RAC report on Red lights cars and cyclists

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Chris Malcolm wrote:
>"Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> writes:
>>The last time I went to Edinburgh it was a 6 hour drive from Tunbridge Wells (I think the driver
>>may have broken the law on one or two occasions along the way). Coincidentally, the last time I
>>went to York it was also a 6 hour drive from Tunbridge Wells. So in my mind, they're linked as
>>just being a bloody long way off.
>
>Whereas it takes less than four hours to get from Tunbridge Wells to York by train, four hours in
>which you can read, write, plan, snooze, etc.. Car driving is clearly not a rational pursuit, but
>some kind of obsession or addiction.

Depends on the journey. I've done trips where hiring a car was cheaper than buying a rail ticket
even without adding on taxi journeys at each end of the rail journey (or, in some cases, a night's
accomodation because there wasn't a train getting there at the time I needed to be there but an
early start driving would). Journeys considering the additional costs of using a car I had already
shared between several adults favour the car even more.

 

[Helen Deborah V]

Thus spake [email protected] (Chris Malcolm)

> Incidentally, the majority of cyclists used to stop at traffic lights. I seem to recall that the
> switch from the herd stopping at red to the herd cycling through red happened happened quite
> quickly over a period of several years, and happened at much the same time in both Edinburgh and
> London, although London was (and is) for more congested than Edinburgh, and London car driving
> habits were (and are) very noticeably different. I remember being puzzled at the time about what
> could have caused such a considerable, widespread, and rapid change in cycling fashion, which
> happened close to simultaneously in quite different cycling environments.

> Does anyone else share my memories of this? Has anyone any idea of what might have caused it?

Yes.

The advent of MTBs, which made pavement hopping easy. After pavement hopping, other aspects of the
Highway Code appeared optional...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected] Edgware.

 

[Peter B]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:45:39 +0000 (UTC), "Peter B" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Everyone south of Watford knows "up north" is just past Watford.
>
> The Watford Gap, actually - not the same thing at all (having lived near Watford for most of my
> childhood)

I stand corrected, but it was those pesky Londoners who just said "Watford", with no further
qualification invovling motorway service areas

Pete

 

[Ian Smith]

On Mon, 23 Jun, Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:14:41 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> York is hardly that far north, even in the UK. It has good and short connections to most of
> >> the UK.
>
> >Has it? It's a fair drive for me
>
> About 5 hours from here.

I would guess similar from here, assuming that what you do down the M4 I'd do getting round the M25.
More than I want to do for a weekend away.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Richard Goodman]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Your argument supposes that people must have a point to make in not following the herd. If you're
> not by nature a member of the herd, but tend to make you own mind up about things, then behaving
> differently from the herd is not motivated by making any kind of point to the herd, it's simply
> the accident of disagreeing with the herd on that particular issue, just as "following" the herd
> is not making any kind of point, it's simply the accident of happening to agree with the herd.
> It's called having an independent mind. Many herd members don't understand that concept, and are
> very suspicious and paranoid about non-herd behaviour. "What kind of point is he trying to make?"
> they ask.
>

Well, I agree some people do things differently for no other reason than to be different, but
"making up your own mind" generally means you have a particular reason for acting in a particular
way, which, as you say may or may not conform with what others do. In the case of those who have
made up their mind to observe the full extent of the red phase of traffic lights at all times, even
when they know very well they could safely go, and when most others do go, and despite the personal
inconvenience brought about thereby, I would still say that most of those that do it are doing it to
make a point. They do make up their own mind, certainly, but on the basis of reasons that generally
involve the impact of their behaviour on others and not merely because of personal preference. At
least, that is certainly the impression I get from the advocates of observance whenever this topic
is raised.

Rich

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:38:17 +0100, "Richard Goodman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>In the case of those who have made up their mind to observe the full extent of the red phase of
>traffic lights at all times, even when they know very well they could safely go, and when most
>others do go, and despite the personal inconvenience brought about thereby, I would still say that
>most of those that do it are doing it to make a point.

The "point" might be, however, that if some clueless member of the Church of the Mobile Death
Greenhouse hits them they would rather not allow them the get-out of contributory negligence. That's
my reason for not running lights, anyway.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:28:59 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

[distance to York]

>I would guess similar from here, assuming that what you do down the M4 I'd do getting round the
>M25. More than I want to do for a weekend away.

From here it's minor roads to Watlington, M40 to J15, A46, M69, M1,
A64. From memory, anyway.

It's a long way but worth it for the fun of riding the Trice XXL and the brand-new Trice Meteor
back-to-back, to say nothing of son Michael trying out the Trice Pixie

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

 

[Danny Colyer]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Whereas it takes less than four hours to get from Tunbridge Wells to York by train, four hours in
> which you can read, write, plan, snooze, etc.. Car driving is clearly not a rational pursuit, but
> some kind of obsession or addiction.

As long as you're not the driver, you can do all that while sharing a car with 4 other people. It's
also a lot cheaper.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine

 

[Andymorris]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>
> The advent of MTBs, which made pavement hopping easy. After pavement hopping, other aspects of the
> Highway Code appeared optional...

That and maybe the spread of shared use farcilities.

IMHO the majority of people believe it is legal to cycle on the pavement, even the majority of
people who ride bikes. The majority of people who know its not legal still believe its safer.

Most people at work are amazed that I commute on a 6 lane road and negotiate the roundabout at the
end of it. I've watched people negotiate the same roundabout using pavement + crossings and it
scares me, there's no way they can have time to check for traffic properly.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[Chris Malcolm]

"AndyMorris" <[email protected]> writes:

>Most people at work are amazed that I commute on a 6 lane road and negotiate the roundabout at the
>end of it. I've watched people negotiate the same roundabout using pavement + crossings and it
>scares me, there's no way they can have time to check for traffic properly.

