knew that
> some of you guys would immediatly think that it was a joke. I raced for
> the Subway Team in 2004 and knew from the beginning what the deal was.

<snipped good thoughtful stuff>

> The guy who runs the Cycling Center in Belgium has a great quote on
> his website.... When asked why he charges riders to come and stay and
> race in his Belgium program he asks "why would I want to invest in a
> rider that isn't willing to invest in himself?" Think about that....

Great quote.

> experienced. It has shown me who my true friends are and that if I work
> my ass off everyday and show that have the dedication to get the job
> done, I will continue to get better. Success in cycling is so
> relative.... Who can honestly say that one person is more successful
> than another? Can it only be justified by the amount of money that a
> "Pro" makes? Or the size of the budget that his team has?
<snipped the rest>

Omer, your post was excellent and it makes me wonder: ..how will you know
when you have made it or when it is time to move on to something else? You
are young, right? Do you know a few 30-something-year-old cat 1's and 2's
who have been at it for years and whose lives still revolve around local or
domestic bike racing? Did they have a little success, get addicted, and then
their lives got suspended for five or ten years? I'm not saying there's
anything wrong with that, but hey, do you think they planned it that way?

At the other end of the spectrum, what do you think about a 22-year-old who
was a D3 pro, with a 2004 top-10 at a Tour de Georgia stage, got 2nd to
Horner (barely) in a road stage of an NRC stage race, and won some local P12
races, and then decided to quit bike racing and return to junior college?

Yes, success is all relative.

 

[Joseph Wells]

