Question concerning 2x20 and HR

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by London knight, Oct 12, 2007.

  1. London knight

    London knight New Member

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    Hello:

    I am new to this forum and I have a question concerning the relationship between power output and HR when performing 2x20 intervals. I am using a combination of HR monitoring and gear ratios rather than actual wattage measurements in order to gauge my work output which is obviously not as accurate. When I begin the interval I find it takes several minutes to bring my heart rate up to L4. Once I reach L4 (while maintaining a cadence of ~ 80rpm) I find I need to gear down as the interval progresses in order to stay in L4. If I were to stay in the gear ratio in which I began the interval there is no way I could maintain the intensity for the entire interval. However, once I have geared down, my HR stays in the correct zone but my wattage has actually dropped by the second half of the interval. Should I be performing the 20 minute interval based on perceived effort (ie use a gear ratio that I know I can maintain for the entire interval ) and pay less attention to my heart rate? (Does that make any sense?)
     
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  2. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Do them based on wattage and forget your HR. HR will drift naturally upwards over time when riding at a quasi steady state power level (and not just at L4). Adjusting your effort down to maintain a HR is far less optimal training. If you are unable to complete the 2x20s at the same/similar power then you are either too fatigued to start with or the wattage level chosen was too high, so knock it down a touch.

    You don't need to ride at maximum effort level for 2x20s in order to gain the LT improvement benefits though. Riding at a power level of at least 90% of that level will have almost exactly the same physiological impact.
     
  3. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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    [​IMG]

    Link to article.
     
  4. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    +1 Alex. Forget you HR. Tyson
     
  5. cnudell

    cnudell New Member

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    I do exactly that. I do not have a power meter so I use gear ratio and cadence to simulate exactly the power-based training effect (without knowing the power number. I do know my TT / LT / HR numbers and stay at that desired 82% level for 2x20.

    Yes, you have to start in a lower gear to sustain it for the whole 20min. This will come with experience.

    I do not see anything wrong with it.
     
  6. cnudell

    cnudell New Member

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    This article states (quote):
    "Don’t despair if you haven’t ponied up for a powermeter. Even conceptual understanding of the graphical analysis below will help you conduct your intervals by “feel”."

    "Feel" to me means exertion estimate and experience therefore it is OK to use gear ration and cadence to simulate the 2x20 power training.
    </FONT></FONT>
     
  7. London knight

    London knight New Member

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    Thanks for the info. The article was very useful. Based on my limited experience with these type of workouts It seems to me that performing 2x20s on a home trainer can be effective based on feel. However, on the road this might be more difficult because of other factors such as terrain/ wind conditions etc. I can see where a powermeter would certainly take the guesswork out of the interval workout
     
  8. bing181

    bing181 New Member

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    My 2c.

    I have a trainer with power, and my HR takes most of the first 20 mins to get up to where I need it. Even after 10 mins it can still be 5-10 bpm lower. The telltale signs are with the second interval (same power, same cadence), where HR "gets up to speed" in the first 2 or 3 minutes, and pretty well stays there - though there's often still a drift upwards of 2-5 bpm over the remainder of the interval.

    As has been said, do a few and you'll find the cadence/gears that work for you. Based on my experience, I would be looking at what happens in the second 20 to find what you need.

    B
     
  9. bing181

    bing181 New Member

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    My 2c.

    I have a trainer with power, and my HR takes most of the first 20 mins to get up to where I need it. Even after 10 mins it can still be 5-10 bpm lower. The telltale signs are with the second interval (same power, same cadence), where HR "gets up to speed" in the first 2 or 3 minutes, and pretty well stays there - though there's often still a drift upwards of 2-5 bpm over the remainder of the interval.

    As has been said, do a few and you'll find the cadence/gears that work for you. Based on my experience, I would be looking at what happens in the second 20 to find what you need.

