Racing cat 5



tonyzackery said:
Eden, you race crits at Seward Park?? Just wondering...

I don't care for Seward Park too much - I'm just a little thing, being a 5' tall, 103lb woman and I feel a little too vulnerable in that crowd of cat5 guys..... Sometimes riding with the guys is cool, but Seward tends to draw out the real serious newbies and it's just a little too nuts for me to want to risk myself or my bike. I've done it a few times, but never really felt all that comfortable. The second time one of the guys who had taken the newbie class wiped out during the class and was riding around all scraped up and bleeding. Not really the best thing to build my confidence in the pack. Plus last year at least, the women's series at Pacific Raceways was on Thursdays too so I was there a lot (I won that series :D )
 
CDAKIAHONDA said:
So...everyone bring your WSBA numbers and licence to Mason Lake, Okay?:)

Skip Mason Lake and go to Sequim instead - its a 3 race series this year too. It's a little further out and on Sunday's so its probably not ever going to be the zoo that mason lake can be. Even the women's 4 field filled up to capacity at 60 riders last year, which is pretty unusual.
 
Eden said:
I don't care for Seward Park too much - I'm just a little thing, being a 5' tall, 103lb woman and I feel a little too vulnerable in that crowd of cat5 guys..... Sometimes riding with the guys is cool, but Seward tends to draw out the real serious newbies and it's just a little too nuts for me to want to risk myself or my bike. I've done it a few times, but never really felt all that comfortable. The second time one of the guys who had taken the newbie class wiped out during the class and was riding around all scraped up and bleeding. Not really the best thing to build my confidence in the pack. Plus last year at least, the women's series at Pacific Raceways was on Thursdays too so I was there a lot (I won that series :D )
Congrats on your success! Don't blame you for not racing at Seward one bit when you're rippin' it up on the road...Good luck for 2007 and I'll see you out at Pacific Raceways on some occasion.
 
= so I had no idea how nice of an impact drafting would have.

It seemed a bit silly to ask this question outside of this thread. I plan to do some crit and road racing starting next spring after having a good first year of riding and learning. Got out for a few group rides, but will continue and am pretty sure I have a team that I'll be joining and can help.

So here here's my question:
  • Given a typical US based Cat 4 / 5 crit
  • Extremely flat or rolling / 40 - 45 minutes
  • Peleton averaging your typical 24 - 25 mph
  • Assume a race of 40 - 50 with a pack of 20 - 30 riders in the main group.
  • Assume the rider is taking his or her pulls and not just sucking wheel.
  • Assume the rideris fair - good but not 100% efficient at drafting. Drafting as your average Cat 4/5 rider.
Based on pack riding, drafting and being "race ready" all helping to increase speed, how much speed in MPH is the typical pack rider likely to gain over their typical solo rides at the same distance?

Are most of you Cat 4 / 5 riders putting out hard training rides between 19 - 21 mph and getting 4 - 5mph of aid from the pack? Or are you riding your hard solo runs faster or slower than that?

Just trying to get a rough estimate on the speed of a larger bubble. In the small group rides I have done, the ability to ride at a pace 3 - 4 miles per hour faster seemed quite easy while tucked in. What is it like when you are amongst a much larger group? I'm not looking for an exact answer or a calculator, just an estimate. Such as, I don't typically ride more than x MPH on my hard solo rides, but I'm able to stay with a 24 to 26mph group for Y minutes.

dave





BikerScott said:
I am far from an expert as this past year was my first year riding and racing (Cat 5) but I quickly found out that average speed means very little in a race. My first race had horrid weather conditions (rain and nasty wind) so everyone was slower. I also hadn't done a lot of group rides so I had no idea how nice of an impact drafting would have. :) Even with it being a flat ride there are still a lot of things that would impact speed (headwind/tailwind, are you in group or riding by yourself, is the group working together or against each other,etc...)

My suggestion would be to just go out and have fun. Try to watch what others are doing and learn from them.
 
daveydave said:
= So here here's my question:
  • Given a typical US based Cat 4 / 5 crit
  • Extremely flat or rolling / 40 - 45 minutes
  • Peleton averaging your typical 24 - 25 mph
  • Assume a race of 40 - 50 with a pack of 20 - 30 riders in the main group.
  • Assume the rider is taking his or her pulls and not just sucking wheel.
  • Assume the rideris fair - good but not 100% efficient at drafting. Drafting as your average Cat 4/5 rider.
Such as, I don't typically ride more than x MPH on my hard solo rides, but I'm able to stay with a 24 to 26mph group for Y minutes.

dave
Worried about getting dropped? Crit racing is about power and position. I don't know what you mean by hard rides, but good training for crits is about muscular endurance. You need to improve your ability to hit it hard and recover. Try doing sets of hard efforts at or just above your anarobic threshhold, followed by recovery periods. Start at numbers based on your fitness level, say 2-5 minute intervals followed by 1-2 minute rests, 4-8 reps followed by a longer rest, and another set. Don't do this everyday, just once a week or so. Get more specific with someone who can advise you "personally," not just "generally" in a forum.

