Question about White Industries MTB hubs

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Keith Beck, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. Keith Beck

    Keith Beck Guest

    Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
    Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
    (2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
    certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
    access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
    is, etc. Please help.
    keith [email protected]
     
    Tags:


  2. Phil Brown

    Phil Brown Guest

    >Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
    >Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
    >(2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to
    >a
    >certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
    >access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
    >is, etc. Please help.


    Why not ask them? they're in Petaluma, CA-707 area code or whiteindustries.com.
    Phil Brown
     
  3. Keith Beck queried:

    > Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
    > Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
    > (2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
    > certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
    > access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
    > is, etc.


    If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
    itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
    grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing cartridges.

    These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.

    Sheldon "If Memory Serves..." Brown
    +------------------------------------------------+
    | Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, |
    | somewhere, may be happy. --H.L. Mencken |
    +------------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  4. Bill Lloyd

    Bill Lloyd Guest

    On 2004-07-28 09:26:29 -0700, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> said:

    > Keith Beck queried:
    >
    >> Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
    >> Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
    >> (2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
    >> certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
    >> access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
    >> is, etc.

    >
    > If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
    > itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
    > grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing
    > cartridges.
    >
    > These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.


    You are correct. There are 3, 2 mm screws, spaced 120 degrees apart.
    Loosen them to disassemble the hub (be VERY careful with the rear
    hub... pawls and leaf springs can go flying everywhere if you're not
    careful!).

    They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
    issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
    sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
    10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.
     
  5. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Keith Beck queried:
    >
    > > Approx 10 years ago I won a set of White Industries MTB hubs in a race.
    > > Stayed in drawer until now: building wheels. I note that there is a small
    > > (2-3mm) hole in each hub, which aligns with an inner hole when rotated to a
    > > certain position. My guess is this has something to do with lubrication
    > > access, but don't have a clue as to what to do about it: what the purpose
    > > is, etc.

    >
    > If these are the hubs I'm thinking of, that's an access hole for an
    > itsy-bitsy Allen wrench, which goes to a grub screw. If you loosen the
    > grub screw, you can unscrew the axle cap to replace the bearing cartridges.
    >
    > These hubs are cartridge bearing units, not intended to be lubricated.
    >
    > Sheldon "If Memory Serves..." Brown


    My memory tells me the same thing- it's a 2mm Allen, IIRC. Either
    that, or I've started receiving psychic projections from Sheldon.

    Jeff "psycho, maybe, but not psychic" Wills
     
  6. mike taffe

    mike taffe Guest

    Bill Lloyd <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
    > issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
    > sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
    > 10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.


    The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
    these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
    the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
    lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
    break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like crap from
    a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
    keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
    the hub.
     
  7. Bill Lloyd

    Bill Lloyd Guest

    On 2004-07-29 10:28:31 -0700, [email protected] (mike taffe) said:

    > Bill Lloyd <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >> They're nice hubs... though the old ones with the Ti axle had some
    >> issues with the bearings crimping the axle... they did a recall and
    >> sent out hardened steel axles for the rear. This was addressed about
    >> 10 or 11 years ago (damn I'm old!) with their rear cassette hubs.

    >
    > The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
    > these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
    > the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
    > lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
    > break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like crap from
    > a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
    > keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
    > the hub.


    Well, yes, I had some lateral play in mine as well. Though, while you
    could feel it if you rocked the rim back and forth, the total play at
    the *rim* was maybe 0.5 mm. Something you could NEVER tell when
    riding, because the rim itself will flex more than that (and the tire,
    substantially more). So I argue that a very small amount of play
    wasn't that big of a deal... the hubs spun well, the pawls always
    caught, etc.

    I have maybe 10K miles on a couple pairs of MTB hubs. And had maybe 5K
    road miles on a set I built up as race wheels for the road (I later
    sold them). I wouldn't call them a POS. Sure a little play could
    develop that you could never completely eliminate, but I don't think it
    was nearly enough to have any impact while riding. Plus, the creep or
    play was lessened by the change from Ti to steel axles.
     