I would actually applaud the kid that decided to go back to school. While
he can still race and explore his talents, he also is providing for his
future. In this age where here in the west property prices are going
through the roof, the paltry money made racing a bike will only feebly
attempt to allow one to survive.
I myself tried to get to an elite level and surpass going to college. As
you get older and then attempt college it is mighty difficult to get a
degree or an advanced degree in a normal university environment and support
yourself. Then you add the other environmental factors such as job
availability and cost of education to name a few and you are battling some
decent odds for your future. I think its noble to put your best foot
forward to attempt to be a great athlete but if you sacrifice important
formative years the cost can end up being to great.
I would hate to think that you can race your hardest and have decent
performances yet not be approached by a team that you can develop further
with. In my 20 years of racing from juniors to masters, I still witness
many riders that shouldnt be on major teams, where they get dropped in
criteriums or are barely a factor in road races. I know this is life and
its not fair so complaining will not do much good.
"OKpro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Thanks for the kind words Mark, it's nice to know that there are still
> good people out there.
>
> In response to your first question, I think that you have to figure
> out what your intent is. I just turned 22yrs old in Oct 2004, so I
> still very young. I didn't start racing/riding a bike until May of 2002
> so I have been at this for a very short amount of time. I know that I
> have the dedication to be successful at this sport and really, thats
> all it takes. I guess that it would depend somewhat on how you define
> "successful", but getting up everyday and doing what you love is
> success in my book. The perception of guys like Arthur is jaded because
> they grew up in America where success is measured about the money that
> you have. I think that in order to be successful in cycling especially
> in the US you have to look away from the mainstream ideal on dollar
> signs. Again, it boils down to doing what you love. I know some guys
> that are in the age bracket that you are talking about, 30+, maybe just
> turned "pro" and are trying to be successful. These guys are great guys
> to have around. They are strong and experienced. Most have been racing
> for a long time.... and they don't have the ego that it seems everybody
> thinks they have. For the majority of these guys their intent was not
> about turning "pro" but doing what they love and it worked out that
> they got their chance kinda late. Look at Ludo Deircksens in Europe, he
> turned professional at a older than average age, same with Eric Wolhberg
> here in the states. These guys make a decent living racing their bikes,
> but they are not making a fortune. When it boils down to it, a man or
> woman that wants to be successful at cycling has to do it for
> themselves and look past what anybody else thinks.
>
> On the other end of the spectrum.... I think that I know who you are
> talking about and it's too bad that he chose to leave the sport. But
> again, cycling is such a hard sport than if you don't believe 100% in
> yourself and your ability to succeed then you won't make it. The rider
> you are talking about has enormous amount of talent/potential but seems
> to lack the dedication to survive the ups and downs of being a elite
> athlete. It's hard racing for a small team with limited support. You
> are on your won with a couple of teammates for extended periods of time
> and mentally and physically you can get really run down. I know that
> personally I have been struggling with sickness for a little while and
> I have to trust in my body and coach to get through it. This particualr
> racer might come back to the sport and be successful at a
> regional/national level. Most of the young guys on my team struggled
> with the dedication that it took to be good everyday. You don't really
> get to have a life outside of cycling when you make the choice to try
> and make it to the top.
>
> The biggest piece of advice that I could give to anyone, and remember
> I am only 22, is to really ask yourself how bad do you want it? If you
> want it bad enough to not care what anybody else thinks, your family,
> girlfriend/wife, coworkers, then you can make it. Dedication will take
> you so much farther than talent. The guys out there with tons of talent
> will almost always give up or crack under the pressure because they have
> never had to struggle. The dedicated guys will keep fighting and
> eventually those talented guys will get out of the way. Of course there
> are examples of guys that have both.... Lance Armstrong, Chris Horner,
> Gord Fraser, but if you ever have the chance to talk to these guys they
> will tell you how hard they have to work to stay on top. Guys like
> Arthur who trash on people that follow their dreams only do so because
> someone trashed on their's and they didn't have the dedication to stick
> it out.
>
>
>
>
> Mark Fennell Wrote:
> > "OKpro" wrote:
> > > A couple of months ago another thread trashed on the Subway Team
> > asking
> > > its riders to "pay" to race. I didn't say anything because I knew
> > that
> > > some of you guys would immediatly think that it was a joke. I raced
> > for
> > > the Subway Team in 2004 and knew from the beginning what the deal
> > was.
> >
> > <snipped good thoughtful stuff>
> >
> > > The guy who runs the Cycling Center in Belgium has a great quote on
> > > his website.... When asked why he charges riders to come and stay
> > and
> > > race in his Belgium program he asks "why would I want to invest in a
> > > rider that isn't willing to invest in himself?" Think about that....
> >
> > Great quote.
> >
> > > experienced. It has shown me who my true friends are and that if I
> > work
> > > my ass off everyday and show that have the dedication to get the job
> > > done, I will continue to get better. Success in cycling is so
> > > relative.... Who can honestly say that one person is more successful
> > > than another? Can it only be justified by the amount of money that a
> > > "Pro" makes? Or the size of the budget that his team has?
> > <snipped the rest>
> >
> > Omer, your post was excellent and it makes me wonder: ..how will you
> > know
> > when you have made it or when it is time to move on to something else?
> > You
> > are young, right? Do you know a few 30-something-year-old cat 1's and
> > 2's
> > who have been at it for years and whose lives still revolve around
> > local or
> > domestic bike racing? Did they have a little success, get addicted,
> > and then
> > their lives got suspended for five or ten years? I'm not saying
> > there's
> > anything wrong with that, but hey, do you think they planned it that
> > way?
> >
> > At the other end of the spectrum, what do you think about a
> > 22-year-old who
> > was a D3 pro, with a 2004 top-10 at a Tour de Georgia stage, got 2nd
> > to
> > Horner (barely) in a road stage of an NRC stage race, and won some
> > local P12
> > races, and then decided to quit bike racing and return to junior
> > college?
> >
> > Yes, success is all relative.
>
>
> --
> OKpro
>

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Joseph Wells <[email protected]> wrote:
> I myself tried to get to an elite level and surpass going to college. As
> you get older and then attempt college it is mighty difficult to get a
> degree or an advanced degree in a normal university environment and support
> yourself. Then you add the other environmental factors such as job
> availability and cost of education to name a few and you are battling some
> decent odds for your future. I think its noble to put your best foot
> forward to attempt to be a great athlete but if you sacrifice important
> formative years the cost can end up being to great.

As with many things in life, it is important to know when to move on.
I've known a number of talented riders that set a limit on the amount
of time they were willing to flush in the attempt to hit the big time
as professional bike racers, and stuck to it.

A counter example is a guy like Fuentes, whose life has operatic elements
of comedy and tragedy. The idea that someone his age feels such a need to
live the dream that he dopes to do it is as funny as it is sad.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]