questions/advice for a "sort of TI newbie"



T

Thinno

Guest
Hello,

I've been lurking here (and on other swimming sites/groups etc) for about a year and have 2
questions. I'm not quite sure if I'm asking in the right place but figure this is the best place to
start. Apologies if this is rather longwinded and a bit moany in places!

First some background - I'm 31, based in London, and have been swimming for about 4 years. I'm 6 ft
tall (~1.83m) and weigh around 10 stone (~140 pounds or about 63kg); clearly I'm very skinny! I
started swimming after injuring my lower back whilst playing squash. My back injury, apparently,
isn't something that will heal or can be fixed by surgery etc. (and for the purposes of this
message, please assume this to be the case!) Apart from walking, the injury stops me participating
in all other sports except swimming. I should probably be honest and state that I've never been a
fan of swimming but I need to do something to stay reasonably fit and now have little choice!
Anyway, I started swimming regularly - 3 or 4 times a week for an hour each time
- about 4 years ago. For about 3 years I swam with little or no real thought about technique or
sets, I worked my way up to 30 freestyle lengths, then 40, 50 etc. I was never fast - could maybe
manage 1500m with a cruise pace of 3mins per 100m (I know that's embarrassingly slow). OK! Enough
background!

About 1 year ago, I stopped swimming for 3 months (to see if my back would improve without swimming
- it didn't), and during this time away from the pool I discovered that "swimming is a technique
sport" etc etc. I bought a couple of TI-books and videos and became totally convinced that I would
really improve if I learnt some technique. So when I went back to swimming, about 1 year ago, I
completely threw away my old, self-taught, style (as recommended - never swam a single stroke that
way since) and started using TI drills and methods. I suppose I followed (and still do) a cross
between the programmes in the original Total Immersion and Fitness Swimming books.

My concerns are that I'm improving (if I'm improving at all) really slowly. From what I've read on
the Internet, this can be a common whinge from new TI swimmers - but most of these posts state that
they've only been at it a month or so. Hardly giving it a fair chance! My current swimming ability
is to swim a 25m length in about 40 seconds, using 17 strokes. I use what I understand to be called
the 2 beat kick, ie kicking only to initiate body rotation. I breate bilaterally, every 3rd stroke.
I can't do more than maybe 2 lengths without stopping for a rest. Not exactly where I hoped to be,
and I'm still someone who doesn't like swimming!

So what are the questions?! I hear you ask...

1) Has anyone been through something similar and felt the same, and eventually improved? I could
really use some encouragement! I don't really have any ambition to compete but just want to feel
that my efforts have been rewarded. I thought I'd be gliding up and down the pool by now at
something like 2mins per 100m - not all that ambitious is it? Actually I do want to compete - I'd
like to be faster than the old ladies who keep catching me up in the slow lane.

2) Is it my build that makes it very tricky for me to swim the TI way? I frequently roll to breathe
(either drilling or swimming) only to find myself still underwater. If I'm lucky I remember not
to breathe in when this happens. I still swallow loads of water during every session.

If I should stop moaning and keep practising, please just say so! I'm certainly not trying to
criticise the methods that I'm trying to learn or the books/materials that I've used. Clearly it
works for other people so I'm either incapable of following simple instructions or I'm just a really
rubbish swimmer or perhaps I'm being impatient!

Thanks if you managed to read this far....! Any comments/advice welcome.

AJ
 
On 27 Jan 2004 07:56:10 -0800,
[email protected] (Thinno) wrote:

>First some background - I'm 31, based in London, and have been swimming for about 4 years. I'm 6 ft
>tall (~1.83m) and weigh around 10 stone (~140 pounds or about 63kg); clearly I'm very skinny!

And not very buoyant.

>My current swimming ability is to swim a 25m length in about 40 seconds, using 17 strokes. I use
>what I understand to be called the 2 beat kick, ie kicking only to initiate body rotation. I breate
>bilaterally, every 3rd stroke.

Have you always breathed bilaterally?

>I can't do more than maybe 2 lengths without stopping for a rest.

What needs rest, your lungs or your arms?