You mean pedestrians who use this pavement and road crossings have to take blind gambles about the
possibility of traffic heading their way?
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 650 3085 School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of
Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

 

[Andymorris]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> "AndyMorris" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Most people at work are amazed that I commute on a 6 lane road and negotiate the roundabout at
>> the end of it. I've watched people negotiate the same roundabout using pavement + crossings and
>> it scares me, there's no way they can have time to check for traffic properly.
>
> You mean pedestrians who use this pavement and road crossings have to take blind gambles about the
> possibility of traffic heading their way?

Pedestrians can stop and turn on the spot, bikes can't.

I mean I see cyclists using the pavement and crossings without stopping and checking over their
shoulders for traffic coming off the roundabout.

I have seen someone I know from work who is an experienced racing cyclist do this, who, previously,
told me that doing a roundabout the vehicular way was too scary for her.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[Pete Bentley]

Dave Larrington <[email protected]> wrote:
>Not in my experience. There aren't many couriers active on my commuting route at the times I'm on
>it, but I would reckon that fifty per cent of cyclists run red lights.

I reckon it's more than that... Especially since the congestion charge encouraged some real suicidal
types onto the road (and pavement), and the recent weather which has made the fair-weather cyclists
dust off their deathtraps.

And my commute runs down the A1 and City Road where you'd expect people to stop at the reds just out
of self preservation.

Pete. any figures yet on accident rates since the congestion charge came in?

 

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:34:43 +0100 someone who may be "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]>
wrote this:-

>The last time I went to Edinburgh it was a 6 hour drive from Tunbridge Wells (I think the driver
>may have broken the law on one or two occasions along the way). Coincidentally, the last time I
>went to York it was also a 6 hour drive from Tunbridge Wells. So in my mind, they're linked as just
>being a bloody long way off.

Travel by train from London to Edinburgh. A little while after leaving York look out for a large
sign by the trackside. This is the half way mark between London and Edinburgh. York really is a long
way south.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:45:39 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Peter B" <[email protected]>
wrote this:-

>Northumberland is nearly at the end of the world

It's a bit south and a fair way east from here.

>and Scotland is foreign,

It is a different country. If you wish to call that foreign, so be
it

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:48:09 -0000 someone who may be Graeme <[email protected]>
wrote this:-

>I've heard it said many times that Northumberland is wasted on the English.

That is undoubtedly true.

>It seems the Scots appreciate it more.

As do mere Honourary Scotsmen, like me.

>Maybe this is partly because the locals get ****** off when southerners refer to "The North"
>meaning Birmingham, Manchester, etc. Have they ever actually looked at a map!?

I think they have trouble with that triangle of England between Carlisle, Berwick and Newcastle.

>Have fun (stirring it)!

I try my best

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:50:54 -0000 someone who may be Graeme <[email protected]>
wrote this:-

>Let's rebuild Hadrian's Wall to keep the riff-raff out (the ones on the south side that is)

Quite right. As it runs from Carlisle to Gateshead the Northumbrians will be on the right side.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Tony W]

"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >Let's rebuild Hadrian's Wall to keep the riff-raff out (the ones on the south side that is)
>
> Quite right. As it runs from Carlisle to Gateshead the Northumbrians will be on the right side.

Well nothings perfect. But at least it would keep most of the Sassenachs where they belong.

 

[Colin Blackburn]

David Hansen wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:50:54 -0000 someone who may be Graeme <[email protected]>
> wrote this:-
>
>
>>Let's rebuild Hadrian's Wall to keep the riff-raff out (the ones on the south side that is)
>
>
> Quite right. As it runs from Carlisle to Gateshead the Northumbrians will be on the right side.
It runs to Wallsend (not surprisingly) which is north of the Tyne, unlike Gateshead.

Colin

 

[Peter B]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:45:39 +0000 (UTC), "Peter B" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Everyone south of Watford knows "up north" is just past Watford.
>
> The Watford Gap, actually - not the same thing at all (having lived near Watford for most of my
> childhood)

Ah, did you write the copy for a Trek ad I saw in a magazine I wouldn't admit to buying? In the
dealer listings Pitsford Cycles in Northants are classified as being in the north ;-)

Pete

 

[Chris Malcolm]

Helen Deborah Vecht <[email protected]> writes:

>Thus spake [email protected] (Chris Malcolm)

>> Incidentally, the majority of cyclists used to stop at traffic lights. I seem to recall that the
>> switch from the herd stopping at red to the herd cycling through red happened happened quite
>> quickly over a period of several years, and happened at much the same time in both Edinburgh and
>> London, although London was (and is) for more congested than Edinburgh, and London car driving
>> habits were (and are) very noticeably different. I remember being puzzled at the time about what
>> could have caused such a considerable, widespread, and rapid change in cycling fashion, which
>> happened close to simultaneously in quite different cycling environments.

>> Does anyone else share my memories of this? Has anyone any idea of what might have caused it?

>Yes.

>The advent of MTBs, which made pavement hopping easy. After pavement hopping, other aspects of the
>Highway Code appeared optional...

Sounds very plausible! And of course MTB's don't need those other silly legal trappings of bell,
reflectors, and lights, i.e., they don't have them, and police don't bother about such things,
"proving" it, giving rise to the general impression that laws don't apply to bicycles.
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 650 3085 School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of
Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205