Race/Hell Report - Around the Bay 30k 2004



And return home to eat the cat.

Gosh, I think we have better imaginations than even
McElroy has!

Heal fast.

>
>
> Bah, I'm sure mcelroy would say that a real runner would
> cut his appendix out with a broken coke can and still
> finish in under 3 hours...
>
> Paul
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>He gets an A+ for moxy but I have to give him a c- to
>>leave the hospital to feed his cat.
>
>
> where i guess the "c" is for compassion? so, with a "c-"
> you're saying that he's slightly below par when it comes
> to compassion.

He just had a bloody appendix operation and from a post op
perspective, doing that much is downright dangerous and damn
lucky if he did not cause some serious complications. I'd
actually give him a D for being delirious. I believe some
other arrangements should/could have been made.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email protected]
 
"SwStudio" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> A policeman on a motorcycle stopped and called an
> ambulance. I got to the hospital and it was soon confirmed
> that I had a ruptured appendix. I was prepped immediately
> for surgery. My bowels were

Wow. Hope you recover quickly. I thought I've had some bad
luck with key races but that tops anything I've experienced.

Heal fast, Andy
 
David's unpleasant experience has highlighted something that
I find rather disturbing if understandable to a degree.

By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands of
runners who must have passed him during this time and yet he
makes no mention of any aid or support from any runner or
spectator.

Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
I'd like to think that I would have stopped if I'd passed
David in his condition but I'm honest enough to admit that
I might not have.

God only knows what I would do if I came across a collapsed
runner 1/2 a mile from the finish line and I was on course
to set a decent PB.

I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that for
us, finishing a race is not a matter of life or death.
However stopping to help a sick runner *could* be a
matter of life or death.

Tim

--
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"Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David's unpleasant experience has highlighted
> something that I find rather disturbing if
> understandable to a degree.
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during
this
> time and yet he makes no mention of any aid or support
> from any runner or spectator.

That's not to say someone didn't see him and leg it off to
find someone who could help. It's not clear to me that
someone actually stopping would be able to do anything
other than get cold and wet themselves. Unless there was a
risk of vomiting.

> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I
would
> have stopped if I'd passed David in his condition but I'm
> honest enough to admit that I might not have.

If I saw someone in a fetal position, I'd *hope* I'd spend
the 10 seconds it takes to find out if they're in serious
trouble or not. Once you *know* someone is in trouble, then
the decision to dump your race is a lot easier!

Ben
 
In article <[email protected]>, Tim Downie wrote:

> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I would have stopped if I'd passed
> David in his condition but I'm honest enough to admit that
> I might not have.

I'd tell the next race official I saw, and hope that
they're suitably equipped to contact the paramedics. Then
I'd keep running.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
 
I am really sorry to hear about your dreadful misfortune. I
am also amazed that it took 10 minutes for anyone to do
anything about it as you lay there.

Still, the rest of us can look on the bright side - you'll
have more time to post here over the next few weeks ...

Whatever. Get well soon. Go easy on yourself. And remember
we're all thinking of you.

Jonathan
 
Tim Downie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during this time and
> yet he makes no mention of any aid or support from any
> runner or spectator.
....

good observation tim. but if you were to apply einstein's
explanation of his theory of relativity, when you're in
*that* much pain, even 5 minutes might seem like 10 minutes.

however, your question still stands. did any other runners
stop to help him? i guess we'll have to wait for his answer.

i haven't had any personal experience of seeing others in
pain yet. maybe because i don't race much. but i think if i
were to see something like that, i would definitely stop.

regards jobs
 
Tim Downie wrote:
>
> I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that for us,
> finishing a race is not a matter of life or death. However
> stopping to help a sick runner *could* be a matter of life
> or death.

A basic premise of trail etiquette (actually, any etiquette)
- anytime, whether it's a race or not - is to stop and help
someone in trouble. Some races even have that in their
guidelines / rules just to emphasize that.

I had two incidents within 2 wks of each other shortly after
my starting trail running and mt biking about 2 yr ago. The
first was a kid who had rolled his 4-wheeler off a trail
(probably close to 100% slope on cut-bank, maybe 100 ft
above river) (hurt his shoulder, but he could climb back up
to trail and was coherent). I didn't have cell phone and/or
paper or pencil (or marker for hand) with me to write down
his parent's phone number (my memory isn't the greatest).
Made mental note to start carrying such.

