Question on Calories



Robert Klute writes:

> If you are on a reduced calorie diet that does not sate
> you, you are hungry all the time.

No, you're not. If the calorie deficit is small, you won't
be hungry.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach
me directly.
 
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:33:09 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Robert Klute writes:
>
>> If you are on a reduced calorie diet that does not sate
>> you, you are hungry all the time.
>
>No, you're not. If the calorie deficit is small, you won't
>be hungry.

Well, thank you for correcting that misconception I had.
Apparently it wasn't hunger I was feeling. Good to know. Now
all I have to do is figure out what that 'pit in the
esophagus' feeling really was.
 
Robert Klute writes:

> Well, thank you for correcting that misconception I had.
> Apparently it wasn't hunger I was feeling. Good to know.
> Now all I have to do is figure out what that 'pit in the
> esophagus' feeling really was.

I agree.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach
me directly.
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:12:19 GMT, Robert Klute <[email protected]> posted:

>On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:41:13 +0800, "Moosh:)"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:40:21 GMT, Robert Klute
>><[email protected]> posted:
>>
>>>So, if everyone has answered yes so far, then any weight
>>>reduction diet will result in lower blood glucose levels
>>>and increased ketosis while losing weight. Yes?
>>
>>Nope, back to the drawing board :)
>
>OK, where I am I wrong? If your glucose levels are
>sufficient your body is not going to tap into body fat.

Correct. Although there is continual turnover of these
energy stores.

>If your body is tapping into it fat reserves, their
>presence is noted by increased ketone levels.

Ketones are produced when any fat is burnt for energy. Fat
is burnt every day, unless you eat a fat free diet
(difficult) or eat too many calories.

>>There are pleanty of people who resist a bit of hunger. We
>>don't all succumb to every urge we get.
>
>I am so glad you can tolerate being hungry all the time. I
>find it difficult to concentrate when I am hungry.

Sure. But why do you have to be hungry all the time? Eating
a balanced satiating wholefood diet should hold you from
meal to meal. You could try having more smaller meals so the
period is not too long.

>>>For others it is different. They eat because they
>>>actually feel hungry and eating quickly metabolized food
>>>results in hunger pains quicker.
>>
>>Nope. There are a few folks like this, but most folks eat
>>coz they are hungry. It's apetite we need to control.
>
>Yes, most people eat because they are hungry.

Well I contend that most folk eat because of appetite.
Hunger is actually a rare feeling in most Westerners

>>>So, the trick to dieting for these is to eat foods that
>>>take longer to metabolize and thus keep the hunger pains
>>>at bay.
>>
>>Potatoes are best for this Go figure.
>
>Not for me.

Wel they are when scientifically tested with a group of
normal folk. But if they aren't for you, perhaps you have a
metabolic abnormality?

>>>For them fats work better than carbohydrates.
>>
>>Or so they tell themselves. These folk are syndrome X, no?
>
>Not necessarily. My cholesterol levels are within normal
>range. I believe all it talks is some insulin resistance,
>not full syndrome X, for lo-carb to be of benefit.

Well yes, but is that not very commonly a part of
syndrome X? It doesn't have to manifest all the symptoms
to begin with

>>>Filling the stomach is less important than not feeling
>>>hungry.
>>
>>Satiation is mainly to do with full stomach and reasonable
>>glucose levels.
>
>Reasonable glucose levels I will go with. I don't need to
>fill my stomach to eliminate feelings of hunger, at least
>not any more.

Not consciously, but there are stretch receptors in the
stomach wall that let the brain know that you are full.
That's part of why it is best to eat slowly in order to let
these "full signals" reach the brain before you have
overeaten. I know some folk who stuff the food in as quickly
as possible so that the full-signals can be overridden :)

>>>They can feel full longer with fewer overall calories
>>>consumed and thus have a better chance of not 'cheating'.
>>
>>Yep. Spuds in the diet. Wholefoods take much longer to
>>digest and to leave the stomach.
>
>Potatoes have a high glycemic index.

Yep, higher than table sugar. But if you eat them in a very
mixed diet, this high GI is levelled out.

>I have been overweight for a long time, so I probably have
>insulin resistance at this point. (My mother developed
>diabetes in her 70s.) I really want to avoid foods that
>might exacerbate the problem.

Of course, and I'm certainly not advocating potatoes for
type 2 diabetics controlling with diet and exercise.

