Quick Review: DA10

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Onefred, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    I've had some time to spend with my new road bike and thought that some
    might be interested in my findings. I've mostly focused on the differences
    between the Dura-Ace 10 speed group and the Dura-Ace 9 speed group. Here
    they are:

    1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort (caution when using them, wow!)
    2. The new STI levers do not appear any better but they aren't any worse either (supposedly more
    robust, tho)
    3. The extra cassette cog certainly is nice on a road bike especially when you consider the poor
    selection of 10 speed cassettes
    4. The 10s Dura-Ace hubs have more material around the flange and this may make them more radial
    lacing friendly (My eyes probably dilate everytime I look at them so I must really like em')
    5. Can't use a mountain cassette and derailleur like we could on 9 speed and the selection of
    cassettes is very limited! (big bummer)
    6. The freehub is very noisy which makes sneaking up on opponents difficult
    :) Guessing, I'd say that it's about half as loud as a Chris King. If you
    didn't know, the 9 speed DA freehub is nearly silent.
    7. The front derailleur is supposed to be stiffer, but I can't tell a difference. It looks
    stiffer, fwiw
    8. 9 and 10 speed DA shift equally as well, IMO. 10 speed shifts VERY well, but so does 9 speed.
    Both shift quickly and decisively. I swear, I can't tell that 10 speed shifts faster like most
    claim it does.
    9. The 10s chain always rubs against the two nearest cassette cogs and this appears to be normal.

    And then there's the much awaited crank/BB thingamajig. I gotta tell ya that the large chainring is
    a frickin piece of art work. It's beautiful and belongs in the MOMA. As for the crank, I can't tell
    that it is stiffer. I can tell that my new frame or fork is not as stiff and this disappoints me,
    but the crank seems the same to me. But to be fair, when I'm out of the saddle I'm only back to
    about 75% since the accident however I'm at about 90% when hammering it in the saddle. I understand
    that elaborate testing equipment claims the new crank is considerably stiffer but in the real world
    it doesn't seem to matter much. Maybe if your last name is O'Grady, you can appreciate it more.

    Have I forgotten anything?

    Just a quick recap... I really like the new brakes a lot. It would appear that Shimano really gave
    some thought towards improving them. If the hubs weren't so noisy, I'd like them just as much, but
    I'm still happy with them.

    All in all, the new group is very nice but I think that if you weren't obsessed with all these
    details, you'd say that it's just like the 9 speed
    w/better brakes (yes, there are that few improvements). If you currently have a bike w/DA9 and it's
    not worn to pieces then there's no doubt that you still have a very nice ride. If I could trade my
    back pains and new bicycle in for my old one then I would in a heart beat, however, that's not
    possible so while I'm a little dissappointed, I'm still happy with DA10.

    Dave
     
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  2. David

    David Guest

  3. ZeeExSixAre

    ZeeExSixAre Guest

    > 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort (caution when using them, wow!)

    Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?

    > 9. The 10s chain always rubs against the two nearest cassette cogs and
    this
    > appears to be normal.

    Whaaa? I would consider this to be an essential design flaw.

    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training
     
  4. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort (caution when using them, wow!)
    >
    >Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?

    Even going to a new set of the same pads will normally dramatically improve the braking. That cpuld
    account for much (or maybe all?) of the improvement in this case...

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  5. data-<< 9. The 10s chain always rubs against the two nearest cassette cogs and this appears to be
    normal. >><BR><BR>

    Normal for the chain to be on one cog and touch the adjacent..not normal...

    data<< I understand that elaborate testing equipment claims the new crank is considerably stiffer
    but in the real world it doesn't seem to matter much. >><BR><BR>

    Reality, what a concept...

    data<< If the hubs weren't so noisy, >><BR><BR>

    3 pawls instead of 2..what all rear hubs should be...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  6. Evan Evans

    Evan Evans Guest

    Thanks for the review of the DA-10. You seemed very happy with your previous frame. What were you
    riding before? What frame do you have now?
     
  7. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort (caution when using them, wow!)
    >
    > Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?

