Question about sweet spot training

[michelbrazeau]

Hi,

I've seen a lot of mention about SST training on this forum and have read the article on,

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=3232

I can certainly see that training around the sweet spot like in the examples in,

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/training_tips/SweetSpot_partdeux.html

really trains you for the demands of racing.

I realize that in the past few seasons, most of my training has been within the sweet spot and during races under 2 hours and time trials it really has paid off.

The question I have, is that since SST training is mostly in the range of 75-95% of threshold, most likely the primary source of energy is from muscle glycogen, as at that intensity, the demand is too high to metabolize fat.

In my case, I found that during long races 3+ hours, I am depleting my glycogen reserves, and either get muscle cramps or run out of "kick" at the end of the race.

I'm getting the impression that this is because I have done too much of my training in sweet spot, and not enough at lower intensities.

I realize that in short races, the intensity is mostly in sweet spot or above, but in longer races, you are often "sitting" in the pack below sweet spot.

Any ideas on the ratio of L1/L2 with respect to SS is effective?

Thanks,

Michel
www.freetrainingplan.com

 

[Piotr]

Hi,

In my case, I found that during long races 3+ hours, I am depleting my glycogen reserves, and either get muscle cramps or run out of "kick" at the end of the race.

I'm getting the impression that this is because I have done too much of my training in sweet spot, and not enough at lower intensities.

I'm sure not enough easy mileage is not the problem. Your problems could stem for the fact that you're not fully prepared for the demands of those races. I'm talking about L5/L6 efforts that tax your body in a way that your training doesn't. IOW, you burn more matches than you have in your stash.

 

[michelbrazeau]

There are plenty of L5/L6 efforts, but indeed I could be burning too many matches. I do have a problem holding back sometimes. I'll try to fit in a bit more LSD this year and compare notes with the previous seasons.

Thanks.

Michel
www.freetrainingplan.com

I'm sure not enough easy mileage is not the problem. Your problems could stem for the fact that you're not fully prepared for the demands of those races. I'm talking about L5/L6 efforts that tax your body in a way that your training doesn't. IOW, you burn more matches than you have in your stash.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Hi,

I've seen a lot of mention about SST training on this forum and have read the article on,

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=3232

I can certainly see that training around the sweet spot like in the examples in,

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/training_tips/SweetSpot_partdeux.html

really trains you for the demands of racing.

I realize that in the past few seasons, most of my training has been within the sweet spot and during races under 2 hours and time trials it really has paid off.

The question I have, is that since SST training is mostly in the range of 75-95% of threshold, most likely the primary source of energy is from muscle glycogen, as at that intensity, the demand is too high to metabolize fat.

In my case, I found that during long races 3+ hours, I am depleting my glycogen reserves, and either get muscle cramps or run out of "kick" at the end of the race.

I'm getting the impression that this is because I have done too much of my training in sweet spot, and not enough at lower intensities.

I realize that in short races, the intensity is mostly in sweet spot or above, but in longer races, you are often "sitting" in the pack below sweet spot.

Any ideas on the ratio of L1/L2 with respect to SS is effective?

Thanks,

Michel
www.freetrainingplan.com

imo you do need longer rides in the 3-4hr range to stimulate use of fat as an energy source... condition your butt and condition your mind... if you are racing less than 2hrs these longer rides become less important.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....The question I have, is that since SST training is mostly in the range of 75-95% of threshold, most likely the primary source of energy is from muscle glycogen, as at that intensity, the demand is too high to metabolize fat....

Sugars are the primary fuel source during SST and higher work, but you'll still burn quite a bit of fat when working SST. I've done four and five hour rides that averaged to high Tempo/low SST. The calories burned were far more than what 1500-1800 Calories of stored glycogen and what I ate along the ride could account for. And no I didn't bonk on those rides. You don't completely switch to sugars for fuel in the intensity range described by SST training.

...In my case, I found that during long races 3+ hours, I am depleting my glycogen reserves, ...I'm getting the impression that this is because I have done too much of my training in sweet spot, and not enough at lower intensities....

If you're bonking on longer rides/races it's because you're depleting your glycogen/blood glucose stores. The only answer to that is to: make sure your glycogen stores are topped up before events(critical half hour refueling on previous days is key here), consume enough carbs during the ride itself, and ride your events at an intensity that allows you to burn some fat when you can.