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
 
TI has been thoroughly discredited. You are ruining yourself.

Don

"Thinno" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking here (and on other swimming sites/groups etc) for about a year and have 2
> questions. I'm not quite sure if I'm asking in the right place but figure this is the best place
> to start. Apologies if this is rather longwinded and a bit moany in places!
>
> First some background - I'm 31, based in London, and have been swimming for about 4 years. I'm 6
> ft tall (~1.83m) and weigh around 10 stone (~140 pounds or about 63kg); clearly I'm very skinny! I
> started swimming after injuring my lower back whilst playing squash. My back injury, apparently,
> isn't something that will heal or can be fixed by surgery etc. (and for the purposes of this
> message, please assume this to be the case!) Apart from walking, the injury stops me participating
> in all other sports except swimming. I should probably be honest and state that I've never been a
> fan of swimming but I need to do something to stay reasonably fit and now have little choice!
> Anyway, I started swimming regularly - 3 or 4 times a week for an hour each time
> - about 4 years ago. For about 3 years I swam with little or no real thought about technique or
> sets, I worked my way up to 30 freestyle lengths, then 40, 50 etc. I was never fast - could
> maybe manage 1500m with a cruise pace of 3mins per 100m (I know that's embarrassingly slow). OK!
> Enough background!
>
> About 1 year ago, I stopped swimming for 3 months (to see if my back would improve without
> swimming - it didn't), and during this time away from the pool I discovered that "swimming is a
> technique sport" etc etc. I bought a couple of TI-books and videos and became totally convinced
> that I would really improve if I learnt some technique. So when I went back to swimming, about 1
> year ago, I completely threw away my old, self-taught, style (as recommended - never swam a single
> stroke that way since) and started using TI drills and methods. I suppose I followed (and still
> do) a cross between the programmes in the original Total Immersion and Fitness Swimming books.
>
> My concerns are that I'm improving (if I'm improving at all) really slowly. From what I've read on
> the Internet, this can be a common whinge from new TI swimmers - but most of these posts state
> that they've only been at it a month or so. Hardly giving it a fair chance! My current swimming
> ability is to swim a 25m length in about 40 seconds, using 17 strokes. I use what I understand to
> be called the 2 beat kick, ie kicking only to initiate body rotation. I breate bilaterally, every
> 3rd stroke. I can't do more than maybe 2 lengths without stopping for a rest. Not exactly where I
> hoped to be, and I'm still someone who doesn't like swimming!
>
> So what are the questions?! I hear you ask...
>
> 1) Has anyone been through something similar and felt the same, and eventually improved? I could
> really use some encouragement! I don't really have any ambition to compete but just want to
> feel that my efforts have been rewarded. I thought I'd be gliding up and down the pool by now
> at something like 2mins per 100m - not all that ambitious is it? Actually I do want to compete
> - I'd like to be faster than the old ladies who keep catching me up in the slow lane.
>
> 2) Is it my build that makes it very tricky for me to swim the TI way? I frequently roll to
> breathe (either drilling or swimming) only to find myself still underwater. If I'm lucky I
> remember not to breathe in when this happens. I still swallow loads of water during every
> session.
>
> If I should stop moaning and keep practising, please just say so! I'm certainly not trying to
> criticise the methods that I'm trying to learn or the books/materials that I've used. Clearly it
> works for other people so I'm either incapable of following simple instructions or I'm just a
> really rubbish swimmer or perhaps I'm being impatient!
>
> Thanks if you managed to read this far....! Any comments/advice welcome.
>
> AJ
 
Hi - thanks a lot for the reply.

> Have you always breathed bilaterally?

Yes, always. I don't really have a preferred side.

> What needs rest, your lungs or your arms?

Definitely the lungs. If there's one thing that I do seem to "get" about swimming the TI way is
using body roll to power the stroke. So my arms don't tire. Breathing is a bit hit and miss for me;
sometimes I get a perfect lungful, other times not so much, and sometimes I just don't surface. I
don't get enough air, for sure.