  8. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    [email protected] (mike taffe) wrote:
    >
    > The OP got these for free I guess so the point is a bit moot. But
    > these were *not* "nice hubs". These were an underengineered POS from
    > the git go. Yes I got suckered on them. Yes, they were light and fancy
    > lookin'. And yes, I put a lot of miles on them and they didn't ever
    > break, even before the steel axle swap. But they worked like crap from
    > a maintenance standpoint. The little grub screws just weren't able to
    > keep the whole thing together so as to keep the lateral play out of
    > the hub.


    Spoken like a true yokel.

    Cup & cone hubs (the 19th century kind like those offered by Shimano
    and their clones) have to have a bit of axial preload adjusted in so
    the primitive bearings won't self-destruct from being loaded on just
    one ball at a time.

    Modern deep-groove radial contact cartridge bearings, like those in
    better hubs, work best when they are not axially preloaded. There
    are two ways to be sure that the axle is not applying a thrust preload
    to the bearing: There can be a means of adjustment that requires a
    very delicate touch to set, because the difference between zero
    endplay with minimal preload and zero endplay with significant preload
    is not easy to perceive. The other way to ensure no axial preload on
    the bearings is to leave just a bit of endplay so that it's obvious
    the bearings are not in a bind.

    Bullseye used to provide a detailed explanation of this issue along
    with their hubs, because the feedback from mechanically ignorant folks
    clearly illustrated that they associated any amount of axle endplay
    with a mechanical problem. Minor endplay is a characteristic of a
    healthy hub using industrial cartridge bearings.

    Chalo Colina
     
  9. Chalo wrote in message <[email protected]>...
    >Cup & cone hubs (the 19th century kind like those offered by Shimano
    >and their clones) have to have a bit of axial preload adjusted in so
    >the primitive bearings won't self-destruct from being loaded on just
    >one ball at a time.


    Cup and cone bearings have been around for in excess of a century as
    the most suitable bearing for bicycle wheels. Its design allows for oil
    lubrication which flush away any debris due to bearing contamination or
    corrosion. Lateral loading is catered for in this design without
    detriment to the unit. Warped axles have little to no effect on the
    efficiency nor longevity of the unit. It also has been designed to cope
    with manufacturing tolerances of the 19C. This type of bearing unit has
    been designed for a specific purpose and as such is unlikely to be bettered
    by a unit more appropriate for electric motors.
    Pre load is unnecessary and undesirable. Cup and cone bearings survive
    despite poor adjustment. When a bearing is loaded in the normal manner all
    balls are working. As long as quality balls are used and the bearing is
    kept flushed with oil, the bearing will have an indefinite life.
    My experience with damaged bearings has been due to inadequate
    lubrication. Most usually when grease has been used as a fit and forget
    method. I forgot with new Campag' and ended up with a corroded cup the
    block side of the rear wheel after six months of summer use. Bike was
    stripped and re-lubed with Castrol LM saturated with 3in1 cycle oil. No
    further bearing loss. Re-oiling is done when turning resistance increases
    due to the grease drying out.
    Cup and cone will also cope with a broken axle.
    TJ
     
  10. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    "Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Cup and cone bearings have been around for in excess of a
    > century as the most suitable bearing for bicycle wheels.


    Both plain bronze bushings and wood bearings, which preceded cup and
    cone, have some of the virtues you describe as well as some uniquely
    their own. However, all of them pose a requirement for proper
    adjustment, unlike modern industrial cartridge bearings. The
    opportunity for adjustment is the same as the opportunity for
    maladjustment, which in my judgment is the cause of most failed wheel
    beaings that I have serviced.

    The combination of no axial adjustment, no periodic maintenance,
    complete replaceability, and the lowest amount of bearing drag is an
    unbeatable advantage for sealed cartridge hub bearings IMO.

    Chalo Colina
     
  11. Chalo wrote in message
    >Both plain bronze bushings and wood bearings, which preceded cup and
    >cone, have some of the virtues you describe as well as some uniquely
    >their own. However, all of them pose a requirement for proper
    >adjustment, unlike modern industrial cartridge bearings. The
    >opportunity for adjustment is the same as the opportunity for
    >maladjustment, which in my judgment is the cause of most failed wheel
    >beaings that I have serviced.
    >
    >The combination of no axial adjustment, no periodic maintenance,
    >complete replaceability, and the lowest amount of bearing drag is an
    >unbeatable advantage for sealed cartridge hub bearings IMO.


