Quick Release for Cantilevers Brakes?

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>terra lutra wrote:
>> On Jan 23, 1:46 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:00:30 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Brifters [1] should be for racing/racing training only. All bicycles
>>>>> used for more practical purposes should have bar-end or down-tube
>>>>> shifters with an optional friction mode.
>>>> What about just riding for fun? What is alowed for that?
>>>> What about a fun commute in a city?
>>> >
>>> The fun stops as soon as the indexing goes off a little bit or the
>>> brifter otherwise malfunctions.
>>>
>>
>> You must have a hard time with spoons and zippers.
> >
>Actually, I was thinking about messing with other people's broken
>bicycles on various rides (I had tools and spares, they did not).
>
>A bar-end will still shift when things get knocked out of alignment. A
>broken brifter will not do a damn thing.

Ummm, why are you comparing a broken intergrated shifter with
misalignment of some bike part?

Let's do apples to apples -- intergrated shifters can shift when
things get knocked out of alignment. Not well, but they can. I had a
downtube lever break twice (one Shimano, one Simplex) and they didn't
shift at all when broken. Is it impossible for bar-ends to break? I
don't think so.

Now it's true that downtube and bar end shifters will break less often
than integreated shifters. But how often to integrated shifters break
at all?

And it's true that shifters with a friction option will work better
than index-only shifters when, say, the deraileur is smashed sideways.
But even index only shifters will let you get home in such a case.

What kinds of rides are you doing that have this happening? If it's
mountain bike rides I can understand it, but if people are breaking
stuff that much on road rides they've got far bigger problems than
shifting reliablity. Sounds like they are crashing too much or their
bikes are mis-assembled in the first place.

Franly it sounds like a bunch of FUD from you about why to use bar
ends or twist shifter.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Brifters seem particularly prone to problems in freezing weather.

You're going group rides in freezing weather with other people and
they're losing the ability to shift and asking you to fix it?
Interesting.

 

[Tom Sherman]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:02:59 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:46:15 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:00:30 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brifters [1] should be for racing/racing training only. All bicycles
>>>>>> used for more practical purposes should have bar-end or down-tube
>>>>>> shifters with an optional friction mode.
>>>>> What about just riding for fun? What is alowed for that?
>>>>>
>>>>> What about a fun commute in a city?
>>>>>
>>>> The fun stops as soon as the indexing goes off a little bit or the
>>>> brifter otherwise malfunctions.
>>> That doesn't happen often at all.
>>>
>>> I have to laugh at th tech-grouches who care so much for "reliability"
>>> that they ride around with worse stuff all the time. I'll take one
>>> day every couple of years out of adjustment for 200 days of fun and
>>> better performance. But then when I bike commuted it wasn't some sort
>>> of outback adventure when a little chain rub would result in death or
>>> losses of vast sums of money being helicoptered out of the woods....
>>>
>> Well, I can shift my bar-ends and my twist-grips without moving my hands
>>from the braking position. What could be better than that?
>
> Being able to shift from the tops and the drops.
>
But those positions are not particularly comfortable.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Brifters seem particularly prone to problems in freezing weather.
>
> You're going group rides in freezing weather with other people and
> they're losing the ability to shift and asking you to fix it?
> Interesting.
>
Hey, it has happened. I usually have more spares and tools than other
people - hey, that is why my bike bag weighs so much!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:01:23 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> terra lutra wrote:
>>> On Jan 23, 1:46 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:00:30 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Brifters [1] should be for racing/racing training only. All bicycles
>>>>>> used for more practical purposes should have bar-end or down-tube
>>>>>> shifters with an optional friction mode.
>>>>> What about just riding for fun? What is alowed for that?
>>>>> What about a fun commute in a city?
>>>> >
>>>> The fun stops as soon as the indexing goes off a little bit or the
>>>> brifter otherwise malfunctions.
>>>>
>>> You must have a hard time with spoons and zippers.
>>>
>> Actually, I was thinking about messing with other people's broken
>> bicycles on various rides (I had tools and spares, they did not).
>>
>> A bar-end will still shift when things get knocked out of alignment. A
>> broken brifter will not do a damn thing.
>
> Ummm, why are you comparing a broken intergrated shifter with
> misalignment of some bike part?
>
Because I have experience (as either a user or witness) of both.