I do try swimming some lengths by breathing on one side only but I find this plays havoc with my
swimming form. Too much to think about - and I lose balance/control fairly quickly which as I
understand is to be avoided at all costs. I'm doing my best to "practice good form" and I find this
easier when breathing bilaterally.

AJ
 
AJ, just wondering---how is your exhalation? Don't overlook that part of your breathing; it's
important! The CO2 builds up in your bloodstream and can cause you to feel tired. Are you holding
your breath when you are not trying to take in Oxygen?

Pat in TX
 
> "Thinno" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> SNIP < Your current times don't sound too bad to me, given the background. Stop
worrying and keep swimming lots. Stamina will come with the more you do, but don't be too wedded to
bilateral breathing. If you can't get enough air, just breath one sided every stroke and get 33%
more air in! Swimming is a sport in which improvement comes very slowly and this can discourage some
people. To be frank, someone starting at your age is unlikely to get as good as people who have been
at it since childhood, but why worry how 'good' you are. If you enjoy it and it keeps you fit surely
that's what you want from it. Why not join a masters swimming club? You'll get more pool time in
good lane conditions, meet like minded people, maybe get some coaching or advice if you want it, but
you won't be pressured. There is competition available if you want it, but don't feel you have to,
most masters swimmers don't compete. And don't be put off by the name - it's not elitist and not
everyone is good. With your times you'd be OK, especially if you go with the attitude that you want
to learn and improve. If you've got a bad back (or bad knees), don't be tempted in to breast stroke
though. It's bad for backs and knees (and butterfly isn't much better), but front and back crawl are
fine and should help keep it mobile. And don't be put off by the comments of Donald Gaft on this
newsgroup - he's just a troll, and doesn't seem to know much about swimming either. Best wishes, and
keep swimming. Duncan
 
On 28 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0800,
[email protected] (Thinno) wrote:

>I don't get enough air, for sure.

L1 breath R2 L3 R4 breath L5 R6 L7 breath R8 L9 R10 breath L11 R12 L13 breath R14 L15 R16 breath L17

So before you may have been breathing eight or nine times a length, or even more. Now, in 17 strokes
you breathe only six times a length, if all goes well. And since you can only do a few lengths, you
aren't improving your lungpower.

I had the same problem in breaststroke when I started streamlining more and kicking better. My
stroke count dropped and I became faster, but I breathed much less often and found the longer swims
challenging.

I gather you are looking primarily for fitness. Have you thought about doing backstroke, too? I
hated backstroke most of my life, but having paid attention to horizontal alignment, I find it to be
just as good a workout as crawl and breathing is hardly the issue it is in crawl.

When I've been away from the pool, I use backstroke to get the distance part of my routine then
gradually lengthen my crawl swims.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
 
AJ,

This may sound a bit daft but try thinking about exhaling more than inhaling. If your mind is
thinking that you're not able to breath enough then you may not be exhaling fully, leaving your
lungs too full of stale air to be able to fit in enough fresh, new air. Opinions seem to differ as
to whether you should breath out continually throughout your non-breathing strokes or exhale mostly
during the last stroke before a breath, so try both and see how they feel.

Another problem that can cause a lack of air is being too tense. Make sure you're nice and relaxed
and taking enough time to get a good breath in.

Hope that helps.

AD.