    Translated:
    Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge bearings do
    not. Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
    with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not. Cartridge
    bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment. Cartridge bearings
    are generally sealed for life which gives them a finite lifespan, which
    requires periodic replacement.

    Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading taken
    by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
    greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
    per ball instead of two.
    Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.
    TJ
     
  12. dianne_1234

    dianne_1234 Guest

    On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:23:47 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The loading taken
    >by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
    >greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
    >per ball instead of two.


    I seem to recall one test with the result that Campy cup-n-cone
    bearings had more drag than precision cartridge bearings (Bullseye
    perhaps?).

    The explanation was the conical angle of the contact in cup-n-cone
    bearing: The left and right hub bearings form a V. This introduces
    opposing axial forces that increase the normal load on the bearings
    for a given radial load. In other words, the cones act as a "wedge"
    like a V-belt in a V-pulley.

    Of course, there are lots of other factors, too, that may have a
    greater effect.
     
  13. On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:59:51 -0500, dianne_1234
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:23:47 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>The loading taken
    >>by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized bearing is
    >>greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four contact points
    >>per ball instead of two.

    >
    >I seem to recall one test with the result that Campy cup-n-cone
    >bearings had more drag than precision cartridge bearings (Bullseye
    >perhaps?).
    >
    >The explanation was the conical angle of the contact in cup-n-cone
    >bearing: The left and right hub bearings form a V. This introduces
    >opposing axial forces that increase the normal load on the bearings
    >for a given radial load. In other words, the cones act as a "wedge"
    >like a V-belt in a V-pulley.
    >
    >Of course, there are lots of other factors, too, that may have a
    >greater effect.


    Dear Dianne,

    Possibly this is the test that you have in mind?

    http://www.damonrinard.com/wheel/grignon.htm

    "Bearing friction measurements shattered the myth about
    Campagnolo's superior hubs. The worst bearing performance,
    by a wide margin, was posted by the Shamal (0,021 N-m). The
    Shamal's bearings are smooth. It is just the seals that are
    so goddam tight. And this was a fully broken-in wheel. Next
    worst was the Zipp (0,017 N-m). Then came the other sealed
    Campy hub, a Chorus unit (0,014 N-m). The brand new sealed
    cartridge bearings of the Cosmic and Cane Creek were star
    performers (0,007 and 0,006 N-m). So were the well worn
    unsealed cup and cone bearings on the Specialized (0,005
    N-m) and those of the 20 years old Campagnolo Record hub
    around which is built our 36 spokes wheel (0,007 N-m)."

    "In Campagnolo's defense, it must be mentioned that both
    sealed Campy hubs feature a grease injection hole and that
    both units had received a generous serving of the sticky
    stuff prior to winter hibernation. Neither wheel had been
    ridden since."

    Carl Fogel
     
  14. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    "Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge
    > bearings do not.


    Properly designed, hubs using cartridge bearings never need
    adjustment, ever. Calling this a shortcoming is like saying clinchers
    are inferior to tubulars because you can't sew them or glue them .

    > Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
    > with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not.


    Cup & cone bearings, due to their poorly aligned nature, frequently
    allow contaminants past their seals, if they even have any seals.
    Therefore they must allow periodic disassembly for cleaning.

    > Cartridge bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment.


    Cartridge bearings sit in precision-cut bores where they are only
    subject to misalignment in the case of a bent axle. Because they do
    not depend on an external axle thread for alignment, they can use an
    externally smooth axle, or one of larger major diameter than a
    conventional axle, or both, thus effectively preventing axle bending.

    > Cartridge bearings are generally sealed for life which gives them
    > a finite lifespan, which requires periodic replacement.


