Racing & Training with a Powermeter - Strength training comments



giannip

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I've been reading "The Book" recently, while planning next year's season.

In the Quadrant Analysis section, there is a reference to strength training, e.g weight training and how recent research suggests it may not be as beneficial for a cyclist as we think.

I'm looking at including some gym work in my plan but just wonodering if this is necessary now.

I might just do some basic core strength stuff minus the wight training bit & just focus more on the bike as opposed to what I did last year (3 / week in the gym).

Any thoughts?
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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I come from an extensive lifting background and started in cycling in 2004. I still lift because my goals are different than most on this forum.
My opinion even as much as I love lifting is that it is not beneficial to cycling at all. If anything it can be a general distraction for most competitive cyclist.

1. It is very difficult to be progressive in both and if you are it will be extremely difficult to recover.
2. If you lift this winter and then switch primarily to cycling in the spring you will quickly lose any small amount of strength you gain anyway. If that is the case you have to ask is it even worth doing. It may be better to just focus on cycling exclusively.
3. Depending on your genetics you may gain lean mass that will impede your racing efforts. Just recently my body weight went up another 3 pounds and my body fat decreased a little. I don't even lift as hard as I used to lift and I still gain lean mass. That lean mass gained through lifting will not be useful to endurance cycling. Negative impact to watts/kg.


I could list some other reasons to consider, but those are just of few from my observation and opinion.

Again I do lift, but I lift with the knowledge it is not helping my cycling. I mentioned on another thread that I wish I had time to bump from 2x20 to 3x20 on my intervals and I could do that but I would have to sacfrice time in lifting. If I were to make the sacrifice and put in the additional time to cycling I would do better in cycling. That statement is not an opinion that is a fact.

I personally do not see an issue with core training if you have time since it is very unlikely you would gain any mass while training the core.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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No offense OP, but this thread makes me laugh with how recently it comes on the heels of a couple other threads discussing the same thing...

The two sure-fire ways to get some debate started - start a thread on the perfect pedaling technique or start one discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of weight training as it pertains to cycling performance...

A quick search will have you reading for weeks...
 

giannip

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Quote:Originally Posted by tonyzackery .


No offense OP, but this thread makes me laugh with how recently it comes on the heels of a couple other threads discussing the same thing...


The two sure-fire ways to get some debate started - start a thread on the perfect pedaling technique or start one discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of weight training as it pertains to cycling performance...


A quick search will have you reading for weeks...





Glad I amuse you.

Maybe if you read the title, it will give you a clue as where my question comes from.

If you read the post,you will see me mention that I did gym last year and trying to get clarification on the comments in the book.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by giannip .

I've been reading "The Book" recently, while planning next year's season.

In the Quadrant Analysis section, there is a reference to strength training, e.g weight training and how recent research suggests it may not be as beneficial for a cyclist as we think.

I'm looking at including some gym work in my plan but just wonodering if this is necessary now.

I might just do some basic core strength stuff minus the wight training bit & just focus more on the bike as opposed to what I did last year (3 / week in the gym).

Any thoughts?
Yeah, my mistake - I had it ALL wrong with my comment above/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif...as you were...
 

acoggan

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Jul 4, 2003
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Originally Posted by giannip .

I've been reading "The Book" recently, while planning next year's season.

In the Quadrant Analysis section, there is a reference to strength training, e.g weight training and how recent research suggests it may not be as beneficial for a cyclist as we think.
All I would add is that the research isn't recent, i.e., lots of cyclists have been lifting weights the past couple of decades despite what the scientific literature has shown. I have my opinions as to why that is true, but in the interests of diplomacy will keep them to myself.
 

DancenMacabre

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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .


The two sure-fire ways to get some debate started - start a thread on the perfect pedaling technique or start one discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of weight training as it pertains to cycling performance...
And what, Tony, is it a sign of, when these two certain debates topics commence?

Yeah, it must be winter/off-season!
 

giannip

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Originally Posted by acoggan .



All I would add is that the research isn't recent, i.e., lots of cyclists have been lifting weights the past couple of decades despite what the scientific literature has shown. I have my opinions as to why that is true, but in the interests of diplomacy will keep them to myself.
I'd personally be interested in your opinion.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by acoggan .



All I would add is that the research isn't recent, i.e., lots of cyclists have been lifting weights the past couple of decades despite what the scientific literature has shown. I have my opinions as to why that is true, but in the interests of diplomacy will keep them to myself.
Diplomacy in anarchy...

A novel concept.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by DancenMacabre .




And what, Tony, is it a sign of, when these two certain debates topics commence?

Yeah, it must be winter/off-season!

... erm, classic threads like "pealling up..." and at least two of the "gym" threads were started in April and May. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

The sure fire way to get a classic thread started is to use those topics and stick a nice spelling error in the title. Maybe I should start a thread called "Powercranks.... three years and testing." I'm not sure that even I'm that cruel.
 

frenchyge

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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Maybe I should start a thread called "Powercranks.... three years and testing." I'm not sure that even I'm that cruel.