Two weeks later I was in duathlon - cool and rainy = super
hypothermia weather - when I caught up with a downed biker.
Someone was already with her and had her covered (with the
helper's own jacket probably) and at side of trail. I
stopped to see if there was anything I could do (still
wasn't carrying any 1st aid stuff with me) and was told no
and someone had already gone for help. I also know how
rapidly I get hypothermic under such conditions so didn't
dally. When I hit the turnaround I made sure the volunteer
knew about it, he verified that it had been called in, and
help was on the way.

On Fall Equinox marathon 1.5 yr ago, a runner was "down"
(words of other runner) with hypothermia. Someone stayed
with the person, others went ahead and told the 1st aid
station, which sent a 4-wheeler after the person. One of the
things I remember about that was how long it took for them
to get a 4-wheeler there and out to the person and try to
warm him. They ended up taking him to one of the main 1st
aid stations to try and rewarm him since they weren't having
any luck at that station. No, this was not a back of packer,
it was a wannabe in front half that exceeded his
capabilities. The back of packers had food, fluid, and
clothing with them - prepared to run a marathon for multiple
hours under changing weather conditions.

On almost all my runs now, I carry a space blanket and paper
and pencil in a pocket (remember I said a shell has to have
pockets for me). On almost all runs over 1 hr, I carry some
reasonable emergency gear for myself and someone I might
find downed along the trail. Yea, I don't look road-runner
cool, but I'm very cognizant of where I'm running and
potential hazards and go prepared. (but no, I won't carry a
cell phone since it probably wouldn't work anyway, according
to Murphy's law) I really should get a 1st aid refresher.

Hypothermia is always a *real* danger here, esp. in summer.
Hypothermia can and has killed.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
 
David: Sorry to hear about your day, man. I had forgotten to
check your online results, but you were all the buzz on r.r
that day. Your experience will make me think twice about
running through an injury next time something hurts.

On second thought, it seems like something always hurts.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. Keep us posted.

Brian Jones
 
"Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> David's unpleasant experience has highlighted
> something that I find rather disturbing if
> understandable to a degree.
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during this time and
> yet he makes no mention of any aid or support from any
> runner or spectator.
>
> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I would have stopped if I'd passed
> David in his condition but I'm honest enough to admit that
> I might not have.
>
> God only knows what I would do if I came across a
> collapsed runner 1/2 a mile from the finish line and I was
> on course to set a decent PB.
>
> I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that for us,
> finishing a race is not a matter of life or death. However
> stopping to help a sick runner *could* be a matter of life
> or death.
>
> Tim

Thoughtful points.

All I can say is that we won't truly know until we are in
that situation. I passed runners that were in bad shape
near the end of a marathon, but the curtesy bus was right
there so I kept going. And one race had a runner down due
to dehydration, but again, there was aid (ambulance)
already there.

Like many situations the phrase comes to mind: there, but
for the grace of God, go I.

Run safe out there folks. Ed
 
In article <[email protected]>,
SwStudio <[email protected]> wrote:
>I felt sick all day Saturday with cramps in my abdomen.
>When I awoke Sunday morning, it was pretty bad, but the
>race is important, and I did not think is was that
>serious - I attibuted it to nerves, and maybe the
>beginning of a virus.

Horrible experience, but very glad you're going to be OK,
David. The hardest part will be the next few weeks, when
even walking will be difficult. Hang in there!

Jesse Sheidlower
 
I have to admit that I was one of the runners who apparently
passed him (I assume it was he as it was about 13K). But,
there was another runner (seemed like a friend to me) who
was already staying with him and holding him. And a young
adult who sped off furiously on a bicycle - apparently to
summon help. Saw the bicyclist a few minutes later leading a
police car back to the scene. Everything seemed under
control to me. It would not be accurate to say that he was
there by himself writhing on the ground (at least not when I
came upon the scene).