[email protected] (Thinno) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking here (and on other swimming sites/groups etc) for about a year and have 2
> questions. I'm not quite sure if I'm asking in the right place but figure this is the best place
> to start. Apologies if this is rather longwinded and a bit moany in places!
>
> First some background - I'm 31, based in London, and have been swimming for about 4 years. I'm 6
> ft tall (~1.83m) and weigh around 10 stone (~140 pounds or about 63kg); clearly I'm very skinny! I
> started swimming after injuring my lower back whilst playing squash. My back injury, apparently,
> isn't something that will heal or can be fixed by surgery etc. (and for the purposes of this
> message, please assume this to be the case!) Apart from walking, the injury stops me participating
> in all other sports except swimming. I should probably be honest and state that I've never been a
> fan of swimming but I need to do something to stay reasonably fit and now have little choice!
> Anyway, I started swimming regularly - 3 or 4 times a week for an hour each time
> - about 4 years ago. For about 3 years I swam with little or no real thought about technique or
> sets, I worked my way up to 30 freestyle lengths, then 40, 50 etc. I was never fast - could
> maybe manage 1500m with a cruise pace of 3mins per 100m (I know that's embarrassingly slow). OK!
> Enough background!
>
> About 1 year ago, I stopped swimming for 3 months (to see if my back would improve without
> swimming - it didn't), and during this time away from the pool I discovered that "swimming is a
> technique sport" etc etc. I bought a couple of TI-books and videos and became totally convinced
> that I would really improve if I learnt some technique. So when I went back to swimming, about 1
> year ago, I completely threw away my old, self-taught, style (as recommended - never swam a single
> stroke that way since) and started using TI drills and methods. I suppose I followed (and still
> do) a cross between the programmes in the original Total Immersion and Fitness Swimming books.
>
> My concerns are that I'm improving (if I'm improving at all) really slowly. From what I've read on
> the Internet, this can be a common whinge from new TI swimmers - but most of these posts state
> that they've only been at it a month or so. Hardly giving it a fair chance! My current swimming
> ability is to swim a 25m length in about 40 seconds, using 17 strokes. I use what I understand to
> be called the 2 beat kick, ie kicking only to initiate body rotation. I breate bilaterally, every
> 3rd stroke. I can't do more than maybe 2 lengths without stopping for a rest. Not exactly where I
> hoped to be, and I'm still someone who doesn't like swimming!
>
> So what are the questions?! I hear you ask...
>
> 1) Has anyone been through something similar and felt the same, and eventually improved? I could
> really use some encouragement! I don't really have any ambition to compete but just want to
> feel that my efforts have been rewarded. I thought I'd be gliding up and down the pool by now
> at something like 2mins per 100m - not all that ambitious is it? Actually I do want to compete
> - I'd like to be faster than the old ladies who keep catching me up in the slow lane.
>
> 2) Is it my build that makes it very tricky for me to swim the TI way? I frequently roll to
> breathe (either drilling or swimming) only to find myself still underwater. If I'm lucky I
> remember not to breathe in when this happens. I still swallow loads of water during every
> session.
>
> If I should stop moaning and keep practising, please just say so! I'm certainly not trying to
> criticise the methods that I'm trying to learn or the books/materials that I've used. Clearly it
> works for other people so I'm either incapable of following simple instructions or I'm just a
> really rubbish swimmer or perhaps I'm being impatient!
>
> Thanks if you managed to read this far....! Any comments/advice welcome.
>
> AJ
 
Thanks a lot (everyone) for the replies.

I will keep trying to improve my freestyle for a while longer. If I can improve a bit I might
consider joining a masters group. I'd be too embarrassed at the moment...!

I did a "T15" swim the other day just to see how far I could go - haven't tried in a while and my
previous attempts were always aborted because I had to stop for too long between each length, so the
figures were meaningless. Anyway, Given that it takes me about 40s to swim a 25m length, after which
I need a rest, I hoped to complete 15 lengths in 15 minutes (40s swim plus 20s rest = 1min per
length). To my surprise, I did 17, without sacrificing much form (17 strokes per length, about
normal for me) - or swallowing too much water! I will do a monthly T15 from now on and see if I
improve...

Adrian, I will try breathing out further on a few lengths and see how it goes. I must admit I don't
do this because 1) I'm not very buoyant when I fully exhale and 2) if I miss the breath completely -
which is more likely when I fully exhale - I get really short of air! but I will try it!

Thanks again,

AJ

[email protected] (adrian) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> AJ,
>
> This may sound a bit daft but try thinking about exhaling more than inhaling. If your mind is
> thinking that you're not able to breath enough then you may not be exhaling fully, leaving your
> lungs too full of stale air to be able to fit in enough fresh, new air. Opinions seem to differ as
> to whether you should breath out continually throughout your non-breathing strokes or exhale
> mostly during the last stroke before a breath, so try both and see how they feel.
>
> Another problem that can cause a lack of air is being too tense. Make sure you're nice and relaxed
> and taking enough time to get a good breath in.
>
> Hope that helps.
 