Make it "Powercranks..... tree years and testing" and you'd have a winner.
 

swampy1970

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Originally Posted by frenchyge .




Make it "Powercranks..... tree years and testing" and you'd have a winner.
You may have the less than eagle eyed readers stumped and think that you're barking mad but I'll leaves it at that.
 

five3x11

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Two words, Injury Prevention.

Cycling is dangerous sport, involving pavement, cars, sketchy riders, etc. Any time you can spend in the gym in the winter reinvigorating those neglected "non-essential to cycling" muscles groups is a benefit to yourself during a crash. If done properly, any weight gains will be short-term or non-existent.

For me, it comes down to not having to worry about throwing out my back when I pick up a box in the garage because I've taken the time keep my whole body in shape.
 

fergie

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I coach several Downhill cyclists where crashing is a part of the game. There is nothing one can do in the weights room to prepare them for the crashes they sustain. It is time that would be better spent developing skill, if well skilled roadies should teach others and everyone should practice safe cycling when out on the roads.
 

acoggan

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Quote:
Originally Posted by five3x11 .

If done properly, any weight gains will be short-term or non-existent.



If no hypertrophy is induced, then any and all strength gains must be due to neural adaptations...which do not transfer well to other movements (as, e.g., anyone who has trained on one brand of gym equipment at home then tried out another while traveling will readily recognize).
 

bbrauer

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Feb 27, 2007
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Originally Posted by fergie .

I coach several Downhill cyclists where crashing is a part of the game. There is nothing one can do in the weights room to prepare them for the crashes they sustain. It is time that would be better spent developing skill, if well skilled roadies should teach others and everyone should practice safe cycling when out on the roads.

Disagree. There's indeed a benefit to having overall strength and balance throughout the kinetic chain. Everyone, regardless of whether they're cyclists or not, should be working to maintain functional strength and correcting muscle imbalances and postural abnormalities.

Another factor that's relevant to cyclists, particularly cyclists who are likely to crash, is what weight bearing strength exercises do to bone density. Many cyclists who have been riding for years begin to lose bone density, particularly in the upper body. This makes them more likely to break that collarbone when they go down....or suffer back issues from weakening vertebrae. A strong back and core can help a downhiller with his initial jump to gain speed, and upper body muscle density, tendon strength and strong bone development can help prevent injury when he inevitably goes down.

I understand specificity to one's sport, but there almost seems to be a dogmatic phobia of anything that hints at weight training.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by five3x11 .

Two words, Injury Prevention.

Cycling is dangerous sport, involving pavement, cars, sketchy riders, etc. Any time you can spend in the gym in the winter reinvigorating those neglected "non-essential to cycling" muscles groups is a benefit to yourself during a crash. If done properly, any weight gains will be short-term or non-existent.

For me, it comes down to not having to worry about throwing out my back when I pick up a box in the garage because I've taken the time keep my whole body in shape.
Maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about how you lift those boxes rather than devoting a large amount of time training to prevent injuries caused by 'bad form' during unplanned events.
 
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swampy1970

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Originally Posted by bbrauer .

Disagree. There's indeed a benefit to having overall strength and balance throughout the kinetic chain.
The kinetic chain.

Sounds fancy.

Enlighten me, please.
 

fergie

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Originally Posted by bbrauer .

Disagree. There's indeed a benefit to having overall strength and balance throughout the kinetic chain. Everyone, regardless of whether they're cyclists or not, should be working to maintain functional strength and correcting muscle imbalances and postural abnormalities.

We have covered this before but no form of cycling is limited by strength. Functional strength is a marketing term and has no physiological basis. A quick perusal of the medical literature on the etiology of non traumatic cycling injuries shows us that muscle imbalances do not even feature as a cause. Postural abnormalities should be taken on a case by case basis.

Another factor that's relevant to cyclists, particularly cyclists who are likely to crash, is what weight bearing strength exercises do to bone density.

Perhaps Andy can better sum this one up having lived with Osteopenia but impact exercise is preferred over weight bearing exercise.

Many cyclists who have been riding for years begin to lose bone density, particularly in the upper body. This makes them more likely to break that collarbone when they go down....or suffer back issues from weakening vertebrae. A strong back and core can help a downhiller with his initial jump to gain speed, and upper body muscle density, tendon strength and strong bone development can help prevent injury when he inevitably goes down.

You coach any downhill cyclists? Through a combination of skills training, BMX, Motocross, Pump Track, Shuttles and other special drills they develop all the fitness they need.

I understand specificity to one's sport, but there almost seems to be a dogmatic phobia of anything that hints at weight training.

No just the realisation after many years of coaching and close reading of the literature that the majority of cyclists, especially the time crunched ones are best served by seeking gains by riding the bike.
 

jsirabella

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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .




Maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about how you lift those boxes rather than devoting a large amount of time training to prevent injuries caused by 'bad form' during unplanned events.
+1 for swampy!!