>>>For any diet and exercise program to be effective, it
>>>must be sustainable over the long term.
>>
>>Absolutely. This is much to do with psychology. Often what
>>you are used to is the most comforting. I believe Western
>>folk are constantly craving comfort. Maybe this is
>>contributory to our overeating?
>
>Everyone craves comfort.

Yes, but I wonder if Westerners don't need more comfort than
societies that live in cooperative, extended families with
much more love and support available. The nuclear family has
a lot of drawbacks to the members and was only encouraged to
keep a mobile, compliant workforce. Then food is so often
used to comfort children that if you need extra comfort in
adulthood, you will likely turn to food.

>How we perceive comfort varies and is based on early
>experience. For those who grew up during WWII, rationing
>affected their perception. For many of them, comfort is
>knowing there is a full larder and serving enough that no
>one goes hungry. For their children, then, abbondanza is
>their perception of normal. For their children, the last
>food pyramid with the overemphasis on refined carbs and the
>ubiquitous presence of fast food joints has contributed to
>the problem.

Yes, good points, but I contend that the food and
comfort nexus is universal with mothering. Little kid
skins knee: "Never mind darling, have a glass of milk
and a few cookies."

Now modern Westerners are traumatised daily, and so crave
comfort more than ever. Itso Fatso :)
 
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:38:00 GMT, Robert Klute
<[email protected]> posted:

>On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:33:21 +0200, Mxsmanic
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Robert Klute writes:
>>
>>> I am so glad you can tolerate being hungry all the time.
>>> I find it difficult to concentrate when I am hungry.
>>
>>People are not normally hungry all the time.
>
>If you are on a reduced calorie diet that does not sate
>you, you are hungry all the time. When I was on a low-fat,
>high fiber diet I was sated for a very short time and was
>hungry the rest of the time. On the dreaded low-carb diet,
>I remain sated for a longer period. Now, all I need to
>contend with is the Pavlovian drives - the tendency to head
>for the cafeteria at noon, etc.

You just said it in one. Pavlovian drives. That's
apetite, not hunger. The former is often the most
difficult to resist.

>>> Yes, most people eat because they are hungry.
>>
>>Yes, and they are only hungry when they need food--not all
>>the time.
>
>Other way around. People need food when they feel hungry.
>While physically filling the stomach will release peptide
>hormones that cause satiety, lowered glucose levels will
>produce hunger (recent studies on hypothalmus hunger
>indicates that the test rats were eating because they were
>getting fat, not the other way around)

If you eat less than you need until the next meal, then you
will feel sated for a little less than that intermeal
timespan. You won't feel hungry during the whole period.
Most folk never experience hunger, it is appetite that they
have a monumental struggle with
 
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:34:49 GMT, Robert Klute
<[email protected]> posted:

>On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:33:09 +0200, Mxsmanic
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Robert Klute writes:
>>
>>> If you are on a reduced calorie diet that does not sate
>>> you, you are hungry all the time.
>>
>>No, you're not. If the calorie deficit is small, you won't
>>be hungry.
>
>Well, thank you for correcting that misconception I had.
>Apparently it wasn't hunger I was feeling. Good to know.
>Now all I have to do is figure out what that 'pit in the
>esophagus' feeling really was.

It was a psychosomatic reaction to your not getting your
appetite sated. Or it is reflux :)
 
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:27:29 +0800, "Moosh:)" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:12:19 GMT, Robert Klute
><[email protected]> posted:
>
>>On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:41:13 +0800, "Moosh:)"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:40:21 GMT, Robert Klute
>>><[email protected]> posted:
>>>
>>>>They can feel full longer with fewer overall calories
>>>>consumed and thus have a better chance of not
>>>>'cheating'.
>>>
>>>Yep. Spuds in the diet. Wholefoods take much longer to
>>>digest and to leave the stomach.
>>
>>Potatoes have a high glycemic index.
>
>Yep, higher than table sugar. But if you eat them in a very
>mixed diet, this high GI is levelled out.
>

From an interview with Walter Willett, MD. Professor
of epidemiology and nutrition at Harvard School of
Public Health.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/diet/intervie-
ws/willett.html

Q: Traditionally people think of carbohydrates as made up
of simple sugars and complex starches. What's wrong
about that?