    Cup & cone bearings typically admit more contaminants and always
    feature looser tolerances than industrial bearing cartridges, which
    gives them a finite lifespan. When they fail, they usually cannot be
    replaced and must either be cobbled back together in a damaged state,
    or discarded along with the wheel they are embedded in. This is in
    contrast to cartridges, which are simply removed and replaced with
    new, often for less than the price of new high-quality bearing balls
    for a cup & cone hub.

    > Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading
    > taken by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized
    > bearing is greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four
    > contact points per ball instead of two.


    This would be true if the dimensional tolerances were similar between
    cup & cone vs. cartridge bearings. They are not. Ordinary cartridge
    bearings being industrially standardized and graded, they feature
    finish and dimensions typically 10X more accurate than average cup &
    cone parts, and assembled concentricity roughly 100X better. You can
    feel the difference in your fingertips when you turn an axle from one
    of each kind of hub.

    > Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.


    This would be true if most bike shops did a more thorough job of
    stocking bearing cartridges, and if cartridge bearing replacement were
    more difficult for the end user to do. As it is, there are industrial
    bearing retailers in practically every city, and bearing replacement
    can be done quickly and easily by a non-expert mechanic using
    ordinary, non-bike-specific tools.

    I sometimes buy bearing cartridges on eBay for less than a dollar
    each. If I want finer German, Japanese, Swiss, or USA-made bearings,
    I can buy them nearby on any weekday. Rebuilding a smartly designed
    hub can be done with a pair of crescent wrenches and a mallet in a
    couple of minutes.

    The biggest troubles and design mistakes with any cartridge bearing
    hubs are due to the manufacturer incorporating unnecessary and
    unhelpful cup & cone features to make them more familiar to people who
    have serviced only cup & cone hubs. Threaded axles, adjusting
    features and locknuts serve only to visit some of the cup & cone hub's
    weaknesses-- chronic misadjustment and poor concentricity-- upon
    cartridge bearing hubs that do not require any such features.

    The cheapest cup & cone hubs are shockingly cheap, and they provide
    good value given that they work at all. But it is not those hubs that
    I consider a poor bargain-- it's the expensive cup & cone models that
    have the same shortcomings.

    I consider a cup & cone hub to be a kind of bearing cartridge that
    happens to have spoke holes in it. But it's not a very good cartridge
    bearing, and like all cartridge bearings it can only be thrown away
    when it's worn out or damaged. It's a fine technical solution for the
    conditions of, say, Pakistani cottage industry. But it's not a 21st
    century First World solution worthy of a bike enthusiast's money or a
    bike mechanic's time and effort.

    Chalo Colina
     
  15. Chalo wrote in message <[email protected]>...
    >"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> Cup &cone bearings have an inherent adjustment, cartridge
    >> bearings do not.

    >
    >Properly designed, hubs using cartridge bearings never need
    >adjustment, ever. Calling this a shortcoming is like saying clinchers
    >are inferior to tubulars because you can't sew them or glue them .


    You should have used something better than this. Correctly designed
    cartridge hubs have a weight penalty to bear due to the requirement of a
    stiffer axle and hubshell than cup &cone. They also require a special
    removal tool at greater frequencies than it is required to disassemble
    cup&cone. Wired on tyres are inferior to tubulars for many reasons including
    cost. The benefits of using tubs far outweigh their perceived hassle. They
    are different, with practice the skill is learnt and becomes easy. Being
    sewn and glued on the rim is an advantage with a puncture and I am
    descending
    a hill in excess of 60mph.

    >
    >> Cup &cone allows for the frequent replenishment of lubrication along
    >> with the removal of damaging debris, cartridge bearings do not.

    >
    >Cup & cone bearings, due to their poorly aligned nature, frequently
    >allow contaminants past their seals, if they even have any seals.
    >Therefore they must allow periodic disassembly for cleaning.


    The nature of the design allows misalignment in the sense of what is
    required for a cartridge bearing. As a c&c remains a c&c and does not want
    to imitate a bearing from a washing machine motor it does exceptionally well
    despite your unfounded criticisms. Periodic disassembly is not required, a
    drop of oil every 1000 miles is all that is required. The oil migrates out
    between the dustcap and cone taking any debris including wear particles with
    it. This facility is not available in a sealed cartridge bearing, the seal
    trapping in the wear particles to cause a relatively early demise to the
    bearing. Unfortunately sealed cartridge bearings do not keep contaminants
    out, water in contact with the bearing seal will creep into the bearing and
    quickly cause corrosion. The reason being that only small amounts of grease
    lubrication are used and the antioxidant wears out relatively quickly.