    That's what I've heard. I don't know that the new compound is the only reason for the increased
    performance, though. I sure am happy that Shimano has some decent brakes now. I think the first
    generation dual-pivot DA brakes (7403) worked better than the last generation.

    > > 9. The 10s chain always rubs against the two nearest cassette cogs and
    > this
    > > appears to be normal.
    >
    > Whaaa? I would consider this to be an essential design flaw.

    I don't know if it is flawed but the cassette will get uglied up a little quicker. It seems to work
    fine, tho.

    > --
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training

    Dave
     
  8. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "Evan Evans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Thanks for the review of the DA-10. You seemed very happy with your previous frame. What were you
    > riding before? What frame do you have now?

    I was riding an earlier Cannondale. I think it was the last frame they made before they began
    bending the seat stays to supposedly improve the ride. I can tell you that I put very many centuries
    on that frame and it never felt uncomfortable (except for my neck, of course). It was super
    efficient and I do miss her. When I stood on the pedals I didn't need to give much effort and I was
    off like a rocket. I could be dead tired and begin pedaling out of the saddle and accelerate very
    well w/little effort. I notice that a lot of fellow riders in the local clubs still ride this or a
    similar generation C'dale. This probably means something...

    I now have the latest from Canyonsnail and I'm not so impressed. It's an Optimus Optimized AOL 3.0
    CAD 3000 something-or-other. When I stand on the pedals not too much happens. I've got to give it a
    lot more effort to make her blast off. I think Cannondale have had to keep modifying their frames so
    that the magazines keep praising them. All the while the product has suffered, IME. This bike is
    about 3/4 of a pound lighter than my old friend, tho! FWIW, C'dale frames are still very well made.

    Of course, these are just my experiences and others may really have found the earlier C'dale frames
    horribly uncomfortable. So perhaps C'dale have improved their product for most of their
    customers....

    My first Cannondale was a Criterium 3.0 frame and it was the stiffest, most rigid and horribly
    uncomfortable bike I've ever ridden. But it sure did go like a bat outta hell! (whatever that means)

    Yes, I think my love affair w/Cannondale is coming to an end. For the moment, I'm mostly concerned
    with the tune of my mtn bike and I'll probably begin looking for a new road frame next fall. Got any
    suggestions??? I'm open to them. I want stiff and rigid but I'm not interested in the geometry of a
    criterium specific frame. And I don't have the money to blow on a C45 either.

    Man, I must admit that this post has got me considering trying to find some NOS C'dale frames
    somewhere.

    Dave
     
  9. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >> 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort
    (caution
    > >> when using them, wow!)
    > >
    > >Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?
    >
    > Even going to a new set of the same pads will normally dramatically improve the braking. That
    > cpuld account for much (or maybe all?) of the improvement in this case...

    Well, perhaps Shimano really have not improved upon the brakes, but I don't remember them being so
    sensitive. Maybe the new brake levers are playing a bigger role now. And yes, my pads where quite
    worn before but when they were new I don't remember them being this strong...

    I suspect that you, Mark, would have tried the new DA by now so your opinions/observations here
    certainly are of value.

    Dave

    > Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  10. Evan Evans

    Evan Evans Guest

    I had a new C-dale way back in 1987 w/ superbe pro! In fact i still have the frame. I liked the bike
    well enuff but I was about 20 years old & could ride anything. Now i ride an 03 Klein & i love this
    bike. A smooth stiff ride. I just ride for fitness so a more experianced rider may have a better
    grasp on what makes a frame good.
     
  11. If you look at the mechanical function of the brake it is easy to see why it generates more power.
    The pivot points give greater leverage.