It appeared to me that he was sitting upright on the curb
(albeit curled and with a face that said he was sick) being
comforted by his friend. It looked like he was simply
nauseous or something not as serious as what he had. That's
the problem with people in distress, whether in races or on
the street. One doesn't know if it's serious or just another
runner having a bad day, like we've all had.

I'm unnerved by how serious it turned out to be but very
relieved that everything was caught in time and that he is
well on the way to healing.

"Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> David's unpleasant experience has highlighted
> something that I find rather disturbing if
> understandable to a degree.
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during
this
> time and yet he makes no mention of any aid or support
> from any runner or spectator.
>
> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I
would
> have stopped if I'd passed David in his condition but I'm
> honest enough to admit that I might not have.
>
> God only knows what I would do if I came across a
> collapsed runner 1/2 a mile from the finish line and I was
> on course to set a decent PB.
>
> I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that for us,
> finishing a
race
> is not a matter of life or death. However stopping to help
> a sick runner *could* be a matter of life or death.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support
> rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
> http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/speyside or
> http://www.justgiving.com/speyside if you're a UK
> tax payer.
 
I saw a guy cramp up very badly at about 20 miles on Sunday.
Another runner stopped and stayed with him until he was
picked up by ambulance. I was talking to the good samaritan
later and he said he stayed 20+ minutes with him. He wasn't
out for a PB and didn't care about the time. He seemed
experienced enough and was carrying basic 1st aid items on
the run. On a remote course he's just the type of runner you
want to meet if you have problems.

--
Colm

"Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> David's unpleasant experience has highlighted
> something that I find rather disturbing if
> understandable to a degree.
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during
this
> time and yet he makes no mention of any aid or support
> from any runner or spectator.
>
> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I
would
> have stopped if I'd passed David in his condition but I'm
> honest enough to admit that I might not have.
 
gr0tt0 wrote:
> I have to admit that I was one of the runners who
> apparently passed him (I assume it was he as it was about
> 13K). But, there was another runner (seemed like a friend
> to me) who was already staying with him and holding him.
> And a young adult who sped off furiously on a bicycle -
> apparently to summon help. Saw the bicyclist a few minutes
> later leading a police car back to the scene. Everything
> seemed under control to me. It would not be accurate to
> say that he was there by himself writhing on the ground
> (at least not when I came upon the scene).
<snip>

That's a relief. My faith in human nature is somewhat
restored. Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support
rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/speyside or
http://www.justgiving.com/speyside if you're a UK tax payer.
 
"Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> David's unpleasant experience has highlighted
> something that I find rather disturbing if
> understandable to a degree.
>
> By his own account he was on the pavement in a fetal
> position, shivering, wet through and in great pain for 10
> minutes. There must have been *hundreds* if not thousands
> of runners who must have passed him during this time and
> yet he makes no mention of any aid or support from any
> runner or spectator.
>
> Hand on heart, I'd have to admit to having passed folk who
> were clearly struggling and suffering muscle cramps etc.
> I'd like to think that I would have stopped if I'd passed
> David in his condition but I'm honest enough to admit that
> I might not have.
>
> God only knows what I would do if I came across a
> collapsed runner 1/2 a mile from the finish line and I was
> on course to set a decent PB.
>
> I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that for us,
> finishing a race is not a matter of life or death. However
> stopping to help a sick runner *could* be a matter of life
> or death.
>
> Tim

What could you or I do by comparison what could a
trained EMT do?

With someone lying on the ground motionless it would
indicate a possible need for CPR which I could do. If that
same person was moving around there would be little I could
do other than provide support.

The most difficult part is deciding what the problem is and
what kind of help is required. We also have to judge the
situation in terms of how available help is. I'd stop to
assist an ultra trail runner off on the side because help
may not arrive for a long time. However on a crowded street
help would be more readily available.

The fact of the matter is that there was sufficient aid
available to care for a person with apendicitis. A cop
called the ambulance, it arrived and took David to the
hospital. Perhaps the cop was allerted to David's condition
by a passing runner but it would appear that further aid
from fellow runners didn't really matter.

Andy

>
> --
> Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support
> rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
> http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/speyside or
> http://www.justgiving.com/speyside if you're a UK
> tax payer.
 
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