> Let's do apples to apples -- intergrated shifters can shift when
> things get knocked out of alignment. Not well, but they can. I had a
> downtube lever break twice (one Shimano, one Simplex) and they didn't
> shift at all when broken. Is it impossible for bar-ends to break? I
> don't think so.
>
I find that I can shift 9-speed cassettes fine in friction mode with a
bar-end shifter, on a recumbent with an 3 meter long, convoluted cable
run, no less.

> Now it's true that downtube and bar end shifters will break less often
> than integreated shifters. But how often to integrated shifters break
> at all?
>
Much more often than bar-ends, based on reports by others.

> And it's true that shifters with a friction option will work better
> than index-only shifters when, say, the deraileur is smashed sideways.
> But even index only shifters will let you get home in such a case.
>
> What kinds of rides are you doing that have this happening? If it's
> mountain bike rides I can understand it, but if people are breaking
> stuff that much on road rides they've got far bigger problems than
> shifting reliablity. Sounds like they are crashing too much or their
> bikes are mis-assembled in the first place.
>
Well, the stock Rabidfires (sic) on my ATB are a PITA.

> Franly it sounds like a bunch of FUD from you about why to use bar
> ends or twist shifter.
>
For BSS bars, bar-ends are the best choice, since they are easily
operated by one's thumb while ones hands are on the grips.
Twist-shifters work well on flat-bars.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:51:14 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:02:59 -0600, Tom Sherman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:46:15 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:00:30 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brifters [1] should be for racing/racing training only. All bicycles
>>>>>>> used for more practical purposes should have bar-end or down-tube
>>>>>>> shifters with an optional friction mode.
>>>>>> What about just riding for fun? What is alowed for that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about a fun commute in a city?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The fun stops as soon as the indexing goes off a little bit or the
>>>>> brifter otherwise malfunctions.
>>>> That doesn't happen often at all.
>>>>
>>>> I have to laugh at th tech-grouches who care so much for "reliability"
>>>> that they ride around with worse stuff all the time. I'll take one
>>>> day every couple of years out of adjustment for 200 days of fun and
>>>> better performance. But then when I bike commuted it wasn't some sort
>>>> of outback adventure when a little chain rub would result in death or
>>>> losses of vast sums of money being helicoptered out of the woods....
>>>>
>>> Well, I can shift my bar-ends and my twist-grips without moving my hands
>>>from the braking position. What could be better than that?
>>
>> Being able to shift from the tops and the drops.
>>
>But those positions are not particularly comfortable.

Hahaha.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:01:18 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I find that I can shift 9-speed cassettes fine in friction mode with a
>bar-end shifter, on a recumbent with an 3 meter long, convoluted cable
>run, no less.

Oh, recumbents. Lame but it all makes "sense" now.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:01:18 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Much more often than bar-ends, based on reports by others.

Twice nearly never is still nearly never.

 

[Tom Sherman]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:51:14 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:02:59 -0600, Tom Sherman
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Well, I can shift my bar-ends and my twist-grips without moving my hands
>>> >from the braking position. What could be better than that?
>>>
>>> Being able to shift from the tops and the drops.
>>>
>> But those positions are not particularly comfortable.
>
> Hahaha.
>
Hey, if you can not do it laying down, it is not worth doing!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:01:18 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Much more often than bar-ends, based on reports by others.
>
> Twice nearly never is still nearly never.
>
Why are there so many posts to rec.bicycles.tech about broken brifters then?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[A R:nen]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:

> Why are there so many posts to rec.bicycles.tech about broken brifters then?

Are there? I haven't noticed. And even if there are more posts about
broken brifters than, say, patching a tube, it doesn't mean that
brifter failure is more common than a flat tyre. It's a complex part
that is somewhat complicated to nearly impossible (guess which brand
is which) to repair, so it's hardly surprising that such questions
would be overrepresented.