    B
     
  10. Ade Merckx

    Ade Merckx New Member

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    Hey LK like you last year I trained quite a bit on the trainer by heart rate/feel. It was ok. but Peceived Exertion can really throw a spanner into the works on trainer only rides.
    Ouite often I'd change down from 53/17 to 53/19 and it would feel just as hard, due to heat, lack of road feel etc. The rear wheel speedometer wasn't the best at always picking up speed/power changes. Coupled by the fact it was a cheap £70 trainer probably didn't help much. So I'd say continue but be warned trying to assess just small improvements accurately on a turbo based on feel alone is difficult. Sometimes its those small improvements that you want to see because they drive you on to train a bit harder and make bigger fitness gains. See SillyOldTwit's use of the gym trainer in his recent training stint from Aug -Oct for his big race - Inspirational !!I can evaluate my improvements much more accurately now too cause I have a KK:D
     
  11. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Ade, what powermeter are you using?
     
  12. Ade Merckx

    Ade Merckx New Member

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    I've got a Kurt Kinetic and its excellent. I bought it from Planet X
     
  13. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit New Member

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    Thanks for that. Tyson
     
  14. cnudell

    cnudell New Member

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    Perfect timing for this post as I was going to describe the following training session but now all I have to do is post the picture...note the second 20...

    If you really want, you can even estimate the power using some calculations/tools such as: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
    You will need to know the gears, cadence, calculated speed, and bunch of other assumptions.

    Progress to me is: cadence or gear ratio: over time I am looking to increase cadence for the same gear ratio or higher gear ratio for the same cadence for the duration of the 2x20.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ecandl

    ecandl New Member

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    Is there an ideal % of FTP to use for 2x20s? 2x30s? I want to increase my FTP over the winter on my KK. Last year, I just rode as hard as I could. This year I plan on monthly testing to re-eval FTP and then use a % of that for my 2x20 workouts. Later on (or even once a week) I plan on hitting a little L5, L6, maybe even L7. Any advice on % of FTP for improvement of FTP with 2x20s? For that matter, what other workouts are good to increase FTP?

    Thanks
     
  16. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Sure, as hard as you can while still completing the efforts and not so hard that you can't do more similar work later in your training week. IOW, there's no simple answer and it depends in part on your accumulated training load(CTL), your lifestyle and other demands like work and family, how well you tend to recover, etc.

    The key as Alex points out is that you can try to find that cutting edge where you get the best theoretical return for your investment in training time or you can back off a little and get nearly all the training benefit without killing yourself physically or mentally. Working your 2x20s right up at 100-105% of FTP might give you the best results on paper, but will you be able to complete multiple efforts and can you physically or mentally do these several days a week all winter? Dropping those down to 90-95% of FTP makes it a lot less daunting and from a training adaptation standpoint you'll get the vast majority of the training benefits with a much better chance of sticking with the program all winter.

    I tend to split the difference with one day a week where I try to push my 20 minute efforts (2x20s or 3x20s) right up to FTP. These are my mini time trial days where I try to see if I've improved and I do them early in my training week, usually on Tuesdays. Then I work down in intensity but up in duration for the remainder of the training week with perhaps 2x25 or 2x30 at 90-95% followed by something like 2x45 at 85-90% of FTP. I find this approach easier mentally than trying for full FTP efforts every time I train and was able to work a program like that for nearly 7 months last winter without frying myself. I introduced L5 work only towards the end of indoor training and saved the harder work for outdoors when the weather warmed up.

    Anyway, there's no set answer to your question because you can't prescribe an exact intensity without also asking whether a rider will be able to stick to the program and continue doing it week in and week out for long enough to see real gains. This stuff only works if you do it hard enough, frequently enough and for long enough(both duration of individual repeats and over enough weeks or months) to get your body to adapt. Push the first condition and you might not be able to satisfy the latter two.

    -Dave
     
  17. ecandl

    ecandl New Member

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    Thanks Dave, good as always. Nothing like my wife or kids coming out in the garage to ask me questions when I am testing FTP. I do have to go with the flow due to other demands.

    I know that I can't do 105-100% very often without choosing to not get on the bike. I will focus on the 90-95% range and decrease intensity and increase duration as my week progresses. Now that I am getting more structure I hope to see my FTP move up over the next several months.
     
  18. Ade Merckx

    Ade Merckx New Member

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    Use the Power Calculator. Number 5 http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/
     
  19. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Here's another example of the HR variability at quasi-steady state power (not mine BTW). In this case at 93% of FTP.

    Power is yellow and the dotted line is average for the interval.
    Heart rate is red and the dotted line is the average for last 4-5 mins

    10 sec smoothing applied.
     
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