Position is the other key, don't ever "pull a crit" unless your hammering it from the gun in order to blow the poorly warmed up off the back. Attack it. Secondly, look for the key point of the course, usually crits are won into the last corner, but they can also be won on small climbs etc...while many crits end in a sprint, WAITING for a bunch sprint is fine for losers or those protecting GC, but certainly not optimum. Be proactive if you have the fitness, and if you use team tactics in a four race, you'll be in the minority and at a great advantage. Hammer it in turns, and you'll watch the other aggressive riders blow themselves up in the chase, just be willing to sacrifice your own chance for a "team win."

Average speed is worthless, I won two state championships in the fours, and the average speeds in the threes is not always higher, but the accelerations and the attacks come more often, and harder. In local club races I am grouped with the pro-one-twos, and it is even more brutal. The "average won't hurt you, the attack will."

have fun and be willing to suffer.:)
 
I appreciate the race advice / tactics, still interested in an answer to my exact question. <- not trying to be an a$$.

= Worried about getting dropped?

No. I'm sure that's a possibility, for anyone not only me. The interval training you suggested all sounds very sound. I plan to work quite a bit of power / recovery / power/ recover in my early spring training.

= Average speed is worthless,

I understand it's not a TT. I can see that the difference between average speed between a 4 and a 3 is not all that far off. It's the explosiveness that seems to make the difference between the classifications.

Still, the question I'm looking to have answered is a simple scientific one.

Maybe I need to re-phrase it. When you first started riding crits did you have a moment where you stopped to think, "Hey, I can't believe the pace is 25mph and it feels like my usual training runs at 22 mph / or X mph!" What is the typical speed advantage of riding in such a large group vs. a solo effort?

Dave

CDAKIAHONDA said:
Worried about getting dropped? Crit racing is about power and position. I don't know what you mean by hard rides, but good training for crits is about muscular endurance. You need to improve your ability to hit it hard and recover. Try doing sets of hard efforts at or just above your anarobic threshhold, followed by recovery periods. Start at numbers based on your fitness level, say 2-5 minute intervals followed by 1-2 minute rests, 4-8 reps followed by a longer rest, and another set. Don't do this everyday, just once a week or so. Get more specific with someone who can advise you "personally," not just "generally" in a forum.

Position is the other key, don't ever "pull a crit" unless your hammering it from the gun in order to blow the poorly warmed up off the back. Attack it. Secondly, look for the key point of the course, usually crits are won into the last corner, but they can also be won on small climbs etc...while many crits end in a sprint, WAITING for a bunch sprint is fine for losers or those protecting GC, but certainly not optimum. Be proactive if you have the fitness, and if you use team tactics in a four race, you'll be in the minority and at a great advantage. Hammer it in turns, and you'll watch the other aggressive riders blow themselves up in the chase, just be willing to sacrifice your own chance for a "team win."

Average speed is worthless, I won two state championships in the fours, and the average speeds in the threes is not always higher, but the accelerations and the attacks come more often, and harder. In local club races I am grouped with the pro-one-twos, and it is even more brutal. The "average won't hurt you, the attack will."

have fun and be willing to suffer.:)
 
daveydave said:
When you first started riding crits did you have a moment where you stopped to think, "Hey, I can't believe the pace is 25mph and it feels like my usual training runs at 22 mph / or X mph!" What is the typical speed advantage of riding in such a large group vs. a solo effort?

Dave
You have two questions. The first answer is "no." I've never been in any race that I thought felt just like training. Fo me, even the hardest training rides pale in comparison to races. Even easy races hurt like hell. You just get used to it. At some point you will have that "wow" moment when you realize you are going pretty darn fast and the effort is not killing you. Then some bonehead will push the pace or there will be an accelleration and it will start hurting again. I remember thinking in my first real crit that I couldn't believe I was going up hill at 25 mph. Felt like I was just being sucked along by the bunch. A few laps later I was dropped.

Second, a typical advantage of the bunch over an individual is probably between 3 and 5 mph. Just a guess. I think alot of this depends on the size and motivation of the group as well as the course.
 
Bobby Lex said:
If you spend half your time doing 18 mph and half your time doing 28 mph, your average speed will be 23 mph, but that would be a completely different 23 mph average than, for example, a ride that held a steady 23 mph pace from start to finish. The first instance would be exhausting. The second would be easy.

As has been pointed out, bike racing is characterized by surging, especially in a criterium because of the constant cornering.

The physical hardship doesn't come from the average speed, it comes from the repeated accelerations which have the cumulative effect of wearing you out.

Ways to deal with that are to do interval training, stay up near (but not at) the front so that the "yo-yo" effect is lessened, and learn to corner as fast as possible without touching the brakes.

There's a huge learning curve in bike racing. So the sooner you start, the sooner you'll get better at it. Bike racing is a rush!

Bob
Once again, great advice above.

Also, be careful when you start racing in the cat 5's. A LOT of crashes take place here b/c people are overly aggressive before they know how to ride a race.

It is okay to try to get a "feel" for the "peloton" of bike racing before feeling like you have to attack and go crazy.

Too many crashes happen in these races b/c new riders are not careful enough.

Have fun (it is a ton of fun) but just be cautious the first few times and watch your line, don't overlap the wheel in front of you, and try not to grip the handlebars like a jackhammer as it will make your movements really jerky and not smooth.

Once again, race as much as you can b/c experience is the best teacher on this one!