Anyway, indexing schmindexing, at least in traditional Ergos, pressing
lever still translates directly to pulling the wire, so some degree of
manual fine-tuning is always possible, even if the indexing mechanism
does its best to override it (usually for the better, but sometimes for
the worse when something is broken). Case in point: earlier this month,
by accident I rode several times on rollers with a 9-speed cassette in
a 10-speed drivetrain. Sure, some gears were too noisy, but since the
specific gear doesn't matter much on rollers, I just used the more
quiet ones. I noticed it first when I switched to a trainer and
actually started needing specific gears (and even that *after* the
first session).

As for the original question, disengaging the yoke wire works just
fine for me. I don't think I have ever used the feature on the Ergo
brifters on purpose.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:31:42 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:01:18 -0600, Tom Sherman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Much more often than bar-ends, based on reports by others.
>>
>> Twice nearly never is still nearly never.
>>
>Why are there so many posts to rec.bicycles.tech about broken brifters then?

Why are there so many posts by people who exagerrate things then?

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 25 Jan 2008 12:00:45 +0200, [email protected] (A R:nen)
wrote:

>earlier this month,
>by accident I rode several times on rollers with a 9-speed cassette in
>a 10-speed drivetrain. Sure, some gears were too noisy, but since the
>specific gear doesn't matter much on rollers,

OMG I can't believe you were able to even ride. If you were
commuting, that would have been the end. You wouldn't have made it to
work, you probably would have lost your job and be homeless by now.
Not that you would ever have made it home from the outside with
unreliable stuff like that.....

What are you some kind of bike racer Lance Armstrong wannabe to use
such an unreliable product????

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 6:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2008 12:00:45 +0200, [email protected] (A R:nen)
> wrote:
>
> >earlier this month,
> >by accident I rode several times on rollers with a 9-speed cassette in
> >a 10-speed drivetrain. Sure, some gears were too noisy, but since the
> >specific gear doesn't matter much on rollers,
>
> OMG I can't believe you were able to even ride. If you were
> commuting, that would have been the end...

To be fair, that was a bit different from a true brifter failure.

I have seen brifter failures that did prevent people from riding, as
have others here. The only similar failure with the simpler
alternative shifters is a broken cable, which is visually obvious and
repairable on the road.

This doesn't mean brifters are terribly unreliable or always
unrepairable. But it can certainly justify thinking the advantages
aren't worth the potential disadvantages for certain types of riding.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[A R:nen]

[email protected] writes:

> I have seen brifter failures that did prevent people from riding, as
> have others here. The only similar failure with the simpler
> alternative shifters is a broken cable, which is visually obvious and
> repairable on the road.

The default emergency "repair" procedure is probably the same in
either case (unless you are touring and carry a spare cable): you ride
back home with the gear(s) you are stuck with (which you can tweak a bit
with the limiting screws if necessary). A few years ago, the downshift
lever breaking off certainly didn't stop me. Made a nice pendant, too.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 12:49 pm, [email protected] (A R:nen) wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
> > I have seen brifter failures that did prevent people from riding, as
> > have others here. The only similar failure with the simpler
> > alternative shifters is a broken cable, which is visually obvious and
> > repairable on the road.
>
> The default emergency "repair" procedure is probably the same in
> either case (unless you are touring and carry a spare cable): you ride
> back home with the gear(s) you are stuck with (which you can tweak a bit
> with the limiting screws if necessary). A few years ago, the downshift
> lever breaking off certainly didn't stop me. Made a nice pendant, too.

The first time I had a rear derailleur cable break at the shift lever,
I had no replacement cable. But I'd left enough extra cable length at
the derailleur clamp that I was just able to put a knot in the
remaining cable at the lever end, to take the place the cast button.
It wasn't easy to knot, but all my gears were operable, and it got me
home- and then some. I rode it that way for several days until I had
time to replace the cable.

I now leave a little more "extra" cable curled up at the derailleur
end, in case I need to repeat that trick. And yes, it eventually
happened again.

Perhaps I should start replacing cables once a year...