    >
    >> Cartridge bearings are susceptible to damage due to misalignment.

    >
    >Cartridge bearings sit in precision-cut bores where they are only
    >subject to misalignment in the case of a bent axle. Because they do
    >not depend on an external axle thread for alignment, they can use an
    >externally smooth axle, or one of larger major diameter than a
    >conventional axle, or both, thus effectively preventing axle bending.


    C&c could be precision made, why waste money? The precision required
    involves three cuts for a properly manufactured cartridge bearing hub rather
    than the single cut and bang in the cup on a c&c system. Again the hubshell
    has to be stiffer, so heavier. The use of a larger diameter axle not only
    increases weight but reduces the available bearing space and so small balls
    and greater rolling resistance. It is not possible to prevent axle bending
    within reasonable sizes it is only possible to reduce it. Cartridge
    bearings generally used in bicycles need accurate, to the extreme, alignment
    because of the four point contact ball.
    >
    >> Cartridge bearings are generally sealed for life which gives them
    >> a finite lifespan, which requires periodic replacement.

    >
    >Cup & cone bearings typically admit more contaminants and always
    >feature looser tolerances than industrial bearing cartridges, which
    >gives them a finite lifespan. When they fail, they usually cannot be
    >replaced and must either be cobbled back together in a damaged state,
    >or discarded along with the wheel they are embedded in. This is in
    >contrast to cartridges, which are simply removed and replaced with
    >new, often for less than the price of new high-quality bearing balls
    >for a cup & cone hub.


    Cup &cone will admit more contaminants than industrial cartridge bearings
    because cup and cone are found on bicycles where water is usually a major
    factor(fair weather only cyclists do not apply here) and industrial
    cartridge bearings of the sealed type are found on electric motors hopefully
    without water splashing over their armatures. The c&c design copes
    admirably with the problem due to its great capacity for an excess or
    reservoir of lubricant in the form of oil saturated grease. When kept in
    this state no stripping down or replacement is needed. They do not fail if
    kept wet with lubricant containing antioxidant. At a bearing stockist 5000
    balls were less than two small sealed bearings.
    >
    >> Sealed cartridge bearings have the drag of the seal. The loading
    >> taken by a wheel means that the rolling resistance of a similarly sized
    >> bearing is greater in a cartridge bearing due to smaller balls and four
    >> contact points per ball instead of two.

    >
    >This would be true if the dimensional tolerances were similar between
    >cup & cone Vs. cartridge bearings. They are not. Ordinary cartridge
    >bearings being industrially standardized and graded, they feature
    >finish and dimensions typically 10X more accurate than average cup &
    >cone parts, and assembled concentricity roughly 100X better. You can
    >feel the difference in your fingertips when you turn an axle from one
    >of each kind of hub.


    I don't know of any one who rides a bike with their fingertips. I might
    as well say that this monitor in front of me has a screen 1000 times
    smoother than a piece of paper, so I type better than I write. Anyone know
    whether smooth paper improves handwriting? cartridge bearings deteriorate
    faster than cup and cone and their rolling resistance is higher at all
    stages of life than a smooth cup and cone bearing using loads found in cycle
    bearings.
    Industrially standardized also means one size fits all, you get what
    your given. No thanks, give me the component designed for the job with 120
    years usage to back it up.
    >
    >> Conclusion: Cartridge bearings are good for the bike shop.

    >
    >This would be true if most bike shops did a more thorough job of
    >stocking bearing cartridges, and if cartridge bearing replacement were
    >more difficult for the end user to do. As it is, there are industrial
    >bearing retailers in practically every city, and bearing replacement
    >can be done quickly and easily by a non-expert mechanic using
    >ordinary, non-bike-specific tools.