AJ,

[email protected] (Thinno) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> Adrian, I will try breathing out further on a few lengths and see how it goes. I must admit I
> don't do this because 1) I'm not very buoyant when I fully exhale

In that case you might be more comfortable with the idea of exhaling forcibly only on the stroke
just before the inhale.

Another idea might be to try swimming with a "pull buoy" - one of those foam float things that you
put between your legs. That might give you sufficient buoyancy to allow you to be able to relax
and take enough time to breath. Your oxygen requirements will be less too because you're not using
your legs.

Lastly, maybe you can find a friendly swimmer who can take a look at you and see if there's anything
in particlar that you're doing that is making it hard to breath.

Good Luck,

AD.
 
> Another idea might be to try swimming with a "pull buoy" - one of those foam float things that you
> put between your legs. That might give you sufficient buoyancy to allow you to be able to relax
> and take enough time to breath. Your oxygen requirements will be less too because you're not using
> your legs.

Thanks Adrian, I'll give it a go.... are pull buoys not frowned upon though?! ;-)

AJ
 
In article <437f8797.0402020835[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Another idea might be to try swimming with a "pull buoy" - one of those foam float things that
> > you put between your legs. That might give you sufficient buoyancy to allow you to be able to
> > relax and take enough time to breath. Your oxygen requirements will be less too because you're
> > not using your legs.
>
> Thanks Adrian, I'll give it a go.... are pull buoys not frowned upon though?! ;-)

Not sure if they are from a TI standpoint, but they certainly enjoy buy- in from the competitive
swimming community at large. What's more, they're the only chance us "kickless types" have to lead
the circle on occassion :)

- Al
 
Al wrote:

> In article <437f8797.0402020835[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>>>Another idea might be to try swimming with a "pull buoy" - one of those foam float things that
>>>you put between your legs. That might give you sufficient buoyancy to allow you to be able to
>>>relax and take enough time to breath. Your oxygen requirements will be less too because you're
>>>not using your legs.
>>
>>Thanks Adrian, I'll give it a go.... are pull buoys not frowned upon though?! ;-)
>
>
> Not sure if they are from a TI standpoint, but they certainly enjoy buy- in from the competitive
> swimming community at large. What's more, they're the only chance us "kickless types" have to lead
> the circle on occassion :)
>
> - Al

I think a general rule might be that if a *toy* makes life more difficult for you, it's probably a
good thing. I'm very slowed down by a pull buoy as are many swimmers who are better than I've ever
been; therefore it is a challenge for me to use it and so I do. If it makes swimming easier, you can
be pretty sure it's counter productive to use it. Unquestionably, it slows down your heart rate not
to use your oxygen hungry big quads and for that reason alone it is not in the best interest of
anyone who is in the pool to improve *fitness* as defined by levels of vo2.

rtk
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>
> Al wrote:
>
> > In article <437f8797.0402020835[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >
> >>>Another idea might be to try swimming with a "pull buoy" - one of those foam float things that
> >>>you put between your legs. That might give you sufficient buoyancy to allow you to be able to
> >>>relax and take enough time to breath. Your oxygen requirements will be less too because you're
> >>>not using your legs.
> >>
> >>Thanks Adrian, I'll give it a go.... are pull buoys not frowned upon though?! ;-)
> >
> >
> > Not sure if they are from a TI standpoint, but they certainly enjoy buy- in from the competitive
> > swimming community at large. What's more, they're the only chance us "kickless types" have to
> > lead the circle on occassion :)
> >
> > - Al
>
> I think a general rule might be that if a *toy* makes life more difficult for you, it's probably a
> good thing. I'm very slowed down by a pull buoy as are many swimmers who are better than I've ever
> been; therefore it is a challenge for me to use it and so I do. If it makes swimming easier, you
> can be pretty sure it's counter productive to use it.

