Quick starts kill my racing

[lanierb]

Originally Posted by rizz .

"A greater limitation to the entire concept, though, is that the basic premise – i.e., that you can adequately describe the training load and the stress it imposes on an individual based on just one number (TSS), completely ignoring how that “score” is achieved and other factors (e.g., diet, rest) – is, on its face, ridiculous. In particular, it must be recognized that just because, e.g., two different training programs produce the same weekly TSS total, doesn’t mean that an individual will respond in exactly the same way."

So says Andy Coggan, and word on the street is that he knows a thing or two about TSS.

Like every metric, TSS has its limitations. As Andy points out, the limitations of TSS mostly show up when you try to use one (or two) numbers to predict overall training response to a complex training program. As a measure of the physiological impact of a given day's workout, however, TSS is really very good.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by lanierb .

Full FTP for an hour is NOT a hard workout for a highly trained athlete. Heck, it's not even a hard workout for me, and my CTL is only 90ish whereas theirs are in the 150 range.

Then your FTP is set too low.

FTP by definition will leave you completely farked out of your head if ridden for one hour when fresh as it's your max sustainable effort for the hour. During a block of training when you're probably not the freshest then doing a full hour at FTP might not even be possible unless you've gained fitness and your FTP is due to be set at something a little higher...

 

[lanierb]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .
Then your FTP is set too low.

FTP by definition will leave you completely farked out of your head if ridden for one hour when fresh as it's your max sustainable effort for the hour.

That's just not right in my experience. As long as you are fit (say, CTL>75 with some good L3-4 work in there), it will leave you wasted for only a few minutes. You're good to go again after a few minutes recovery. I know my FTP to within about 5 watts, which is the best you can really do, and I know what happens when I try to go above it (I blow up and can't finish). I think if you do hard races regularly it's hard not to know your FTP because you essentially get to test it every couple weeks.

As an example, I did the race up Mt Washington on Saturday. I set a new FTP in the process, but the race was only 1:15 in length. TSS was 156 including the warm up ride (*after* adjusting my FTP to the new level). Honestly, I could have easily turned around and climbed the mountain again, though probably not quite as fast, and it's felt ever since like I had a really easy weekend this week (which I did). That doesn't mean I didn't go all out though. I took 8 minutes off of last year's time! (was a bit overweight last year)

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by lanierb .



That's just not right in my experience. As long as you are fit (say, CTL>75 with some good L3-4 work in there), it will leave you wasted for only a few minutes. You're good to go again after a few minutes recovery.

I agree with you. I watch my heart rate while I am doing a FTP test based on power. Hopefully not much before my hour is up my heart rate is at its max. A few more or less watts and I either fail to finish or I am good to go a bit longer. And a few watts - even 10 makes no difference in my training zones.

But I guess some people take the test and the score they get on it more seriously.

 

[moto1]

Well I'm back into the race scene , took the advice and am hitting the warm up much harder. My results have gotten better. The other training and racing I added this year is Time trials . These seem to be making the most improvement in my fitness.

 

[swampy1970]

I missed this one.

Originally Posted by lanierb .

That's just not right in my experience.

Then your experience is wrong. Your threshold wasn't set at where it should have been. Threshold by definition is what you can attain under maximum effort, well rested and supremely motivated. If you didn't feel like hacking up carrots at the end you plain flat out didn't go hard enough.

 

[ambal]

It's not rocket science, quick starts wont hurt you if you're warmed up properly. It's great to see its worked out for you.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by lanierb .

My $0.02: I don't warm up either. As long as I've been riding a lot, say 5 days per week, and rode the day before the race, warming up doesn't help me much. My warm-ups are usually piddling around in L1-2 for about 20-30 mins with 3 30-second bursts at FTP, separated by at least 7-8 minutes. That's all it takes for me.

BTW what do you mean when you say that your race pace is similar to the top guys? Do you mean that your last lap is as fast as their last lap? Not sure that means anything if they're already way ahead of you. Also, maybe the problem isn't warmup but maybe they just have a better top end than you do?

You mention you don't warm up but then describe what is close to one of the various text book warm-ups and say that's all it takes for you. It's a little confusing.

Edit: just took a quick look at the Tomaras and Macintosh paper you linked. The "traditional" warm-up described in Table 1 is brutal, but it's a warmup for a 200m event. No doubt doing this for a road race or TT would be a quick way to kill any chance of success. An interview with Hincapie revealed he would typically do 20-30 mins of slowly ramping up the HR, followed with two 1 or 2 minute long bursts at 100%. Very different than the warm-up described in the paper, but very similar to my warm-up, and pretty close to yours.

I would add for the OP, that the shorter the event the more important some sort of warm-up IMO. If the pipes are still sputtering when the hammer drops, it could be a miserable experience.

 

[moto1]

Won my race ,cat 2 . Warmed up , did 3 intervals , hr 165 . the spun around for 30 minutes. Made a huge difference at the start. thanks to all for the advise.