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:42:32 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jan 25, 12:49 pm, [email protected] (A R:nen) wrote:
>> [email protected] writes:
>> > I have seen brifter failures that did prevent people from riding, as
>> > have others here. The only similar failure with the simpler
>> > alternative shifters is a broken cable, which is visually obvious and
>> > repairable on the road.
>>
>> The default emergency "repair" procedure is probably the same in
>> either case (unless you are touring and carry a spare cable): you ride
>> back home with the gear(s) you are stuck with (which you can tweak a bit
>> with the limiting screws if necessary). A few years ago, the downshift
>> lever breaking off certainly didn't stop me. Made a nice pendant, too.
>
>The first time I had a rear derailleur cable break at the shift lever,
>I had no replacement cable. But I'd left enough extra cable length at
>the derailleur clamp that I was just able to put a knot in the
>remaining cable at the lever end, to take the place the cast button.
>It wasn't easy to knot, but all my gears were operable, and it got me
>home- and then some. I rode it that way for several days until I had
>time to replace the cable.
>
>I now leave a little more "extra" cable curled up at the derailleur
>end, in case I need to repeat that trick. And yes, it eventually
>happened again.
>
>Perhaps I should start replacing cables once a year...
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

My problem was at the other end.

About once a year, I broke my cable at the rear derailleur, where
leaving extra cable wouldn't do any good.

Being dim-witted, I felt clever for carrying a spare cable, which I
would clumsily install and lubricate with profanity.

After a few years (let's not go into how many), I finally noticed that
my rear cable clamp had a sharp right-angle edge.

After a few swipes with a file, my shift-cable clamp had a nicely
rounded exit, and my rear shift cable hasn't broken for several years.

My front shifter had a smooth, funnel-shaped exit, but yours might be
different. If your cables break at the front, a thin round file might
help smooth the exit.

I haven't any excuse for leaving my rear cable clamp unsmoothed. Back
when I was riding trials, riders usually replaced the standard heavy
steel bars with Renthal aluminum bars, which were lighter and came in
various heights. (Plus they looked cool if you got the ones with
anodized coloring.)

The first thing you did was to take a round file and "radius" the
handlebar clamps, meaning that you rounded the clamp's sharp
right-angle edges into a tiny funnel shape, about as much as you'd
trim off your thumbnail with fingernail clippers.

Otherwise, the Renthals tended to break at the clamp within a season
because all the stress was concentrated right at the sharp edge of the
clamp instead of spread out a little over the bend of the funnel.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:19:37 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jan 25, 6:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On 25 Jan 2008 12:00:45 +0200, [email protected] (A R:nen)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >earlier this month,
>> >by accident I rode several times on rollers with a 9-speed cassette in
>> >a 10-speed drivetrain. Sure, some gears were too noisy, but since the
>> >specific gear doesn't matter much on rollers,
>>
>> OMG I can't believe you were able to even ride. If you were
>> commuting, that would have been the end...
>
>To be fair, that was a bit different from a true brifter failure.
>
>I have seen brifter failures that did prevent people from riding, as
>have others here. The only similar failure with the simpler
>alternative shifters is a broken cable, which is visually obvious and
>repairable on the road.
>
Cable failure with integraters shifters can be more serious than with
other shifters if the cable breaks at the head, and the head is deep
inside the shifter. That can be a major chore to get out. And I
think Shimano STI uses cables up relatively quickly. So it's
important to be aware of this, and if shifting deteriorates suddenly
it could be a sign of a fraying cable. Replace it.

Not a big deal IMO unless one is a on a long remote tour or something.

 

[A R:nen]

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> writes:

> Cable failure with integraters shifters can be more serious than with
> other shifters if the cable breaks at the head, and the head is deep
> inside the shifter. That can be a major chore to get out. And I
> think Shimano STI uses cables up relatively quickly. So it's
> important to be aware of this, and if shifting deteriorates suddenly
> it could be a sign of a fraying cable. Replace it.

At least with Ergo, the ends of the loose strands start poking at your
fingers in a semi-painful way that is hard to ignore (except maybe
with thick winter gloves).