That last part basically translates to getting your sustainable power high enough that you're not pressed right to your limits too often during long races. IOW, high FTP leads to endurance because in addition to having the power needed during sustained crunch times(like long climbs) you can ride at a lower relative percentage of your FTP for more of the race(most of your pack time should be Tempo or below). Working at a lower percentage allows you to burn more fats and preserve more of that precious glycogen.

The only link I've seen to lower intensity rides leading to more endurance is that it can marginally improve your ability to store glycogen. But we're talking about the difference between storing say 1600 Calories and 1800 Calories depending on bodyweight and gender. That's not enough difference to carry you if you're having to race a long event right up against your FTP. I've never seen any research, studies or reviewed sports science that supports the idea that you can "teach" your body to preferentially burn fats with long easy work. Sure that idea surfaces frequently on forums like these and some coaches swear by it, but do a Pubmed search or dig into some reputable sports nutrition books and see what you find. Endurance comes from proper fueling and training that raises your sustainable power, not by "training" your body to prefer fats at moderate to high intensity.

Long rides make sense for getting used to being in the saddle, to dial your feeding and hydration strategies, to work on pacing longer events, and to a small extent to encourage greater glycogen storage. They can also be a great way to build CTL and long term training load also contributes to endurance. But as much as I hear folks talk about it I haven't seen a single peer reviewed piece of research that supports the idea of teaching your body to preferentially burn fats at higher intensities. You want more endurance, train for more sustainable power....

-Dave

 

[postal_bag]

imo you do need longer rides in the 3-4hr range to stimulate use of fat as an energy source... condition your butt and condition your mind... if you are racing less than 2hrs these longer rides become less important.

And one of the perks of training at L3 is increased muscle glycogen storage.

 

[Speedskater]

Sugars are the primary fuel source during SST and higher work, but you'll still burn quite a bit of fat when working SST. I've done four and five hour rides that averaged to high Tempo/low SST. The calories burned were far more than what 1500-1800 Calories of stored glycogen and what I ate along the ride could account for. And no I didn't bonk on those rides. You don't completely switch to sugars for fuel in the intensity range described by SST training.

I think, SST/L3 is also better for training fat metabolism than L2 - at least in trained athletes. It is known, that the highest oxidation rat of lipids occurs at 60-75% of VO2max in trained athletes, corresponding to the L3/SST-range in most cases.

My take of training fat metabolism is that you should not be interested in trainng at a pace, where you supply the largest percentage of your energy demand from fats as it was/is thought in the eastern hemishere (originating from eastern Germany) but at a pace where the abolute oxidation rate is highest. Your training enzymes and metabolic pathways, so absolute numerbs count, not relative, since you try to target all enzymes you have.

 

[Steve_B]

In my case, I found that during long races 3+ hours, I am depleting my glycogen reserves, and either get muscle cramps or run out of "kick" at the end of the race.

I'm getting the impression that this is because I have done too much of my training in sweet spot, and not enough at lower intensities.

I'm with DRW and the others on this.

I have experienced similar things and I actually tend to cramp much more often than bonk or lose my zip at the end. (It actually took a long time to figure it out because the reaction was predominately cramping.) With a power meter, I was able to figure out that the problem was often happening right around 1800 kJoules expended for the day. This happens to roughly correspond to the amount of stored muscle glycogen of an average human. That and an examination of my eating habits with my coach and some experiments lead to the conclusions that:

• I wasn’t adequately refueling during the 30-minute glycogen replenishment window after hard exercise and in meals afterwards
• I wasn’t consuming enough carbohydrates in the hours before races
• I wasn’t consuming enough carbohydrates during races

(The latter two were the biggest factors)

This used to happen to me in years before or even after I switched my training from predominately LSD/L2 to predominately L3/L4/SST. In fact, it actually improved a bit after the switch because I had learned a bit more about fueling by that point in my life (but clearly not enough ) .

So my answer is skip the L1 and L2 but eat more before and during long events.

Bonne chance!

 

[Spunout]

Keep in mind that fat is burned in a continuum from L2 onwards. So if you ride in L3, you are still burning all of the fat you would normally burn at L2, but with added glycogen.

Learn how to eat in races.