I might agree in *very* broad terms here, but I don't think this necessarily applies for a pull-buoy
(which for me is a technique tool, not a conditioning tool for anything except breastroke.) Zoomers
would be another possible exception to this idea too, although I'll leave it to a zoomer advocate to
comment on this.

> Unquestionably, it slows down your heart rate not to use your oxygen hungry big quads and for that
> reason alone it is not in the best interest of anyone who is in the pool to improve *fitness* as
> defined by levels of vo2.

Given the vo2 caveat, I agree.

- Al
 
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:30:10 -0600, Al
<[email protected]> wrote:

ruth kazez put it thusly:

>>>>
I think a general rule might be that if a *toy* makes life more difficult for you, it's probably a
good thing. I'm very slowed down by a pull buoy as are many swimmers who are better than I've ever
been; therefore it is a challenge for me to use it and so I do. If it makes swimming easier, you can
be pretty sure it's counter productive to use it.
>>>>

>I might agree in *very* broad terms here, but I don't think this necessarily applies for a pull-
>buoy (which for me is a technique tool, not a conditioning tool for anything except breastroke.)

How does a pull buoy help your technique? I can't imagine how pull-buoys will make your legs ride
higher when you take them off. Cecil Colwin used to have his team practice with weight belts, almost
the opposite of using floats.

>Zoomers would be another possible exception to this idea too, although I'll leave it to a zoomer
>advocate to comment on this.

A lot of folks seem to use paddles and fins simply to practice faster, but I think the idea behind
fins is that they stretch out your ankles so you can be more propulsive when swimming without them.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
 
Al wrote:

> I might agree in *very* broad terms here, but I don't think this necessarily applies for a pull-
> buoy (which for me is a technique tool, not a conditioning tool for anything except breastroke.)
> Zoomers would be another possible exception to this idea too, although I'll leave it to a zoomer
> advocate to comment on this.

For me, too, the pull-buoy is for technique. But the Zoomers (ahhh!) I don't need and I can't
resist. The little blue ones are charms.

rtk
 
Donal Fagan wrote:

>
> How does a pull buoy help your technique? I can't imagine how pull-buoys will make your legs ride
> higher when you take them off. Cecil Colwin used to have his team practice with weight belts,
> almost the opposite of using floats.

Without a kick, I snake like mad. The pull-buoy makes me more aware of my persistent tendency to
swim flat. I think weight belts have to be an efficient way to increase strength, but way too
punishing for someone like me who hopes to find pleasure in swimming more than anything else.

rtk
 
In article <sudt105aog2rg[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:30:10 -0600, Al <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ruth kazez put it thusly:
>
> >>>>
> I think a general rule might be that if a *toy* makes life more difficult for you, it's probably a
> good thing. I'm very slowed down by a pull buoy as are many swimmers who are better than I've ever
> been; therefore it is a challenge for me to use it and so I do. If it makes swimming easier, you
> can be pretty sure it's counter productive to use it.
> >>>>
>
> >I might agree in *very* broad terms here, but I don't think this necessarily applies for a pull-
> >buoy (which for me is a technique tool, not a conditioning tool for anything except breastroke.)
>
> How does a pull buoy help your technique? I can't imagine how pull-buoys will make your legs ride
> higher when you take them off. Cecil Colwin used to have his team practice with weight belts,
> almost the opposite of using floats.

I find that I get more pronounced feedback on pull corrections/tweaking when I take my legs out of
the equation (and more exaggerated yet with paddles - but they scare my shoulders these days.)
Granted, my pull is going to change somewhat anyway once I have my legs back, but at least in my
case, the fixes I am more readily able to identify with the pull- buoy do tend to translate to
improvements with kicking as well (acknowledging the placebo potential :).)

> >Zoomers would be another possible exception to this idea too, although I'll leave it to a zoomer
> >advocate to comment on this.
>
> A lot of folks seem to use paddles and fins simply to practice faster, but I think the idea
> behind fins is that they stretch out your ankles so you can be more propulsive when swimming
> without them.

Practicing faster is a hidden motive of my own (at least for some sets) with the pull buoy. That
gives you an idea of just how tragic my kick tends to be :).

- Al
> Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
 
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