    Jay

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    "onefred" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >> 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort
    > (caution
    > > >> when using them, wow!)
    > > >
    > > >Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?
    > >
    > > Even going to a new set of the same pads will normally dramatically improve the braking. That
    > > cpuld account for much (or maybe all?) of the improvement in this case...
    >
    > Well, perhaps Shimano really have not improved upon the brakes, but I
    don't
    > remember them being so sensitive. Maybe the new brake levers are playing
    a
    > bigger role now. And yes, my pads where quite worn before but when they were new I don't remember
    > them being this strong...
    >
    > I suspect that you, Mark, would have tried the new DA by now so your opinions/observations here
    > certainly are of value.
    >
    > Dave
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
    >
    >

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  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "onefred" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >> 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort
    >(caution
    >> >> when using them, wow!)
    >> >
    >> >Maybe they switched to a different pad compound, like many have done?
    >>
    >> Even going to a new set of the same pads will normally dramatically improve the braking. That
    >> cpuld account for much (or maybe all?) of the improvement in this case...
    >
    >Well, perhaps Shimano really have not improved upon the brakes, but I don't remember them being so
    >sensitive. Maybe the new brake levers are playing a bigger role now. And yes, my pads where quite
    >worn before but when they were new I don't remember them being this strong...
    >
    >I suspect that you, Mark, would have tried the new DA by now so your opinions/observations here
    >certainly are of value.

    Actually, I'm a Campy guy (and too cheap to buy new brakes for myself anyway). In the end, it's all
    a compromise between mechanical advantage and brake pad movement. The more "powerful" you make the
    brake caliper, the closer it has to ride to the rim (leaving less slack for the inevitable loose or
    broken spoke). I don't know that the new DA brake caliper has changed the mechanical advantage for
    2004 or not - but if they have I'd have to guess that the pads have to be adjusted awfully close to
    the rim (since they were pretty close in 2003). If they haven't changed the mechanical advantage,
    it's unlikely that the brakes would be significantly different than last year.

    Anyone had a chance to do an A/B test on new bikes with 2003 and 2004 DA brakes?

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  13. In article <[email protected]>,
    Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "onefred" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> "ZeeExSixAre" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >> 1. The 10 speed brakes most certainly stop better w/less effort
    >
    > >Well, perhaps Shimano really have not improved upon the brakes, but I don't remember them being
    > >so sensitive. Maybe the new brake levers are playing a bigger role now. And yes, my pads where
    > >quite worn before but when they were new I don't remember them being this strong...
    > >
    > >I suspect that you, Mark, would have tried the new DA by now so your opinions/observations here
    > >certainly are of value.
    >
    > Actually, I'm a Campy guy (and too cheap to buy new brakes for myself anyway). In the end, it's
    > all a compromise between mechanical advantage and brake pad movement. The more "powerful" you make
    > the brake caliper, the closer it has to ride to the rim (leaving less slack for the inevitable
    > loose or broken spoke).

    > 2003). If they haven't changed the mechanical advantage, it's unlikely that the brakes would be
    > significantly different than last year.
    >
    > Anyone had a chance to do an A/B test on new bikes with 2003 and 2004 DA brakes?

    There is a third alternative: the pivot point in the lever could have been moved in such a way that,
    while it didn't change the nominal mechanical advantage (i.e. a movement of the lever of distance x
    still produces the same caliper movement distance y), it does change the leverage your hand has on
    the lever.

    This happened in a big way when Shimano went to SLR levers: I have one SLR and one pre-SLR lever on
    the commuter bike, and it's quite clear that the pivot point on the SLR lever, which is much closer
    to the front of the lever (as mounted on a drop bar) than on the old model, is far easier to get
    leverage on with the human hand, and doubly so from the hoods.

    Done an A/B test on SLR,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  14. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > data-<< 9. The 10s chain always rubs against the two nearest cassette cogs and this appears to be
    > normal. >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Normal for the chain to be on one cog and touch the adjacent..not normal...
    >
    > data<< I understand that elaborate testing equipment claims the new crank is considerably stiffer
    > but in the real world it doesn't seem to matter much. >><BR><BR>
    >
    >
    > Reality, what a concept...
    >
    > data<< If the hubs weren't so noisy, >><BR><BR>
    >
    > 3 pawls instead of 2..what all rear hubs should be...
    >
    >
    >
    This is interesting, it appears that the new DA 10 hubs are NOT compatible with 8 or 9 speed
    cassettes, but they are also noisier than the DA 9. Too bad. One reason I like shimano hubs is
    because they are so quiet. The new DA 10 rear hub is now starting to sound and look alot like Campy
    rear hubs. Besides saving a few grams, I suspect that the DA 9 hubs are arguably the best bike and
    something to look for....
     
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