    If it requires ordinary tools to replace, the accuracy of fit is poor and
    that is why it has worn and needs replacement, otherwise its 2 years old,
    the antioxidant has expired and the bearing has got wet. Mechanics still
    need to be skilled. Expert and professional I consider superfluous.

    Rest of Chalo's post cut due to its repetition and my need of sleep.
    4am utc
    11:30 utc
    As a sealed cartridge bearing in not designed for human powered
    transport where weight is an issue, it is inappropriate to consider it for
    this application.
    The sizing of a typical hub does not allow an adequate size of cartridge
    type bearing for the load and speed involved.
    A peculiarity of cartridge bearings is that they are designed for a much
    higher speed than that involved in a bicycle wheel. The stop, start and
    slow conditions encountered are not catered for by the lubricant in a
    standard sealed cartridge bearing. If one of the seals was broken and the
    grease replenished with something more suitable for the slow nature of a
    bicycle wheel then a longer service life would ensue. Not so simple
    anymore, is it?
    TJ
     
  16. [email protected] wrote in message ...
    >Possibly this is the test that you have in mind?
    >
    >http://www.damonrinard.com/wheel/grignon.htm
    >
    >"Bearing friction measurements shattered the myth about
    >Campagnolo's superior hubs. The worst bearing performance,
    >by a wide margin, was posted by the Shamal (0,021 N-m). The
    >Shamal's bearings are smooth. It is just the seals that are
    >so goddam tight. And this was a fully broken-in wheel. Next
    >worst was the Zipp (0,017 N-m). Then came the other sealed
    >Campy hub, a Chorus unit (0,014 N-m). The brand new sealed
    >cartridge bearings of the Cosmic and Cane Creek were star
    >performers (0,007 and 0,006 N-m). So were the well worn
    >unsealed cup and cone bearings on the Specialized (0,005
    >N-m) and those of the 20 years old Campagnolo Record hub
    >around which is built our 36 spokes wheel (0,007 N-m)."
    >
    >"In Campagnolo's defense, it must be mentioned that both
    >sealed Campy hubs feature a grease injection hole and that
    >both units had received a generous serving of the sticky
    >stuff prior to winter hibernation. Neither wheel had been
    >ridden since."


    The quoted text supports my statements in than cup & cone bearings are
    superior through all stages of life when used for cycle hubs. Bearings
    should never be packed with grease. The figures show the extra force
    required. Overheating of the grease will pull the oil from the bearing
    surfaces resulting in premature failure. A filled bearing is different to a
    packed one.
    TJ
     
  17. On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:43:11 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    [snip]

    > . . .descending
    >a hill in excess of 60mph.


    Dear Trevor,

    What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?

    Curiously,

    Carl Fogel
     
  18. [email protected] wrote in message ...
    >What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?


    That was not a cue to go totally off topic. The hill/mountain? is Moel
    Eithinen sometimes called the Bwlch as opposed to the Old Bwlch or Bwlch
    Penbarra which contains a 1in3 hairpin. It's in N. Wales.
    TJ
     
  19. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    "Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > You should have used something better than this. Correctly designed
    > cartridge hubs have a weight penalty to bear due to the requirement of a
    > stiffer axle and hubshell than cup &cone.


    Tell me then why _all_ of the lightest hubs ever made available have
    used cartridge bearings (e.g. Tune, TNT, Hershey, etc.)

    > They also require a special
    > removal tool at greater frequencies than it is required to disassemble
    > cup&cone.


    So to you, a mallet is a "special tool"? My oldest wheel has its
    original bearing cartridges in it. At about 35,000 miles it is
    beginning to exhibit wear and a bit of roughness in the bearing
    surfaces, but no more so than the average _brand new_ cup & cone hub.

    > Wired on tyres are inferior to tubulars for many reasons including
    > cost. The benefits of using tubs far outweigh their perceived hassle.
    > They are different, with practice the skill is learnt and becomes easy.
    > Being sewn and glued on the rim is an advantage with a puncture
    > and I am descending a hill in excess of 60mph.


    This is telling. You may place your faith in tubies at 60 mph, but I
    wouldn't. I weigh about 400 lbs. and descend at that speed often
    enough, and only clinchers are available in widths and casing
    strengths that would allow me any confidence in doing so.