R: Right. The thinking in nutrition about carbohydrates
really had broken them down into two classes: sugars and
so-called complex carbohydrates, which are mostly
starches. ... The idea has been pushed that all forms of
so-called complex carbohydrates are really the poster
child of nutrients, and we should be eating them in
large amounts. That's what the pyramid tells us to do.
But in fact, these kinds of starches -- white bread,
white rice, potatoes -- are starches that are very
rapidly converted to glucose, really pure sugar, and
almost instantly absorbed into the bloodstream. And
these are the kinds of carbohydrates that we really
should be minimizing in our diets.

S: A sugar rush from a potato?

T: Actually, careful studies have shown, demonstrated that
you get a bigger rise in blood sugar after eating
potatoes, a baked potato, say, than you do from eating
pure table sugar.

U: That seems pretty extreme. Why is that?

V: ... There are several problems with these rapid rises in
blood glucose after you ingest large amounts of a rapidly
digested form of carbohydrate. First of all, when the
blood sugar goes skyrocketing up, the body wants to bring
it back down. So our pancreas pumps out a big blast of
insulin, and as a result, the blood sugar comes crashing
down rapidly. In fact, in many people, after three and
four hours, it overshoots and actually become a little
hypoglycemic, and that rapid crashing down of blood
glucose and insulin stimulates hunger. That would be no
problem, except that it's often all too easy to go in the
refrigerator or find a snack, and if we do that
frequently throughout the day, that can add up to too
many calories over weeks and months and years, and
contribute to obesity.

Second, these high rises in blood glucose and insulin have a
bad metabolic effect on the blood cholesterol fractions.
Specifically the HDL, the good cholesterol, is driven down,
and triglycerides, another type of fat in the blood that
leads to heart attacks, goes up.

Third, after many years of demand for high amounts of
insulin, the pancreas tends to give out. And at that point
in time, we've got type 2 diabetes.

W: [What is the role of insulin?]

X: The role of insulin is to transport glucose from the
blood into the cells, like into muscle or into fat cells.

Y: What can go wrong with this system?

Z: Well, the problem really comes about when we develop
insulin resistance. And that means that the cells, like
the muscle cells, become more resistant to the action of
insulin transporting the glucose inside the cell. And we
can become insulin-resistant in several different ways.
There's some genetic component, and as it turns our, for
example, many Asians tend to have more insulin
resistance. Also if we have overweight or low levels of
physical activity, we'll be more insulin resistant.

Z: Many people argue the virtues of Asian diets, with a lot
of white rice.

Z: Right. The Asian diet as it's traditionally been used
raises some very interesting issues in nutrition, in
fact, some of the most important findings during the last
several years. What we've come to realize is that if we
have a higher degree of insulin resistance, then we much
less well tolerate a high-carbohydrate diet.

Interestingly, in traditional Asian societies, people were
very lean, very active, and therefore had low insulin
resistance. They could eat large amounts of rice, even white
rice, in the diet and have low heart attack rates and have
low rates of type 2 diabetes. But if you take that same
person, and they [now] may be living in Beijing and driving
a car and watching a television, and they put on a few
pounds, they're going to have much more insulin resistance.
So if you take that same diet, high in carbohydrate and
white rice, they will have a much worse metabolic response
and much higher rates of type 2 diabetes.

Z: If you're American and overweight, won't you be put on a
low-fat diet?

Z: If you're overweight and living in the United States, and
you go to a hospital and see a dietician, almost for
sure, you're going to be put on a low-fat, high-
carbohydrate diet.

Z: What's your view of that?

Z: The problem is that that's really the wrong diet for an
overweight person. Because the person is overweight, in
general they're going to have quite a bit more insulin
resistance and much less well able to tolerate low-fat,
high-carbohydrate diet
 
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:18:02 GMT, Robert Klute
<[email protected]> posted:

>On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:27:29 +0800, "Moosh:)"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:12:19 GMT, Robert Klute
>><[email protected]> posted:
>>
>>>On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:41:13 +0800, "Moosh:)"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:40:21 GMT, Robert Klute
>>>><[email protected]> posted:
>>>>
>>>>>They can feel full longer with fewer overall calories
>>>>>consumed and thus have a better chance of not
>>>>>'cheating'.
>>>>
>>>>Yep. Spuds in the diet. Wholefoods take much longer to
>>>>digest and to leave the stomach.
>>>
>>>Potatoes have a high glycemic index.
>>
>>Yep, higher than table sugar. But if you eat them in a
>>very mixed diet, this high GI is levelled out.
>>
>
>From an interview with Walter Willett, MD. Professor
>of epidemiology and nutrition at Harvard School of
>Public Health.
>
>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/diet/intervi-
>ews/willett.html
>
>Q: Traditionally people think of carbohydrates as made up
> of simple sugars and complex starches. What's wrong
> about that?
>
>W: Right. The thinking in nutrition about carbohydrates
> really had broken them down into two classes: sugars and
> so-called complex carbohydrates, which are mostly
> starches. ... The idea has been pushed that all forms of
> so-called complex carbohydrates are really the poster
> child of nutrients, and we should be eating them in
> large amounts. That's what the pyramid tells us to do.
> But in fact, these kinds of starches -- white bread,
> white rice, potatoes -- are starches that are very
> rapidly converted to glucose, really pure sugar, and
> almost instantly absorbed into the bloodstream. And
> these are the kinds of carbohydrates that we really
> should be minimizing in our diets.
>
>
>Q: A sugar rush from a potato?
>
>W: Actually, careful studies have shown, demonstrated that
> you get a bigger rise in blood sugar after eating
> potatoes, a baked potato, say, than you do from eating
> pure table sugar.
>
>
>Q: That seems pretty extreme. Why is that?
>
>W: ... There are several problems with these rapid rises in
> blood glucose after you ingest large amounts of a
> rapidly digested form of carbohydrate. First of all,
> when the blood sugar goes skyrocketing up, the body
> wants to bring it back down. So our pancreas pumps out a
> big blast of insulin, and as a result, the blood sugar
> comes crashing down rapidly. In fact, in many people,
> after three and four hours, it overshoots and actually
> become a little hypoglycemic, and that rapid crashing
> down of blood glucose and insulin stimulates hunger.
> That would be no problem, except that it's often all too
> easy to go in the refrigerator or find a snack, and if
> we do that frequently throughout the day, that can add
> up to too many calories over weeks and months and years,
> and contribute to obesity.
>
>Second, these high rises in blood glucose and insulin have
>a bad metabolic effect on the blood cholesterol fractions.
>Specifically the HDL, the good cholesterol, is driven down,
>and triglycerides, another type of fat in the blood that
>leads to heart attacks, goes up.
>
>Third, after many years of demand for high amounts of
>insulin, the pancreas tends to give out. And at that point
>in time, we've got type 2 diabetes.
>
>
>Q: [What is the role of insulin?]
>
>W: The role of insulin is to transport glucose from the
> blood into the cells, like into muscle or into fat
> cells.
>
>
>Q: What can go wrong with this system?
>
>W: Well, the problem really comes about when we develop
> insulin resistance. And that means that the cells, like
> the muscle cells, become more resistant to the action of
> insulin transporting the glucose inside the cell. And we
> can become insulin-resistant in several different ways.
> There's some genetic component, and as it turns our, for
> example, many Asians tend to have more insulin
> resistance. Also if we have overweight or low levels of
> physical activity, we'll be more insulin resistant.
>
>
>Q: Many people argue the virtues of Asian diets, with a lot
> of white rice.
>
>W: Right. The Asian diet as it's traditionally been used
> raises some very interesting issues in nutrition, in
> fact, some of the most important findings during the
> last several years. What we've come to realize is that
> if we have a higher degree of insulin resistance, then
> we much less well tolerate a high-carbohydrate diet.
>
>Interestingly, in traditional Asian societies, people were
>very lean, very active, and therefore had low insulin
>resistance. They could eat large amounts of rice, even
>white rice, in the diet and have low heart attack rates and
>have low rates of type 2 diabetes. But if you take that
>same person, and they [now] may be living in Beijing and
>driving a car and watching a television, and they put on a
>few pounds, they're going to have much more insulin
>resistance. So if you take that same diet, high in
>carbohydrate and white rice, they will have a much worse
>metabolic response and much higher rates of type 2
>diabetes.
>
>
>Q: If you're American and overweight, won't you be put on a
> low-fat diet?
>
>W: If you're overweight and living in the United States,
> and you go to a hospital and see a dietician, almost for
> sure, you're going to be put on a low-fat, high-
> carbohydrate diet.
>
>
>Q: What's your view of that?
>
>W: The problem is that that's really the wrong diet for an
> overweight person. Because the person is overweight, in
> general they're going to have quite a bit more insulin
> resistance and much less well able to tolerate low-fat,
> high-carbohydrate diet

They may, or they may not. Important to find out. If they
are overweight and "pre-diabetic" they should restrict
carbs. If they are just overweight they should restrict
calories. How they do that with the proviso that they eat a
balanced diet, is not what I'm discussing.