    When motorcycling at up to 140+ mph, I would use only clinchers as
    would any motorcyclist. But then, we misinformed motorcyclists also
    use cartridge bearing hubs exclusively-- evidently because the
    motorcycling environment is much gentler on them than bicycling would
    be! I have some 55,000 miles on my 1100cc motorbike, which now sports
    its second pair of front hub bearings.

    > Again the hubshell
    > has to be stiffer, so heavier. The use of a larger diameter axle not only
    > increases weight but reduces the available bearing space and so small > balls and greater rolling resistance.


    You seem to be oblivious to the trend of the last 20 years in bicycle
    equipment, where adoption of larger component diameters has allowed
    lighter weights than ever before, with superior stiffness than was
    possible before.

    Of course, that is adequately illustrated by the cartridge bearing
    hubs that use larger axles and fatter hub centers than cup & cone
    hubs, but weigh a fraction as much.

    > It is not possible to prevent axle bending
    > within reasonable sizes it is only possible to reduce it.


    Yet somehow over the course of many years I have never seen an
    externally smooth cartridge bearing hub axle that was bent. During
    the same span of time I've seen literally hundreds of bent threaded
    axles. Coincidence?

    > Cartridge bearings generally used in bicycles need accurate, to the
    > extreme, alignment because of the four point contact ball.


    There are such bearing cartridges as you describe, but they are not
    generally used in bicycles. The usual kind are "double sealed deep
    groove radial contact" bearings, with two contact points per ball.

    > industrial cartridge bearings of the sealed type are found on electric
    > motors hopefully without water splashing over their armatures.


    --And machine tool spindles with chip-laden coolant spraying
    everywhere, and motorcycle wheels, and skateboard wheels, and boat
    propellor shafts, etc., etc., etc. Everywhere but bicycle wheel
    bearings. Maybe bicycle manufacturers know something the rest don't?
    If so, they forgot to tell their folks who make the cartridge bearing
    bottom brackets and headsets.

    > A peculiarity of cartridge bearings is that they are designed for a much
    > higher speed than that involved in a bicycle wheel. The stop, start and
    > slow conditions encountered are not catered for by the lubricant in a
    > standard sealed cartridge bearing.


    Funny, but when I'm, say, tapping a hole pattern on a vertical mill,
    there is a lot of starting, stopping, and reversing, under heavy load,
    at low rotational speed. The cartridge bearings in the spindle seem
    to cope with this as well as they do with high RPM. They require
    replacement only every few years and few billion rotations under load.

    > If one of the seals was broken and the
    > grease replenished with something more suitable for the slow
    > nature of a bicycle wheel then a longer service life would ensue.


    WTB Grease Guard hubs, also licensed by Suntour, allowed just this:
    They had single-sealed cartridge bearings with a grease fitting behind
    them so that they could be flushed and replenished as often as desired
    with no disassembly. They proved to offer no significant improvement
    for most users; that is, a few years of maintenance-free use followed
    by new bearings was as satisfactory as periodic regreasing in return
    for slightly longer bearing life. Either one sure beats throwing
    otherwise good wheels away after lots of fettling and cleaning, as is
    the practice with cup & cone hubs.

    Chalo Colina
     
  20. On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:56:56 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >[email protected] wrote in message ...
    >>What hill do you descend in excess of 60 mph?

    >
    >That was not a cue to go totally off topic. The hill/mountain? is Moel
    >Eithinen sometimes called the Bwlch as opposed to the Old Bwlch or Bwlch
    >Penbarra which contains a 1in3 hairpin. It's in N. Wales.
    >TJ


    Dear Trevor,

    I'm not quite clear whether you mean that your hill includes
    the 1 in 3 hairpin, or 33% grade, or if you mean that the
    hairpin is in the other hill, but either way it seems
    unlikely that anyone does 60 mph through a hairpin.

    What would you say the grade is on the section where you
    exceed 60 mph?

    Is this the mountain bike trail that I see on the internet
    when I google for bwlch, or is it a road? That is, are we
    talking about a ski-resort dirt-descent specialty-downhill
    or a paved road?

    Carl Fogel
     
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